Lee Sin is back in every one of my games.

1. LOOL you think I got that shit out of my ass? It was YOU who said "I've played him before, but don't like him." I was pointing out how you probably had no idea how to play him considering you only played one or two matches with him in normals. You were attacked on what you said.

2. I said Kha has a better early game clear time. A clear isn't always based on the speed. Early game I look at it who has more health after they finish their clear. Lee Sin and Kha are very close early game in terms of speed in clearing, but the sad thing is that Kha is known for his bad time in the new jungle. This is where my point 1 comes in. You clearly don't play him and haven't played him much. You think that Lee Sin's clear is amazing but in reality it's not even better than Kha's.

3. ..

4. Why would someone build trailblazer on Lee Sin? The chilling smite is much better for ganking and the red smite is much better for dueling. Rarely do people build trailblazer on him. Even on Kha Zix you see people building chilling smite or red smite. Yes there are people who build trailblazer, but most don't.

"Trailblazer's smite + E, your camp is cleared as Lee Sin" Do you think that junglers are going to use smite for every single camp? This method would only work for raptors. As a jungler you should have your smite up every time dragon is about to spawn, or you're planning on doing it. You can't just go around smiting every camp. I don't think you jungle much based on these points.

5. Lee Sin is not a GREAT jungler either right now. Maybe when the Meta favored him he was. But now the meta is against him and if you combine that with his high skill cap you get an extremely low win rate..

And your account has 400+ games played of normals and ranked on it. That's clearly enough to tell me how you play. And I doubt you would play that many games on an account that ISN'T your main.

6. You do realize that there are many people out there who are good with these champions right? There are people who have high win rates with olaf, gangplank, etc. and can make the champion good. Just because a there are people who can make the champion work doesn't mean that champion is good. If we were to use your logic, then Olaf and Gangplank would be considered great champions because in the hands of GOOD people they are GOOD champions. You just went behind your own logic.

7. Lee Sin won't ALWAYS have a ward. There can be many instances where he doesn't. Maybe he used most of his sightstone wards to ward up the enemy jungle? Maybe he didn't finish his sightstone?

Lee Sin requires you to invest in a sightstone to fully utilize his W, which also makes him a bit weaker to other junglers.

8. Vi is a perfect example of a jungler that is more useful than Lee. She's really strong early game, has a dash that doesn't require a ward or an ally to be near you, and has a point and click CC ult. Why would anyone play Lee over Vi? The only reason would be if they are confident that they can utilize their kick very well, which most people cannot do.

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AHl4tj1h,comment-id=00000001000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-04T06:58:49.771+0000) A lie is a when an individual makes a statement knowing that it is untrue. I made an error of 20%. Of course, when you consider that Pantheon's base damage is roughly 900+ lower, one can understand where the issue occurred.

Thank you for dropping the "logical fallacy" shit. Don't claim someone is using one if you can't name it.

A lie can also be defined as "b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker".

I can not claim to know what your intent was, but I can claim to know the statement you made is false.

We do not consider Pantheon's ult because it is based on the proximity of the target to the epicenter. Which NEVER happens due tot he behavior of the ability. Being realistic and honest about their damage is important. Unless Pantheon lands with the very center, he still deals less damage than Lee Sin because he never builds AP.

Even assuming Pantheon's ult did the very bare minimum damage with his ult (500, compared to 1,000), his full combo would have base damage of 1,193.

Lee Sin's full combo has a base damage of 1,140.

As we've discussed, Pantheon's full combo also has better AD scalings.

So like, if Pantheon's ult hits at all and he gets his full combo off, he is in fact doing more damage than Lee Sin, the Blind Monk.

I don't know why you went on that tirade though. I already said that Pantheon's ult is unreliable, but mostly in the sense that it doesn't hit enemies as easily as Lee Sin's though. It does give him better map presence though, and that's just good for him.

Lee Sin's damage and combo is far more effective because it cannot be interrupted. Once hit yby his Q, it will continue unless he is killed/stunned past the duration.

Lissandra presses W, Lee Sin's combo is now interrupted.

Alistar presses W, Lee Sin's combo is now interrupted.

Vayne presses E, Lee Sin's combo is now interrupted.

Lee Sin's combo can certainly be interrupted. His second Q doesn't make him immune to CC.

Is it interrupted as easily as Pantheon's E? Probably not, but I never denied that Lee scaled better than Pantheon. Just about everyone does.

His CC is more effective, and can displace a target away from a turret.

Displace away from a turret yes. It's a shame his only hard CC is on his ult. Pantheon gets a point and click stun on his W. Do you really not see the advantage in that?

In terms of ganking potential he is more lethal and makes stronger team fighting compared to Pantheon who saw lss play and less success in comparison.

Stronger in team fights? Probably.

More lethal ganking? How is that? Pre six, can Q, W, E, then Q again for an execute. None of this can be dodged, it's more damage than Lee Sin's gank, and is unavoidable if Pantheon gets in range to do it. Hard CC is pretty great for pre-six ganking. Lee Sin's only advantage above Pantheon when ganking pre level six is his kit allows for more playmaking (mostly in the form of where he can gank from). Post six Lee gets some great CC for ganks that can secure kills, but Pantheon suddenly has far more global ganking presence with his ult.

Less play and success? When Lee was king of the jungle absolutely. Those times are gone. He's not used that often either.

The only advantage is Talon being impossible to body block, but unlike Lee SIn once Talon is in he has NO method of getting out and NO method of making the target stay.

The difference is Talon can actually assassinate his opponent better.

Lee Sin W's in, QERQ slightly slower than Talon and due to the behavior of his Q and R interaction, can use it to more easily return to his team. Talon's only advantage is ignoring body block and that advantage is minimal at best.

Only Lee Sin would need either a ward (which he would either have to place himself, and considering your scenario involves him not even having to use his second Q to get to his target, he would have to be almost on top of the enemy team to accomplish this, or would have to already be there, which is pure luck), or another team mate (the more advantageous option, but one that relies on this other team mate being able to provide counter peel against the enemy team when they lock Lee Sin down) to perform that combo, and it relies on what he W's to being on the opposite side of the enemy ADC relative to his team to work, otherwise he will still be cut off from his team.

Talon just needs to press a few buttons, and will probably do more damage, because I totally forgot that his E (and his passive, to a lesser extent I guess) actually amplifies his damage against the target. Oh, and Talon builds more damage items than Lee Sin. That part is important too. It's why Talon deals more damage.

Oh, and you're insane if you think Lee Sin's best engage tool being body blocked by one of the tanks on the enemy team isn't a huge disadvantage.

The listing of his strength was solely towards the assertion that he was a weak jungler. Why do you ask unncecessary questions?

If you list only strengths, without acknowledging weaknesses, then anyone looks strong.

That is a poor argument "Talon is good because solo Q functions differently from professional play." So what? If we are going to evaluate a champion we should always look at the highest play possble otherwise, you are skewing the analysis.

Oh sorry, I didn't realize the OP, who made this thread because he doesn't want to face Lee Sin, was an LCS player who was talking about quitting jungling in the LCS because Lee Sin is suddenly being used in the LCS again.

Only that is all bullshit. This thread is about Solo Q. If you don't want to acknowledge Solo Q in a thread about it, get out.

Lee Sin doesn't see as much play in professional play because there is now a larger variety of junglers who can tailor to specific needs. Lee Sin was used because he could do almost everything with few drawbacks attached. Now you have champs such as Gragas, Sejuani, Reksai, who may not have the same number of tools, but are stronger in other areas. Lee Sin still sees professional usage. He has not disappeared.

He doesn't see as much professional use because he isn't nearly as good as he used to be.

When has he been seen since Cinderhulk dropped? I've seen a fucking Shaco since then (I think, I might be wrong about when the UOL game with Shaco occurred), but no Lee Sin.

Correct, because the niche for an assassin was already filled. You can build Lee Sin as an assassin, but you don't need to with his tool set. You can go bruiser and have high base damage that makes you dish out respectable damage while still providing team fighting ability without dying in a few seconds. Seriously, Lee Sin is extremely flexible. It is why he was so good.

"Was so good". You're starting to get it.

And sure, you could build Lee Sin as an assassin. But he wasn't as good as the assassins people actually played.

This is why wikia's are not reliable sources of information. Not all knockbacks are coded the same just as Runeglaive is not the same as Lichbane/IBG/TF

Okay, go ahead and provide the source that Alistar's does not provide a brief stun.

You misrepresented the argument regarding the roles a champion is capable of fulfilling in favor of suggesting the role was that of winning. I appeciate the desire to provide the definition of a strawman but I am quite sure of the argument I was making regarding a champions "role", were you?

lol

No, I didn't.

Winning is not a role, it's a goal. I don't give a shit what roles Lee Sin can fill. If he can't reliably win games anymore (or at all, even for those with a lot of experience with him), then he's certainly not a great champion.

Champion design=/= goal of the game. The two are different and clearly, we re evaluating Lee SIn's role as a champion and not the end game goal.

No, that's what you're doing. I never cared about what Lee Sin's role was.

You did, don't lie.

Read better.

Season 5 saw a decrease in popularity for Lee Sin. Cinderhulk was introduced and it dropped even further.

Why do you think that is?

Not good at teamfights? Hrmm, s4 was very heavy about team fighting and he was seen as one of the most picked champions for the jungler role. As a jungler? Far from underwhelming. In terms of necessity? Not as much anymore.

Nope, a champion with mostly single target damage, a reliance on auto attacks, and minimal teamfight CC is indeed not that good at team fights. As bad at them as Tryndamere? No, of course not. But very mediocre.

He's fairly underwhelming these days. With the amount of tanks walking around the rift he can't snowball as effectively, and he isn't nearly as good in team fights as the Amumu on the enemy team.