https://mobile.twitter.com/RiotRepertoir/status/1103515153293668352
Basically Wits End and Madred become components and build into Zephyr; now on hit items with strong tankiness values for AS fighters.
This is a dream come true. I'm so happy Riot isn't neglecting fighters who don't have ridiculous AD ratios and want to bulk up instead.
Please put this in the game.
AIQ7 votes
intensifies
Daddy Ants3 votes50 magic damage on hit plus stacking armor and MR on Zephyr?
HELLO RAGEBLADE USERS.
Iota Theta2 votes50 magic damage on hit plus stacking armor and MR on Zephyr?
HELLO RAGEBLADE USERS.
This weapon sounds gre...oh...oh no...
Ragnaveil3 votesThis would likely lead to phantom hit being removed. Lets be honest, if they are considering this, they are considering removing phantom hit and its unhealthy mechanic.
OtterlyLost2 votesExciting... more melee friendly only items. As if Bruisers don't already have the biggest pool of items in the game by a huge, insane margin. Hard pass.
BEK Makadur2 votes"Bruisers" So you mean Juggernauts, Divers, Fighters?
Moody P4 votesWhat do you mean? This item seems strong for on hit marksmen to make Kogmaw and maybe Varus tankier
feintfiend2 votesThis would be insanely broken on 
Also 
would be waaay too tanky with this and remove his only "counterplay"
Daddy Ants2 votes 
ZackTheWaffleMan2 voteseven if it's changed to on-attack, will still be able to abuse it
Rebonack2 votesOh holy shit.
Finally.
I've been asking for a new OnHit armor item for AGES ever since Madred's was removed. Making 'em combine into an end-game item is just gravy.
The only thing that could make this better would be two alternative end-game items that combine Wits/Madred's with Recurve Bow for some extra variety. Give the Wit's build the MR shred and the Madred's build Cold Steel via attack speed stealing.
Ragnaveil2 votesI feel like people are also missing something about this: The shred is removed, meaning they are gaining the stats from stacking, but not removing it off of you. And its 18 stacks, meaning ranged users would have to take a while to stack it just get half the stats a melee would get from it. A item line like this is much welcomed, and if abusers arise, simply hit their kits since its the likely reason why they are able to abuse it (leaving the rageblade shenanigans out of this because phantom hit could possibly get removed, and should be. Breaks one too many on hit auto heavy users. Should mainly function as a hybrid item, simple as that.)
EDIT: To clarify with the pictures even having the text itself, Wits/Madreds stacks 3 magic resist/armor per stack for 5 seconds, up to a max of 18 stacks. Zephyr stacks 3 of both stats per stack for 5 seconds, up to a cap of 30 stacks. Also, melee's get twice the stats from the stacked buff (component and completed item) at the cost of not stacking it faster compared to ranged.
EVEN MORE EDITS: So the wording even caught me and im leaving my initial edit in. 18 of armor or magic resist (6 stack cap) for the components, 30 of both for Zephyr (10 stack cap). These bonuses are then doubled for melee, meaning 36 for the components, and 60 for Zephyr.
Iota Theta3 votesI feel like people are also missing something about this: The shred is removed, meaning they are gaining the stats from stacking, but not removing it off of you. And its 18 stacks, meaning ranged users would have to take a while to stack it just get half the stats a melee would get from it. A item line like this is much welcomed, and if abusers arise, simply hit their kits since its the likely reason why they are able to abuse it (leaving the rageblade shenanigans out of this because phantom hit could possibly get removed, and should be. Breaks one too many on hit auto heavy users. Should mainly function as a hybrid item, simple as that.)
I interpreted that as 18 (30 for Zephyr) Armor and/or MR, as opposed to 18 stacks, so a 6-10 stack (3-5 for melee)?
Ragnaveil1 votesI threw up an edit for clarification if you want to read it. EDIT: You were right.
Iota Theta1 votesI threw up an edit for clarification if you want to read it.
I see that now. The wording is still making me think it’s max 18 armor/mr then 30 for zephyr, and not being the number of stacks. Part of that comes from the values, because if they do represent stack cap of 18 and 30, that would mean Wit’s End and Madred’s Bloodrazor would give 48 MR and armor, respectively, at cap, and Zephyr would give 90 of each. Doesn’t that seem a little on the extreme side? Then for melee they stack twice as fast.
Edit: mixed up a number.
Ragnaveil1 votesI mixed up the entire wording then corrected it. You were right.
Iota Theta1 votesI mixed up the entire wording then corrected it. You were right.
Easy mistake. I had to do multiple takes on the passives as well for the same reason. I can understand the mix-up.
Ragnaveil1 votesEh, at least everyone here is reasonable to talk with, compared to people who say Sylas is op when its general knowledge his kit has a lot of power on paper due to the lack of ap bruiser itemization, which is caused by the current ap item mess that would allow mages to abuse the shit out of ap bruiser items unless they had a melee only limitation. Even then, Deathcap as it is just adds more fuel to the fire.
Iota Theta1 votesEh, at least everyone here is reasonable to talk with, compared to people who say Sylas is op when its general knowledge his kit has a lot of power on paper due to the lack of ap bruiser itemization, which is caused by the current ap item mess that would allow mages to abuse the shit out of ap bruiser items unless they had a melee only limitation. Even then, Deathcap as it is just adds more fuel to the fire.
This is true. I try to maintain civility as best as I can, since that’s the best way discussion happens.
Hopefully they’ll get something for AP fighter itemization soonish..
Ragnaveil1 votes1000 AP shouldn't really need to exist, neither should anything above 750 AP. Deathcap's passive is a huge issue when dealing with AP fighter items.
Iota Theta1 votes1000 AP shouldn't really need to exist, neither should anything above 750 AP. Deathcap's passive is a huge issue when dealing with AP fighter items.
1000 AP always makes me think of AP Malphite...and I shudder everytime. Think Veigar is the only time I’m a bit more ok with it.
I can understand AP needing higher stats on items, mainly since that’s almost the only source and it enhances only spells, not AAs like AD. But man, after a certain point AP values are just too much. Deathcap itself, unfortunately that’s a drawback of keystone items. And not sure what to do with it beyond either nerfing scaling, nerfing base, or removal, but that’d feel like removing Warmog’s, Stoneplate, or IE.
Unfortunately, melee only is likely the only route. Items like Rylai’s and Liandry’s would essentially need the Cleaver treatment otherwise, higher health/lower damage to discourage some other mages from using it. But at that point champs like Sylas are better off with mage items. AP just needs a full overhaul at that point, similar to the AD fighter item passes and recent crit changes combined (rework items and add new ones).
Hm, random but curious how AP fighter items would work on Kassadin...
Ragnaveil1 votesThey would probably target his ratios and base damages to force him to build damage. And Stoneplate should honestly get reworked. Cho's mainly the only person I'd see who would build it (and sometimes Sej or Zac).
Iota Theta2 votesThey would probably target his ratios and base damages to force him to build damage.
Good point.
And Stoneplate should honestly get reworked. Cho's mainly the only person I'd see who would build it (and sometimes Sej or Zac).
I wouldn’t mind. I enjoy building it on Ornn when it comes to bigger fights (especially now without the shield), but it could be designed better. It had this weird thing where early on it was used by non-tanks better than tanks to survive after their initial combos.
Iota Theta1 votesDang that’s pretty. “On hit”, so auto based, right? Or is that generic “hit” since it doesn’t have the hyphen? Genuinely confused there.
How long before Jax breaks it?
Moody P8 votesYeah, autos only.
Im worried Irelia and Jax and maybe Yi might be too strong with it but WW and Voli have been waiting for a good tanky on hit item for a while.
Iota Theta2 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARZlUUjO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T13:54:09.582+0000)
Yeah, autos only.
Im worried Irelia and Jax and maybe Yi might be too strong with it but WW and Voli have been waiting for a good tanky on hit item for a while.
Yeah, those three make me bervous, especially since Irelia already likes Wit’s End.
Definitely will be useful on WW and Voli. Hopefully it can goes through cause I enjoy a good WW match. Depending on how often he autos, could work on Mundo as well. And you might dislike me for this, sounds fun on Shen since he already has decent AS.
It is nice to see them focusing on items more specifically for you guys (I enjoy a good fighter match every now and then)...outside what they did to Spear of Shojin.
Player471 votesIrelia doesnt take wits end lul. Its kinda bad of an item rn for her.
Iota Theta3 votesIrelia doesnt take wits end lul.
Umm, I’ve seen Irelia’s rush Wit’s End, it’s passive and attack speed working well with her. Mostly when against magic damage for the MR as well, but she does build it situationally.
Z3Sleeper2 votesI’ve seen it situationally built a total of 0 times on her.
Iota Theta1 votesI’ve seen it situationally built a total of 0 times on her.
Situationally, so not all that often: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/
But it is there. She can use it. And often times be a rush for her in mid mage matchups in pros. Just cause it’s not often, doesn’t mean she doesn’t, nor does it mean she would pass up the reworked Zephyr.
Z3Sleeper1 votes2.45% build rate, 48% winrate.
"strong on her situationally"
Iota Theta3 votes2.45% build rate, 48% winrate.
"strong on her situationally"
Maybe check all her data with the item.
2nd item listed as 53.1 with 1.1% build rate, under popular items as 4.7% build and 51.5% win.
Perhaps I mispoke when I said rush in pros. I remember them rushing negatron cloak for mage matchups, and then built it into Wit’s End.
Edit: I also never said “strong”. I said she likes it, and she builds it situationally.
Ragnaveil3 votesYou are not wrong on that being situational. It was a strong item for Irelia when she was dominating midlane prior to her mini rework.
Illabethe1 votesIt wouldn't be autos only. It would be any skill deemed an "attack" that carries on hit status as well. Like Ez's Q, etc. Ofc most generally are auto attacks, there are over 130 exceptions.
It would break Udyr, not Jax/Yi, because Udyr can Max Phoenix and in one item have an entire kit of ability, and his 72% Tenacity that broke him in season 4.
Jax would still have to farm up his Shojin's etc, and the result would be he would either throttle down the speed of getting it by buying Zephyr early, or he would get Zephyr too late to matter.
Yi would be giving up his E scaling to get it, and probably would have to give up Dead man's Plate to get it, giving up some of his engage move speed. It would basically convert him into the old Yi..... who was a skirmisher who generally fought medium length battles, rather than a clean up crew who 1 second kills everyone through burst. So..... people would still defer to the burst build over this.
The Skáld1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ARZlUUjO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T13:54:09.582+0000)
Yeah, autos only.
Im worried Irelia and Jax and maybe Yi might be too strong with it but WW and Voli have been waiting for a good tanky on hit item for a while.
Might be? They will definitely be, as if Shojin ain't enough
Séance1 votesKog maw is back !!!
Lord Malpercio2 votesAs long as the meta remains as bursty as it is, no he isn't.
The Trent1 votesI think if they took off the damage part of it and made it PURELY armor stacking it wouldn't break jax or Yi.
Ragnaveil1 votesIssue is...they wont lose damage even if the damage part was lost. Jax still does a fuckton of mixed damage, and Yi is yi: True damage and a ton of alpha strike.
The Trent2 votesIssue is...they wont lose damage even if the damage part was lost. Jax still does a fuckton of mixed damage, and Yi is yi: True damage and a ton of alpha strike.
Yeah but Jax's R scales with AP to do damage and Master yi's true damage scales with AD. Therefore they'll lose damage building this compared to other items but gain defensive stats. If they wanted to go pure damage they should build a different atk speed item with damage stats. Not to mention both champions already hit the atk speed cap with only 2 atk speed items, so like the atk speed won't do much for them late. It'll be a pure defensive item that scales with how much you attack. You see what I'm saying? So overall it'll just be an item that gives them stats to live longer, but do slightly less damage.
Ragnaveil1 votesJax doesn't need AP to do a lot of magic damage, his W at rank 5 and R at rank 2 have pretty strong base damages. Yi isn't about building a whole ton of AD, its about getting resets and ripping people apart with E (which gives him bonus ad based on his ad). This could birth Tank Yi 2.0 unless riot nerfs Yi's kit (i'd get rid of the bonus AD passive so you force him to build AD if he wants to do more, or make his passive like Kayle's where Rageblade doesn't double the stacking.)
The Trent1 votesJax doesn't need AP to do a lot of magic damage, his W at rank 5 and R at rank 2 have pretty strong base damages. Yi isn't about building a whole ton of AD, its about getting resets and ripping people apart with E (which gives him bonus ad based on his ad). This could birth Tank Yi 2.0 unless riot nerfs Yi's kit (i'd get rid of the bonus AD passive so you force him to build AD if he wants to do more, or make his passive like Kayle's where Rageblade doesn't double the stacking.)
Yeah but I feel like you're missing the point... Both champions would only get tank stats and lose damage stats. Tank Yi was a thing because of titanic hydra and berserker. Those are pure health and damage items. This is an item that gives attack speed and resistances. Not really the same and I think it's worth giving it a try.
Glaricion1 votesZephyr rework looks fantastic, hopefully this item rework eventually leads to some AP bruiser items stemming from new Madred's and Wit's.
Shyv is either a weird tanky bruiser or a cheesey mage. Skarner is some weird tank that builds similar to how one would in Dota. Diana's an unhealthy assassin whose kit makes little sense in the role (.2s pop a refreshing shield, 3 hit passive, etc...). Sylas seems like a good mid-game champion, but his WR tanks after the 25 minute mark. Despite vorpal spikes being reworked, would still be fun for Cho to have an ATS AP bruiser middle ground between his insta-gib brush assassin builds and his 'oh god, mobility creep' tank builds. etc...
Illabethe1 votesYou really have no idea how broken this Zephyr idea is.
Udyr win rate will spike to 59% Almost overnight.
Xin Zhao will spike to 56%
Nocturne will spike to 57%
Tenacity stacking is NEVER a good thing in competitive play.
This will bury mages, simply by the virtue that every game will = 72% Tenacity, 70 resist from the same item, and no real offensive downsides on many champs that would use it.
There's also a reason Riot stopped having 10% movement speed items in large numbers.
Zephyr was pre Dead Man's Plate/Righteous Glory/Out of combat Youmuu's.
If Implemented, Fighters will be faster than every other champion in the game in almost every situation, be un CC-able (except knockups), be mage-proof, and have attack speed built in on the same item.
The result will either be massive scaling AP adjustments to mages to bring back AP into items like Rod of Ages, to create more 120+ AP options, possibly a Void staff buff, and individual kit buffs on mages who already are hard to deal with (Some champions won't be rushing this item, like adcs, so all these compensation buffs would result in them dying faster to champs they already often die from, like Ahri)
Saevum1 votesIs this Zephyr the 10% movement speed one? the tenacity one? but now with armor, attack speed and Wit's end passive stacked into it?
Ok, that's scary.
Alzon1 votesThe Tenacity passive does not stack with 
passive, since they have the same name. I do agree the item will be a big buff for Phoenixdyr, but that build is underperforming anyway (at least in my experience, haven’t looked up any stats). Xin, Jax, Yi, and Nocturne all need to itemize almost entirely for damage in their first and second items. Dropping a huge 3,300 gold into an item that grants them only some Attack Speed and a small, flat on-hit effect would set them back quite a bit. Remember, Jax converts AD/AP into armor/MR. Xin, Yi, and Nocturne all have very high scalings in exchange for low base damage. None of them will even glance at Zephyr until after at least two other full items.
Besides Udyr, the only champions who I see doing well with this Zephyr as a first or second buy are Shyvana, Mundo, tank Teemo, Malphite, and maybe Shen and Rammus. Possibly Kog if he’s winning lane but other lanes are losing.
Illabethe1 votesThe reason Noct and Xin would first item it is because it's cheap tankiness and tankiness pairs well with on hit HP recovery, which both have. Xin will be back to prolonged fights instead of 3-4 hit engagements. They do not need the damage as much as the attack speed/tankiness early game. 40 Armor/70 resist is MASSIVE early game.
Saianna1 votesInb4 YI/Kog will abuse the living shit out of the item and everyone will want this gone. Seriously, they shouldn't implement "has it all" items, cause those are game breaking as fuck.
And if Rito really wants to add more of those items, then at least they should add 1 or 2 more AP versions with armor, or some cheap'ish items with anti-assassin perks.
GFREEMEN1 votesMan ADC Neeko would LOVE this