Asking for a Sona buff, but not the one you expect.

only zhule·Oct 29, 2016·1 votes·869 views

So i figured here was as good a place as any to request a small buff to Sona. While there are a lot of things i feel like Sona could do better, what i would like to focus on today is a buff to her maximum mana per level. For one of the more spam happy characters in the game, it seems very odd to me that Sona has the smallest mana pool of all the utility (non-tank) supports in the game. Couple this with the fact that most of her abilities need to be cast 2-5 times to have much impact, and you have a character who is often stuck with little to no mana, until she can build 2-3 mana regen items and 1-2 bonus mana items.

As an aside to those who are going to comment about "just buy runes", keep in mind that Sona is also one of the slowest characters in the game (while also lacking a gap closer), along with being one of the characters with the lowest base health, low base damage on auto, and has only one offensive spell to work with. That's a lot of issues to cover and you only get so many spaces in a rune page.

33 Comments

RebonackOct 30, 20167 votes

Oh shit, has Sona fallen out of the top five champs in the game again?

Better start clamoring for buffs.

Rabble rabble.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

MohawkBirdOct 30, 20163 votes

Sona doesn't need buffs.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Sona x RubickOct 30, 20162 votes

Working as intended an enchenter that has AOE steroids/buffs should be slow and squishy, her E increases her ms mostly outside of the fight.

i would like Meddler to make her more trickful by letting her cancelling her passive autoattack, and making her able to flash during cresendo's animation.

Handy Sandy Oct 29, 20161 votes

With as much utility she has she does not need buffs, health and movement speed don't really matter that much since she has her W and E which is making her a viable mid and top.

only zhuleOct 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

With as much utility she has she does not need buffs, health and movement speed don't really matter that much since she has her W and E which is making her a viable mid and top.

I feel like you didn't actually read the post you just saw that i said i thought she needed buffs and just replied to the title.

Unlucky47Oct 29, 20161 votes

I dont know what you mean by her having to cycle through her rotation to have an impact. Q powercord does 1/3 to half of an adcs health which is insane. To allow her to do that more during the laning phase would make her more of a bully than she already is

only zhuleOct 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I dont know what you mean by her having to cycle through her rotation to have an impact. Q powercord does 1/3 to half of an adcs health which is insane. To allow her to do that more during the laning phase would make her more of a bully than she already is

I would like if you could expand on your comment. At what point is she doing 1/3 of an ADC's health? What are the item builds looking like? What levels are the champions?

1/3 health sounds like a lot, but it's very unclear why she is doing that level of damage. Is she being run with item 3100 and like 400+ AP? If so, why shouldn't she be chunking an enemy for that much damage?

Regardless, the post wasn't about her damage; it was about Sona's low base mana pool, and low scaling of max mana, and the fact the you often need to be 2-3 items deep (not counting boots) before you have enough base mana and mana regen that a skirmish doesn't wipe out 50% or more of your mana pool.

Unlucky47Oct 30, 20161 votes

Have you played sona? Her q powercord at level 3 does that much damage with thunderlords or maybe even without it. And yes, this post isnt about her damage. You talk about increasing her mana pool which will ultimately have the consequence of her being able to do more damage in lane because she can use her q more

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Have you played sona? Her q powercord at level 3 does that much damage with thunderlords or maybe even without it. And yes, this post isnt about her damage. You talk about increasing her mana pool which will ultimately have the consequence of her being able to do more damage in lane because she can use her q more

So little math here. Assuming you get off a full rotation of AA, Q, Empowered AA +powercord+ thunderlord, you do a total of 363 damage +100% AP.(This assumes that no one has any armor or magic resist.) This again sounds impressive, but let's break that down:

118 of that is physical damage from landing 2 auto attacks. So lets remove that because the complaint always is how much damage her Q+ power cord does.

100 damage and 50% AP is done via the magic bolt from casting Q.

40 damage and 20% AP is done via the empowered auto attack.

55 damage and 20% AP is done via the powercord

finally 50 damage plus 10% AP is done via thunderlord.

So after factoring in the 30 MR that EVERYONE has. Sona at level 5 with no bonus AP/ magic pen, VS an ADC with no resists items, Sona does 188.5 magic damage with a full rotation. If you must ask she will also do 93 (roughly depends on champion) damage physical damage, but we didn't count that because it's auto attacks and a lot of supports damage looks much better if you account for them landing auto attacks when ever they hit you with an ability.

So not going to lie, not super impressed by sub 200 from a full rotation at level 5. It's about in line with other damage heavy support characters Annie and Lux being good examples. However their rotation will also stun/root the target.

Unlucky47Oct 31, 20161 votes

The first point I want to address is that while lux and annie are played as supports, these are obviously not support champions. They're just a lazy excuse to have a second mid laner. Secondly, you're either missing something or didnt do the math correctly. With full scaling ap runes and spellthief's edge, which at level 1 is around 18 ap, Her q powercord combo did almost 150 on an ashe bot. considering ashe has around 600 health, this is close to two thirds. But notice that I was using SCALING AP runes. Someone running flat ap runes that has around 45 ap at level 1 is going to do almost half their damage I would assume. And you can't right off 118 damage from her autos "because it's physical". That's part of her powercord. So if you think chunking adcs for upwards of 200 damage during laning phase when they only have 600 health is okay to do then yes you could increase her mana pool

Unlucky47Oct 31, 20161 votes

Sorry just read the "with no bonus ap" which is also a bull argument because no one goes into a game with just 0 bonus ap. If we were talking about just base damage then we wouldnt be talking about league

only zhuleOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The first point I want to address is that while lux and annie are played as supports, these are obviously not support champions. They're just a lazy excuse to have a second mid laner. Secondly, you're either missing something or didnt do the math correctly. With full scaling ap runes and spellthief's edge, which at level 1 is around 18 ap, Her q powercord combo did almost 150 on an ashe bot. considering ashe has around 600 health, this is close to two thirds. But notice that I was using SCALING AP runes. Someone running flat ap runes that has around 45 ap at level 1 is going to do almost half their damage I would assume. And you can't right off 118 damage from her autos "because it's physical". That's part of her powercord. So if you think chunking adcs for upwards of 200 damage during laning phase when they only have 600 health is okay to do then yes you could increase her mana pool

So let me break this down for you really quick. I didn't account for runes and such because everyone is different and it's rather annoying to try and give a graph between the person who goes in with like +5 AP VS the person who went all in with it and started with like 50. I write off the physical damage because if you account for 2 auto attacks, even other supports damage starts looking pretty crazy.

I do not see the issue with Sona being able to do 200+ damage during the lane phase. I mean what else is she going to do during that time? Her heal is pretty weak and costs to much mana to cast the 4-6 times you would need to, to top off an ally. Her movement speed bonus isn't going to be used unless you are running away (or try and close a small gap if flash is down). The bonus damage she gives her allies isn't very high so that's not going to account for much additional pressure. People bitch and moan about how much damage she does, but they never suggest what else she is suppose to do. She has no engage or disengage power before 6, even after getting her ult its a long cooldown and you can still miss with it.

People complain that she does to much damage... But shouldn't a caster be doing a lot of damage with 400+ AP along with item 3100 and/or item 3285 .

Unlucky47Oct 31, 20161 votes

considering she wasnt designed as a caster but as a support I'd say her damage is very generous. And of course you wouldnt see the issue with getting chunked by sona because you play sona. I didnt play alot of adc, but when I played vayne and lucian sonas would just destroy my health bar. And let's look at he "if you account for autos other supports" point. You need to realize that while, yes, other supports can potentially do that. But with sona, it's GUARANTEED. If you look at any of the other supports, they have to actually land something to do damage. But sona just has to walk near people to do that damage because there's no counter play to a q auto. Let's also take into account that adcs do anywhere from 50 to 80 damage at level 1 which is half of what sona can do. A support champion that can harass an adc better than another adc is kind of a problem. And you can really only miss her ult if you're bad

only zhuleOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

considering she wasnt designed as a caster but as a support I'd say her damage is very generous. And of course you wouldnt see the issue with getting chunked by sona because you play sona. I didnt play alot of adc, but when I played vayne and lucian sonas would just destroy my health bar. And let's look at he "if you account for autos other supports" point. You need to realize that while, yes, other supports can potentially do that. But with sona, it's GUARANTEED. If you look at any of the other supports, they have to actually land something to do damage. But sona just has to walk near people to do that damage because there's no counter play to a q auto. Let's also take into account that adcs do anywhere from 50 to 80 damage at level 1 which is half of what sona can do. A support champion that can harass an adc better than another adc is kind of a problem. And you can really only miss her ult if you're bad

yes she does a good chunk of damage. But again what else do you expect her to do during the laning phase? Her heal is not great and costs a lot, her movement speed isn't enough to secure kills most of the time. And she has one offensive spell.

You comment about how she can output more damage at level one then an ADC, but don't mention that it's once per 8 seconds and once per 24 for the power cord. Hell you often can even cycle up a second cord during a fight (during laning phase) because it's ended , most don't last 10+ seconds,or you don't have 200 mana to spare to waste a heal and a movement speed boost just to have a second empowered Q.

Sona is not the traditional support. look at every other support. They have some form of CC before level 6. It might be hard to land, but it's there. Sona has a 40% movement speed for 2 seconds if she used her movement speed boost as her last spell. Many of the other utility supports can /should be played defensively. Sona doesn't really do anything if you play her this way.

I would challenge you to play a few games as Sona. if you think her auto target on Q is too strong, play a game where you don't get to use the follow up auto attack. If you think she does too much damage late game, don't buy Lich Bane or other items that give/use a lot of AP. try playing Sona like a "normal" utility support, no spell thief item line, no thunder lords, just support items for the team.

Or try playing the other utility supports like one would an aggressive Sona. Lots of AP, a Lich Bane, and other items that get better the more AP you have.

Unlucky47Nov 1, 20161 votes

no matter what you build, it's obvious you get lich bane on sona. it works with her kit. But what you dont realize is that her heal isnt meant to just heal. You're supposed to use her heal to negate enemy poke damage. Her movement speed bonus is shit in laning phase because you don't level it, but mid late game it's alot of bonus movement speed. You also have mentioned how sona has the one of the highest base mana regens in the game, so if you just stop playing aggressively for 20 seconds you'll have enough to use your abilities. And for some reason you automatically think that because I'm arguing against sona buffs that I don't/haven't played sona. I have her level 4. And this idea of hard to land cc. WHO? from my experience, most support cc is really easy to land. Morganas stun has a large hit boxes on top of doing shit tons of damage. Alistars is point and click. Tarics is a damn rectangle. janna can slow/tornado. braum just has to hit once on top of his ultimate. Nami's isnt that hard to land in fights along with her tidal wave. there are very few cc spells on supports that are hard to land unless you're bad. Sonas strength comes from protecting her team, and cc isnt apart of that all the time.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 29, 20161 votes

she is a utility support and she has low base MS cuz she has an ability that gives her MS and she already have low cds

i am a sona main and a huge fan and defender of the champ... and i dont think she needs these changes

only zhuleOct 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-29T23:32:53.978+0000)

she is a utility support and she has low base MS cuz she has an ability that gives her MS and she already have low cds

i am a sona main and a huge fan and defender of the champ... and i dont think she needs these changes

Why do you feel that she doesn't need/ deserve to have a mana pool on par or better then the other utility supports?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 29, 20161 votes

because her Q isnt a skill shot... her power cord passive increases her abilities... she gets free cdr with scaling of ULT and her e and w dont have to be targeted to an ally

like nami ... her q is a skill shot. her w has to targeted and her e does to... and her ult is slower and easier to dodge ...

sona can flash ult or just ult and aoe stun an entire team with out them being able to react

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-10-29T23:56:52.139+0000)

because her Q isnt a skill shot... her power cord passive increases her abilities... she gets free cdr with scaling of ULT and her e and w dont have to be targeted to an ally

like nami ... her q is a skill shot. her w has to targeted and her e does to... and her ult is slower and easier to dodge ...

sona can flash ult or just ult and aoe stun an entire team with out them being able to react

I'm now inclined to believe that you have zero understanding of how Sona is played if you are bring up skillshots in regards to her Q. You are aware that if it was a skillshot it would mean 2 things, 1) that it would be MUCH harder to hit and thus Sona would need to be buffed heavily to make up for it. 2) a skillshot means that it can only hit one target meaning that it would have to do more damage. So people who already complain about Sona doing to much damage with AA, Q, powercord AA with a item 3100 would flip their lids at what would likely be an additional 300-500 damage from the rotation.

What is the issue with the ability to teleport and case a AOE stun? There are plenty of other champions that can and often do, do the same thing and no one really bats an eye. Annie , Galio , Kennen , hell Nami can as well. So why is Sona doing it such a big issue?

I wish you wouldn't bring up Nami, of course her Q is a skillshot it's a fucking stun it's been a long time since we had a point and click stun in the game. Sure her ultimate is a bit slower, it also travels about 3 times as far and has a knock up as well as a slow after the knock up. Both can be dodged Sona's if you were expecting the flash and Nami's if you are a bit further away from it. However Nami's also allows for some zoning since it travels much further and is a bit wider.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

the fact that her Q isnt a skill shot or has to be targeted it is just spammed and does damage is why she dont need a bigger mana pool cuz then she could spam it more with out any downside to running out of mana... having a skill shot needs a bit more mana pool due to the fact that if you miss it you are punished for it... so having more mana to have more 'chances to land' skill shot is the trade off...

she has lower cds and get free cdr from ult passive giving her larger mana makes her free to spam more abilities with no down side...

so she dont need the bigger mana pool it is a way to keep her from spamming abilities in check

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T00:30:06.054+0000)

the fact that her Q isnt a skill shot or has to be targeted it is just spammed and does damage is why she dont need a bigger mana pool cuz then she could spam it more with out any downside to running out of mana... having a skill shot needs a bit more mana pool due to the fact that if you miss it you are punished for it... so having more mana to have more 'chances to land' skill shot is the trade off...

she has lower cds and get free cdr from ult passive giving her larger mana makes her free to spam more abilities with no down side...

so she dont need the bigger mana pool it is a way to keep her from spamming abilities in check

It's not her Q that eats up mana it's her W. Also usually by the point you hit spam happy Sona (full CDR and 1-2 ranks in ult) you usually have the items to compensate.

I will never understand why people have so much issue with her Q. Sure it auto targets, but it's really not very impressive damage. To the point where if you are only using the bolts, you aren't pressuring anyone in lane. Much less how unreliable they are for trying to last hit minions.

Getting back to the point though, the other utility supports are not skill shot heavy champions. Or at least do not seem as prone cast abilities as often. So if you have a champion who casts spells less often, why do they need a better scaling mana pool then a champion who casts more spells.

This not me implying that Sona needs to start with 300 more mana and scale to a natural 2K mana pool. Just that it would be nice if champions like Soraka and Janna didn't end up with a mana pools 200-300 points higher.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

sona mana pool lvl 1 341 sona Q level 1 45 mana 8sec cd

soraka mana pool lvl 1 351 raka w level 1 50 mana + 10% hp 5 sec cd

janna mana pool lvl 1 410 janna Q lvl 1 90 mana 14sec cd

come again ?

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T01:53:09.817+0000)

sona mana pool lvl 1 341 sona Q level 1 45 mana 8sec cd

soraka mana pool lvl 1 351 raka w level 1 50 mana + 10% hp 5 sec cd

janna mana pool lvl 1 410 janna Q lvl 1 90 mana 14sec cd

come again ?

Sona's Mana pool lvl 18 1106

Soraka's mana pool lvl 18 1371

Janna's mana pool lvl 18 1498

Bard's mana pool lvl 18 1200 (a champion with a passive that lets him get 12% max mana back every time he picks up a chime)

The suggestion is to give Sona something like 10 more mana per level. This equals out to being able to cast 1 maybe 2 more spells by level 9 depending on how much mana regen you are running.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

her abilities cost less mana

her q is a 45 mana cost while janna's q is 90 double the coust and a higher cool down

or you just gonna ignore that?

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T18:49:02.748+0000)

her abilities cost less mana

her q is a 45 mana cost while janna's q is 90 double the coust and a higher cool down

or you just gonna ignore that?

higher mana cost, longer cooldown,

longer max range, built in CC if it lands, ability to hit more then 2 targets.

Or are you going to ignore that?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

janna has longer cds dont do damage has no damage abilities she can cc more then one target and she can cc /knockback an entire team with her ult while healing hers

janna dont get built in cdr in her ult for her other abilities

and how does sona have higher mana cost? and longer cool downs?

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T19:42:13.846+0000)

janna has longer cds dont do damage has no damage abilities she can cc more then one target and she can cc /knockback an entire team with her ult while healing hers

janna dont get built in cdr in her ult for her other abilities

and how does sona have higher mana cost? and longer cool downs?

No damage abilities on Janna? So Howling Gale and Zephyr don't do damage?

Janna doesn't need built in CDR because her abilities aren't designed around being cast repeatedly over a short period of time. Imagine for a moment Janna being able to have 2-3 Howling gales up at the same time. Or being able to slow multiple targets by 60-80% while still having her movement boost active 80% of the time.

My previous comment was that Janna has higher casting costs and longer cooldowns, but also has additional abilities on her offensive skills, thus making sense why they aren't on a shorter cooldown or have low mana costs.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

its intent is cc not damage...

they dont do anywhere the amont of damage of damage sona's q does

only zhuleOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AP2kBdM0,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T20:08:06.347+0000)

its intent is cc not damage...

they dont do anywhere the amont of damage of damage sona's q does

Howling gale at max charge does 265 damage with 65% AP scaling; Zephyr does 280 with 50% scaling.

Sona does 220 with 70% scaling on her one offensive skill assuming you also land the AA.

A no charge Gale does 160 damage with 35% scaling, Sona's Q bolt does 160 damage with 50% scaling.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

but we are not including the empowered Q of sona

Swiftstrike4Oct 30, 20161 votes

I don't think her pool needs to be changed. I would like her base/scaling health to not be terrible is all.