No matter how you buff it, no matter what you do, it still remains that you are literally telling the enemy "HEY, I'M GOING TO BE IN YOUR JUNGLE OFTEN! FEEL FREE TO COLLAPSE ON ME AND GET A FREE KILL!"
It doesn't matter if it give double gold, or any other buff, because no matter what you're literally announcing to the enemy that you're going to counter jungle.
SpecterVonBaren9 votesWhat if they made it so it gives a smite that when used on a greater jungle monster (As in, only the big monsters for each camp) if you kill that monster then it will come back with full health but under your control? This monster could give you vision of the area and in the case of monsters like Gromp or Wolves, it also has a version of its own buff tied to it (So Gromp has his poison on attack and Wolf would have a greater vision range).
This makes it so you can use this monster in a gank, or for farming your jungle, or for setting a trap for your enemy jungler by having this monster give you vision and then work with you to attack them in their jungle. It could just use the simple mechanic that Annie has for controlling Tibbers since all monsters basically just use auto attacks to fight.
Orbv3 votesI like the idea of it becoming a non-neutral monster, but I don't think control is the way to go. As is, they are pretty weak outside of the early game. So then it limits you to only early game counterjungling because late anyone can kill it in a couple of seconds.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesMost of the credit for the idea is yours since I essentially just copied your overall idea and added detail.
Aazzlano1 votesOr what about if it were something really toxic as far as counterjungling, to make an actual impact. This would give it some real identity.
Something like... killing neutrals in the enemy jungle (after smiting).... the next time after respawn and they are smitten by opponent or are killed , you get the smite buff for it (as well as not giving the opponent a buff for smiting it)
This would make counterjungling truly rewarding. Not only by messing with their camps THAT time (by stealing their gold/exp and forcing them to wait for respawn), but by leaving a lasting impression for when they actually do respawn. Think about it, you smite their wolves and a few minutes later they kill them again, giving you another wolf ghost. That would be actually WORTH buying that smite upgrade. Or choosing to spec into the this particular jungle item over the others to deny their gromp buff against a tank jungler, and taking it for yourself. Same thing with the vision proc on Razorbeaks. So much strategic advantage out of counterjungling like this, while you lose the ability to smite champions (if you would have bought chilling or skirmisher) and don't get the sustain/aoe/stun from Trailblazers. It would give it an actual role with huge downsides too since it would have zero combat potential (even trailblazer has combat potential, smiting a neutral in the jungle for the sustain during a fight can be huge, especially if you are trying to steal red and get both the healing effects).
Note that I would suggest against stealing the actual red/blue buffs if they are killed later, but still keeping the smite buff from them (hp and mana restore) and keep it uninteractive with scuttle and epics.
Decrit1 votesOk for reviving, not okey for controlling. Even only having it under your vision with no means to control it makes it valuable for counter-jungling ( since you see the enemy) and as counter-counter jungling ( since you see if the enemy comes). Sure thing is that it overlaps with the smite wolf bonus, but i am fine with a double benefit for invasion and not invasion. A bit like Trailblazer, is good for invading too because it clears fast and most of time you need only that.
ChaosThief5 votesThey should make the smite bonus apply to your own jungle, to make it rewarding for speed clear champions to pick.
What Is Smite4 votesRanger's Trailblazer does a better Job with it's Aoe blast and stun making better for both normal jungling and counter-jungling since you can clear the camps faster than the enemy can
ChaosThief5 votesPoacher's knife, if it applied to your own jungle, would provide bonus gold instead of a faster clear.
So it would be a trade off.
What Is Smite2 votesThat would be a decent trade off since the item would pay for itself much faster but that would just put it on par with the other smites, the real issue is if it would be worth getting when you enchant the jungle item since usually you see Challenger's and Chilling more often than not and then Ranger's shows up sparsely with an enchant in the majority of games
ChaosThief1 votesAre you implying you want poacher's knife to be broken? The point is to try and put in on par with the other smites, not make it replace the others.
Sugar Mantis2 votesPoacher's smite is really weak, and offers very little reward for such a high risk. It was a cool idea, but with the meta the way it is... Its just no good.
RottedApples2 votesIt's not that poachers is a bad idea (a bad smite? yes, but idea? no) It's just that counter jungling itself is not very good
TheI3igDaddy2 votesMy idea would be that you just double the Smite damage for each level. No combat bonuses. A way of saying 'Do you really want to contest drag with me alive?' .
Eh, it's not the best idea, but I feel like it'd at least be better than the current Knife.
The Yetii Rider2 votesMy idea would be that you just double the Smite damage for each level. No combat bonuses. A way of saying 'Do you really want to contest drag with me alive?' .
Eh, it's not the best idea, but I feel like it'd at least be better than the current Knife.
Yes, because Nunu being able to deal 3000 true damage instantly is totally fair.
Duchess of Deer2 votesbu that's nunu's niche can he do anything else besides securing objectives
The Yetii Rider1 votesbu that's nunu's niche can he do anything else besides securing objectives
Absolutely. Nunu deals around 40 magic damage on-hit, he has an undodgeable slow, he's great at taking towers with his speed buff and second dragon, and his enormous AOE slow is great for keeping the enemy team off balance and wasting flashes.
DrCyanide2 votes
- available wherever creep exist
- available wherever enemy champions exist
- available wherever enemy champions exist
- available only where enemy creep exist
Poachers knife is the only smite enhancement that is restricted to a certain portion of the map. Until that changes, I don't think it will be worth picking.
Partholonian1 votesTBH, neither of the ones that don't improve your chance to kill an enemy while ganking them are worth picking atm. Champions who really shouldn't be jungling in the first place can pretend they can jungle with trailblazer, but they're not really effective at it.
For all practical purposes, there's the smite that gives you more damage in a gank, and the smite that gives you more cc in a gank. The smites that give you nothing in a gank aren't worth taking when 4 out of 5 players agree that a jungler who doesn't frequently gank and create kills is worthless.
SouL1ess1 votesAnd it still doesn't help you jungle better/faster/more sustain, therefore making you weaker at jungling/ganking at any point in the game.
Rebonack1 votesJust make all of Poacher's bonuses apply to both sides of the jungle. That would make it the dedicated farming jungle item.
Stillname1 votesActually when you put it that way it sounds like its an item that could be pretty good for the game.. looking at your opponents build and adjusting your play style accordingly? sounds like counterplay
Not saying the item actually does this atm.
Beldori1 votesWhat makes counter jungling work like it did in earlier seasons like s2 was the fact that most the exp and gold was in the big monsters and the fact camps took so long to respawn more so if they weren't cleared quickly. Biggest trick back in s2 was to walk over to the enemy wraiths after taking blue (or wolves if you had a super fast clear time like shyv) smite the big one killing it out right and going back to clear your jungle, it would set them back decently for first gank and force them to spend time and health clearing it for minimal rewards.
Reason this doesn't work now is camps respawn quickly plus exp and gold distribution make it so snaking a big monster isn't a blow much anymore, swiping red/blue buff isn't worth much anymore other than denial for champs that need it to do well, those that don't just go clear another camp for exp and gold to catch up quick.
How to make poachers work would be to make poachers smite instant kill a big monster in the enemy jungle(have it do just a large chunk of health against red and blue buff) and double the respawn timer on the camp(and possibly have it leach all the exp and gold from the camp so the clear gives nothing but could be OP). Maybe make red buff and blue buff worth more in both the buff and monster so it actually affects you to lose it not shrug and start clearing other camps. Right now counter jungling is pointless unless your dominating their jungler and their team does nothing to help them.
FistOfSharkiesha1 votesIt astounds me that they're just ignoring this and keeping this pile of shit in the game yet they refuse to keep magus and leave magic junglers with more than 1 item. Melee gets devourer and warrior and magic gets runeglaive which is worthless for manaless mage junglers like Mordekaiser and Rumble (yes they work, rumble works amazingly well).
Remlap12231 votesOP is completely right. You can make Poaching Smite Karthus ult all jungle camps, and it'd still be bad because of the fact that you know that your opponent is going to try to counterjungle you. Because you announce your playstyle in your character build, it's automatically the worst smite, and always will be.
Arkna1 votesIt's not just announcing intent, it's that counterjungling only offers small, temporary rewards (Denying a strong level 3 ganker his second buff, for example), and investing more than very lightly into this option is a losing proposition. You could pick a smite with more versatility, still engage in opportunistic counterjungling, and not sacrifice the strength of your options.
Kolinichu1 votes is okay!
Yes, it gives away your intentions... but it is you in the end, that decides when you counter jungle. (See jungler at bot trying to gank: get some tasty creeps in top jungle.) They may ward... but pink wards, Sweeper and raptor buffs are your friends! :)
B1naryB0t1 votesI still say it should hold stealth ward charges because if you're in the enemy jungle you need some damn vision.
ComannderShepard1 votesmaybe they should make it so you get bonus movespeed for smiting any camp + scuttle regardless of which jungle you're in. + Give you more bonus gold if you get it from their jungle
Meep Man1 votesMaybe Poacher's Knife could give the current bonus, but also shroud your items, making them unable to be seen or something like that. Make it transform to the enemy eye into a different smite item.
Vibrating Hotdog1 votesSo does this mean that 
is the best item on 
jungle?
Jungle Lux God1 votesTo be honest, if the reward outweighed the risk, then I would buy Poacher's Knife.
Like 5X the gold might make it playable. You get caught out in the enemy jungle? Doesn't matter, you as much, if not more gold, from the camp you stole (eventually more because of death bounties) and the enemy jungler is down a camp. You don't get punished? You win the game because of how much gold you get to snowball the game. Of course it would probably be snowbally as hell and still has the problem of the opposing team knowing that you are going to be counterjungling.
Of course, telegraphing your gameplan is but one of many problems that Poacher's Knife has. Other problems Poacher's has include, but are not limited to:
-It's useless if you are behind. Stalker's and Skirmisher's both give extra combat presence, while Ranger's gives extra sustain so you can impact the map more and waveclear when you need it. Poacher's does nothing on your own jungle creeps and does nothing to enemy champions.
-It's not as useful when you are ahead. Stalker's and Skirmisher's give extra combat presence to snowball leads, Ranger's gives extra sustain to push for objectives or kills farther, but being ahead means that the enemy jungle is at the mercy of your entire team, and you are not guaranteed to get value out of Poacher's Knife.
I probably missed a few reasons (there are a whole lot more reasons to not get Poacher's Knife, but I can't think of a whole lot more that haven't been mentioned), but these two reasons and it telegraphing how you are going to play the game are to two biggest issues with the item.
