For someone with a well put together kit, why does Nidalee still get a Q that can deal 800+ damage?

Rew711·May 17, 2015·19 votes·1,266 views

She gets a W that not only deals damage and gives a bonus to her cougar but it also gives sight to opponents.

She gets a E that heals her.

She gets free cougar abilities that do deal damage.

Just why?

Corki's ultimate doesn't even deal this. Sure, he's a marksman but at least his is is missable.

The range for the spear is too wide and it travels too fast. I'd rather a slow one with small range so that we can end this oppressiveness.

39 Comments

MatezoideMay 17, 201515 votes

> Nidalee > Well put together kit

Kek

TheBlackProphetMay 17, 20157 votes

The range for the spear is too wide and it travels too fast. I'd rather a slow one with small range so that we can end this oppressiveness.

then it wouldnt be nid anymore, her spear is slow chances are you were at the wrong place at the wrong time and you were hit at the end of nids spear range

Rew711May 17, 20153 votes

I don't care if she won't be Nidalee anymore. The low cool down, the dumb range, the power... the buff it gives. Something has to get a nerf. I don't like having to dodge her spears out of fear. I want to be a tank and go right in and kill her. As an assassin, all she needs is poke, not an ultimate she can use whenever. Why can't the dumb % AP go up to 100%? Why can't her damage be reduced to 400 at most? Why the 450 and 120% AP. Now, every hit from afar will deal from 300 + 80% to the 450 + 120% AP. It's also very hard when some champions don't even get that much magic resist yet they have magic pen that can bypass 50% of it.

qetzelMay 17, 20153 votes

May I ask what your favourite champion is and what you think is iconic about them?

Rew711May 17, 20152 votes

My favorite champion...

well, my first favorite was Udyr when I was level 5. He was hard but I played him for about until level 25 to 27 and started looking for another favorite as games got to easy since I knew Udyr in and out.

I then sought Graves because he looked cool. He was not easy.

And lastly, and strangely, Taric then Gnar then Bard ...

What I thought was iconic about Udyr was not the power but the fact that he didn't have a ultimate after I later realized with other champions. I also thought it weird he would never level all his abilities which meant only 2 or 3 could be fully leveled.

I guess when I look for a champion, I don't want them to be so easy to use. If I can just go in like I did with Zed on a first time basis and come out with a Quadra and like 2 deaths by the end, I feel let down.

Nidalee is not easy, by any means, but in my first game as her, I never thought she could be so powerful in late game. If I were to just throw a spear, a minion would die, or half the life of an opponent would be gone. I could then go cougar and W+E+Q and then leap out with no hassle, go human and E myself then leave some traps before returning to base to get more items... I don't like losing, but if an enemy is mercilessly going on a killing spree with no way to stop it... Now I'm just ranting......................

qetzelMay 17, 20155 votes

So what would you think if Riot changed Udyr so that he would have an ultimate? And then said "I don't care if he won't be Udyr anymore?

That is about as severe as the nerf you are suggesting to Nidalee is. The spears have to be at least somewhat impactful or she won't be Nidalee.

Rew711May 18, 20151 votes

I can see your point but I'm just asking for what they did to Corki's ultimate so that I don't feel like trash because I couldn't ban Nidalee over Katarina, Hecarim, and Ahri. You can nerf anything else except the cool down on her Q to make it less of a hassle on others. Lets say this, what if they had it so that if you mark a champion with the W, you're javelin will deal the bonus 450 (120%) if his, close or far, and we can tone down her damage to a nice and safe 215 (60%) at max rank. It will not stop the OP Q but it will stop the constant Q damage that she deals. It can also work if she throws a Q, the opponent is marked, and she throws another Q, but the mark will vanish and she'll have to throw another to reactivate it.

TemplarZAMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I can see your point but I'm just asking for what they did to Corki's ultimate so that I don't feel like trash because I couldn't ban Nidalee over Katarina, Hecarim, and Ahri. You can nerf anything else except the cool down on her Q to make it less of a hassle on others. Lets say this, what if they had it so that if you mark a champion with the W, you're javelin will deal the bonus 450 (120%) if his, close or far, and we can tone down her damage to a nice and safe 215 (60%) at max rank. It will not stop the OP Q but it will stop the constant Q damage that she deals. It can also work if she throws a Q, the opponent is marked, and she throws another Q, but the mark will vanish and she'll have to throw another to reactivate it.

If you face nidalee the tank should have around 200 mr or higher and some good health and just run into her but as for me I play ashe who is super squishy and even without the ashe buff when it came to late game I would run straight into the spear and kill her. The 3 second cooldown is long enough for you to take one hit and kill her if you charge in without fear, but everyone fears the spear and runs back which is why lots of people take extra damage. Also helps if you know counter play, everyone takes adc then goes maximum damage output or they get a GA. Here is where my build differs and why I can carry against 3 high AP Champs while enemy adc goes poof. If they take GA it lowers their potential damage output so I end up winning trades against them by having one more adc item then them, and when they die as long as our team is in a massive team fight she basically revives just to be nuked to death by things like a nidalee spear.

Then you get full damage adc's who can wipe your entire team, but one nidalee spear from max range and she starts running away allowing nidalee time for her cd to pass before throwing one more spear to finish you off or have rengar stop hiding and eat you.

Me I go for antimage build and tank things like spear and do damage, my attack speed ends up lower then the other adc's causing me to lose trades to other adc's late game, but in the end I can tank through a katarina ulti and a nidalee spear then double kill both of them allowing the mages to deal with the adc and the tanks, lots of tanks these days seem to have ap damage, udyr is crowd controllable but he can be a beast at times.

Nidalee spear is balanced in that it moves in a straight line and if you face it without fear it becomes just a really strong autoattack with an attack speed of 0.3. People forget their is a difference between OP and Annoying. Nidalee is annoying not OP just like old teemo shrooms could one hit kill with the old 600 + 0.8 AP ratio that they nerfed to 450 + 0.4 AP ration to allow people to walk through at least 2 before dying.

Rew711May 18, 20151 votes

Just want to point out that 200 (even 400 MR) is not enough to block her ability when she can get 50% magic pen.

OJ191May 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

May I ask what your favourite champion is and what you think is iconic about them?

pretty sure javelin toss is iconic for being overpowered as fuck

if I was to say anything was iconic for nidalee it would be the free cougar form abilities.

ZedexMay 18, 20151 votes

Pantheon also throws spears as his main mechanic aside from his ulti (his are toxic)

Malix FarwinMay 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

then it wouldnt be nid anymore, her spear is slow chances are you were at the wrong place at the wrong time and you were hit at the end of nids spear range

if a champion whole identity is defined as spam long range skill shot all game then there is something inherently wrong with that champion unless you are trying to say 1 trick ponies are good for this game.

NarasimhaMay 18, 20153 votes

if a champion whole identity is defined as spam long range skill shot all game then there is something inherently wrong with that champion unless you are trying to say 1 trick ponies are good for this game.

item 3070 Ziggs Xerath Velkoz

kile147May 18, 20151 votes

Except her max range spear does around twice as much damage as any of their poke abilities. I don't mind Nidalee as much as a lot of people do, but the damage on her max range spear is still oppressive. One spear at max range can completely remove you from a fight because it just chunked 1k health from you. At least with all the others you listed getting hit by a skill shot gives you an opportunity to try to heal it back.

NarasimhaMay 18, 20152 votes

Its can also be body blocked. Coupled with Nida's lack of cc, and its pretty damn hard to hit a spear at max range, especially if the opponent has a half competent front line.

Skia AsteriMay 17, 20154 votes

Corki ult also cost basically no mana and is AoE.

Rew711May 18, 20151 votes

rank 1 deals less damage than AD corki fires in basic attacks, the third deals 50% extra of that 150, so you dish out 225 (probably + 50 AD) damage to an enemy.

rank 2 deals 180, so you can deal 270 (probably 80 by now bonus) to the enemy.

and the last rank deals 240 (on the third it can deal 360) + possibly 120 bonus AD in damage.

So it takes 60 mana to get a third, (6 seconds to load) and it then has a limit to how many he can hold.

So, rank 3 Corki sends out around 480 or more while Nidalee sends out an easy 400 or more damage for 90 mana.

She gets 1500 range, he gets 1225 range.

If Corki misses, that bonus 50% is gone and its just 360 or more damage compared to her's.

TheXtractorMay 18, 20151 votes

Never heard of AP corki :D?

ZedexMay 18, 20151 votes

Ya, Corki needs a rework without a doubt. Only playable after buffs then gets nerfed shortly after (see his Wiki page, Riot hates Corki)

Big Bang BobMay 18, 20153 votes

She has a 45% winrate. (48% ranked)

I feel like Nidalee is some old lady everyone swears is evil and is trying to beat up. Without buff in compensation, there is no way she should get nerfed.

kile147May 18, 20151 votes

I agree that nerfs would be bad, but they can't buff her because her spear is oppressive. They need to make her spear deal poke damage comparable to other poke mages, and then maybe she can be allowed to be buffed.

LorinneMay 18, 20151 votes

If they nerfed her spear damage, they would have to buff the missile width again. It's already reasonably hard to hit and reasonably easy to juke and does less damage for easier, close-range shots. The damage is relatively proportional to the skill it takes to hit. Not that bad close up but fairly punishing from far away.

kile147May 18, 20151 votes

No they wouldn't, that's my point, they need to move some of that power to someplace else in her kit. I'm not saying it isn't balanced, it is, but I am saying that 450 (+120% AP) at max range is too much at once to deal with. Xerath's ArcanoPulse does 240 (+75% AP) with a similar cooldown and when he builds AP that can do some serious damage, yet Nidalee does more than 50% more than that. No ability in the game should be able to 1 or 2 shot a target, it's that simple (not including very fed vs very starved cases). No matter how much skill it takes to use it feels awful to be on the receiving end of something like that.

LorinneMay 18, 20153 votes

It always feels awful to be on the receiving end of damage. MR is a thing. Banshee's is a thing. Wards are a thing. Shields are a thing. Dodging is a thing. Tanks bodyblocking is a thing. If they nerfed her damage while still making it a difficult shot to hit, it would reward the people who don't want to play to avoid the damage and hurt the Nids that can aim well. Lots of skills do lots of damage, they do more if the person hitting the skills is fed or the people getting hit aren't doing anything to avoid the damage. All of the hard-hitting abilities can either be dodged or mitigated somehow. Nid isn't as OP as people make her out to be - people act like she's got a 90% win rate or some ish. If you play against her correctly and know how to dodge she isn't a problem. Stop complaining and learn to counter champs you don't like instead of demanding a nerf. Or at least allow for compensation buffs. Her power doesn't need to be moved elsewhere, it's already where it needs to be - her spear, her passive, and her cougar form. Her poke and her heal are the only real things her human form is useful for. If you want to nerf her poke damage, you need to widen the missile width - because "moving the power" to her heal or traps or cougar isn't gonna help her human form, just take away a core part of her character.

AbyssphereMay 18, 20152 votes

Her spear is among the slowest and narrowest skillshots in the game. How slow does it need to go for you to think it's an acceptable speed? Do minions need to outspeed it? And just how narrow does it have to get when I think it's already the single skinniest skillshot in the game?

If it does too much damage then just nerf the damage. Being too wide or travelling too fast? Sorry but no, that's just not true.

Phoenix Kotori May 18, 20152 votes

The range for the spear is too wide and it travels too fast. I'd rather a slow one with small range so that we can end this oppressiveness.

The spear is slow compared a lot of other skill shots, and it's width was already changed to be reasonable with the rework.

LorinneMay 18, 20151 votes

I agree. Her spear is by no stretch of the imagination "too wide" nowadays. People just have trouble juking and then chalk it up to the enemy being OP, not to them being bad at dodging...

Scarlet FireflyMay 18, 20152 votes

Leave Nidalee alone for God's sake. She has a 45% normal winrate (48% in ranked). If she is continuously spearing you to the face, that is your problem. Her spear is one the slowest projectiles in game, not to mention it's tiny width.

NemeBroMay 18, 20151 votes

Man I swear, I must have only played bad Nidalees. A friend I play with also swears that she's awful to lane against or face, but I have never had a huge problem with her. I think I've lost lane once against Nidalee, and it was as Riven and I made a pretty stupid mistake (went to help my jungler against the enemy jungler despite obviously being doomed, and got chunked for my health from afar and killed before I could make it back to my turret).

Must be because I play tanks so often, I guess.

CreationFlawMay 18, 20151 votes

I think it's more that no matter where she is, she's not in a weak spot, theoretically. (unless she's against fed ad assassins or gangbanged by 5 people) She has up close damage whether she procs the mark or not, low cooldowns, and if she can't win in close she proceeds to throw glitchy 1500 range 1k damage spears every six seconds that cost, what, 50-90 mana? She has like.. 315% of her AP in a combo, plus base damages and everything else.

She has pretty powerful things that aren't needed, like this "Killing a unit will reduce Pounce's current cooldown to 1.5 second if it's currently higher.

Big Bang BobMay 19, 20151 votes

The pounce reset kinda is needed. Without out it, Nid would lack the slipperiness many assassins need to not have to kamikaze themselves to get a kill in a team fight. Talon Fizz Leblanc Akali

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Bang Bob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUfX53tP,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-05-19T02:39:11.425+0000)

The pounce reset kinda is needed. Without out it, Nid would lack the slipperiness many assassins need to not have to kamikaze themselves to get a kill in a team fight.

Talon doesn't really have mobility outside of his ultimate, and his E is used often in the assassination, so he's completely screwed once he kills the target. Same with Fizz in a way, except he's completely untargetable and has lower mobility cooldowns.

Big Bang BobMay 19, 20151 votes

Talon I meant his ult :P

Biff ManlyMay 18, 20151 votes

Elise Nidalee

So similar, but one is below-average in almost every field while the other's only weak point is Assists, because she can kill everyone herself.

MLDzXnRRRMay 18, 20151 votes

They reworked Nida, because of her toxic spears, now they have the old dmg and AOE with Ludens. RITO, pls (and her earlygame and cougar form are better)

Davy CrockettMay 18, 20151 votes

Why can Veigar destroy Nidalee with one button? Beats me.

DrNovaMay 18, 20151 votes

Get rid of the heal in my opinion, and she'd be more in line. Or make it higher cost/longer cooldown. I'd be much happier playing against her if she didnt heal so often

ImHerVoiceMay 18, 20151 votes

BECAUSE THE REST OF HER KIT DOES ZERO DAMAGE? DO YOU EVEN READ BASE STATs?

Being able to hit a max range nid spear feels good. AS someone who's played nid since her release this feeling has never gone away.l It was hurt a bit when they nerfed max spear range because casuals couldn't dodge then. And still can't dodge now. If anything all the rework did was make her even more Q dependent and even less likely to be played straight AD bruiser.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

BECAUSE THE REST OF HER KIT DOES ZERO DAMAGE? DO YOU EVEN READ BASE STATs?

Being able to hit a max range nid spear feels good. AS someone who's played nid since her release this feeling has never gone away.l It was hurt a bit when they nerfed max spear range because casuals couldn't dodge then. And still can't dodge now. If anything all the rework did was make her even more Q dependent and even less likely to be played straight AD bruiser.

"BECAUSE THE REST OF HER KIT DOES ZERO DAMAGE? DO YOU EVEN READ BASE STATs" Q = 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+40% AP) Q max range = 150 / 225 / 300 / 375 / 450 (+120% AP) Cougar Q = 4 / 20 / 50 / 90 (+75% AD) (+36% AP) execute cougar Q = 10 / 50 / 125 / 225 (+187.5% AD) (+90% AP) proc with hunt for fuckstupid damage.

W = 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+20% AP) On a trap, that procs her passive, gives vision, and applies rylai's, Ludens etc. W Cougar = 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 (+ 30% AP) and it has a reset to 1.5

E = 45 / 85 / 125 / 165 / 205 (+ 50% AP) Attack Speed: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60% Like for real? Why the fuck does she need the attack speed that she can buff allies with? I'd be fine if it was like 10/15/20/25/30%, but iunno, the 60% is literally devastating and makes support nidalee super powerful in addition to top, mid, and jungle.

Cougar E = 70 / 130 / 190 / 250 (+ 45% AP) and it has a wide radius.

Oh yeah, her passive additionally allows her to move much faster towards enemies, and faster in general, if she's in a bush.\

So you're wrong, she has damage everywhere in her kit.