It's Pretty Clear that Nidalee Is Getting Nerfed Right?
Right... ?
Right... ?
every time she's viable in some way she's broken and bs to deal with.
It's almost as if a kit with ranged poke, heal, attack speed buffs, vision granting traps, execution damage, FREE mobility, ect... is hard to balance on one champion. Almost as if the kit is over loaded.
You forgot how her Cougar form skills are resourceless.
It sure is fun trying to catch a Pouncing Nidalee as she runs through the jungle. It's fun because you'll NEVER catch her.
EDIT: Oh wait you said free mobility, derp.
Yeah its kind of like them trying to balance kassadin where his kit is just broken in general mainly just the mobility burst aspect of it all. And typically if they nerf the burst of the champ they jump in and die. Hard to say what to change since their kits are so all over the place.
She needs the kog'maw treatment.
Her spears should work the same way his ult does.
The mana cost goes up for each consecutive spear you throw within a period of time. Now she cant spam the ability that determines whether or not she wins lane without penalty.
I think it's a pretty good idea right here but also the damage on them is a little ridiculous too, mid game she'll be dealing 1k damage on max range spears. Yeah, only on people with no defensive items, but theres always going to be an adc that won't buy any defensive items because then they will fall behind, and the only defense squishier mid laners have to offer against Nidalee spears are items like Abyssal, and Zhonyas.
So long as we don't go back 2.5K damage on a max range Javelin. Compared to old AP Nid, she feels a lot more fair now. Harder to hit Javelin plus deals a lot less damage than before.
The reason it works for Kog'Maw is because his ult is on like a 1 second cooldown. I doubt this is what you want for Nidalee
Her spears are her entire damage output.
They determine whether or not her all in kills you.
They determine whether or not she wins the lane, or secures the gank.
This needs gating. Sorry, but it is what I want. I want to be able to leave my turret without the fear of the 4th nid spear flying over the jungle wall in a row.
it doesnt matter if you dodge every single spear she throws for 20 straight minutes, it only takes one
I don't understand you. You seem to understand that a huge part of her damage output is gated by whether or not she lands poke on you, and you still want that gated further? Most assassins or burst mages can just run at you and kill you, a lot of junglers can just force a turret dive. Nidalee needs to land poke. If you're just complaining, fine, whatever, but I disagree wholeheartedly if you think there's a fundamental balance issue (not just tuning) with Nidalee.
I don't think you realize how much power her spear has for how low cost it is.
She should be rewarded for landing a spear, and punished for missing.
Right now, she can just blindly spam and wait for one to land, she loses nothing. Usually, you wont be able to do shit about it either. Especially if it is jungle nid.
Not only that, but she has good mobility, and sustain. Her spears need gating.
Add a mana cost to Pounce.
That's reasonable.
Her jungle clear speed is insanely ridiculous so I would assume so.
High Jungle clear speed. Permanent jungle sustain. Can jump walls on a short CD.
IS ACTUALLY A STRONG AP JUNGLER
Riot will gut her to be worse than ever.
High Jungle clear speed. Permanent jungle sustain. Can jump walls on a short CD.
well, she at least has weaknesses. That's more than we can say for the other Sanic the Hedge hogs.
squishy, and no cc. Actually takes a risk when she all ins.
IS ACTUALLY A STRONG AP JUNGLER
Riot will gut her to be worse than ever.
100% true.
squishy, and no cc. Actually takes a risk when she all ins.
Actually takes a risk when she all ins.
risk
I don't think anyone has seen such a day where anything she does had a risk.
Any sort of champ with a "heal yourself" spell is always dumb to lane against which is why most of them are designated to support roles with low damage. They should probably just take the skill out and put in something that relates more to her theme.
Aside from the fact that it costs 120 mana at max rank, more than most ultimates.
Yet many laners go oom way more quickly than nidalee without a self heal. Saying that it costs some resources doesn't negate the problem which is making her self sustain in lane. She has a costless mana form anyways. So even if she went oom she can still farm and even harass in cougar form. Let's not forget that this heal is on a lower cooldown and heals more than summoner heal. Seems balanced? Obviously you can say that for many healing champs but which healing champs can still burst you with a few damage items at the same time?
I myself like nidalee but I really think this heal is the one thing that makes her toxic. It relates nothing to her kit. She is supposed to be a huntress. It makes riot nerf everything else about her so that she can't win trades without using it. When she does heal it makes the opponent feel like trading is completely useless and voided because all the damage they did was just negated. If they just took the heal out completely and made her more risky to go for trades then she would be great. People would still complain but at least they have a chance to fight back and get her out of lane.
Well for a start, thats bollocks, if she goes oom, she can't trade or farm in couger form with out becoming very exposed.
During the laning phase her heal is expensive, and she's not even going to get much from it because she has to max Q first.
And the only way she is going to kill you is by actually landing a spear, which is one of the thinnest hit boxes in the game, and then having to go all in.
If you're a ranged mage against indalee, you can easily hide behind your minions and poke her with impunity because her spear is the only ranged damage she has.
Instead of Nerfs lets work on improving other junglers.
How about we Nerf Lee-Sin too while we are at it.
It's not even about her being a strong jungle either, it's just that its super hard NOT to feed her in lane, and now she's ridiculous because she gets fed off 3 different lanes, + the other poor jungler that has to face Nidalee.
Right, because Riot's going to undo the ONLY change they've made in the last several weeks that improved Jungle Diversity.
They don't have to undo that change, but they could make a couple of smaller changes that make her easier to deal with... like reducing her spears' range scaling, or nerfing her self-heal.
You know, the shit that people have hated about her since literally forever.
I'm not saying that she doesn't need nerfs. I'm just saying Riot is probably terrified of the backlash they'd get if they nerfed the jungle back down to only three viable junglers.
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I'm not saying that she doesn't need nerfs. I'm just saying Riot is probably terrified of the backlash they'd get if they nerfed the jungle back down to only three viable junglers.
But the reason Nidalee wasn't viable before was just that she didn't really have a way to survive the early clear. Now she can snare the big monster at each camp, potentially saving her a huge amount of HP, and she can combo in her catmode damage against the Hunted target.
Her kit innately has a bunch of things that are really nice for junglers: -Wall-hopping (mobility in general, really) -Sustain (dat random heal on her kit) -Gank potential (speed boost and gapcloser toward hunted targets) -Pressure (people need to worry about her spears 24/7)
She also has a few things that aren't essential, but REALLY set her apart from the standard Lee/Jarvan: -No-obligation damage. Passing through midlane? Chuck a spear at the enemy champion. -Vision traps. A clever Nid will be pretty tough to invade. -She's a ranged jungler!!! YES
The fact is that as long as they keep the Hunted monsters buff, Nidalee will be capable of jungling. But now that they've managed to amp up her strength in one area, it would be nice if they could reduce the impact of some of the stuff that pisses people off.
But...
I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying Riot probably sees her as "close enough to balanced" to leave her as is rather than deal with the infinite backlash they'd get over nerfing the only new jungler to appear post warwickgeddon.
They don't have to undo that change, but they could make a couple of smaller changes that make her easier to deal with... like reducing her spears' range scaling, or nerfing her self-heal.
You know, the shit that people have hated about her since literally forever.
They've done both of those with her rework. They also nerfed her base dash cooldown and removed her increased movement speed in cougar form so she doesn't roam around the map as quickly, you know, other stuff people have complained about. Yea she got compensatory buffs along with that, she's had tweaks since then, but she was honestly fine, even as a jungler, before they decided for whatever reason to have the hunt debuff apply to monsters.
Nidalee's rework was in 4.10, which happened last June. 8 months ago. I played both before and after the rework.
The spears are still bullshit. Her heal still exists. I am fine with literally everything else on her kit and I love the extra additions they've done with Hunt combos, but there's no reason anyone should be able to chunk someone to 1/3HP from full with one skillshot (yeah, they reduced her damage... from literally one-shotting ADCs), and there's no reason a goddamn assassin should have a targeted heal.
Were you fine with AD Nidalee top, when she was at her peak?
I'm finding it difficult to talk to you without dismissing your comments as just your preference in playing the game, which, for most people on here, is them just wanting every other champion besides their main to be nerfed to oblivion, so forgive me if I come across as a bit frustrated.
So let me ask, how would you balance Nidalee? Change whatever you want about her kit, make her spears do no damage, remove her heal, whatever you want. And then tell me why you would want to play Nidalee after you made your changes. Tell me what makes your changes to her 'balanced', while still giving players reason to play her, from a gameplay perspective; what does she do that no other champion does, what makes her unique and fun to play?
Take Nidalee's damage out of her human form and put it in her cougar form. Buff Cougar form's damage across the board but reduce the spear damage (remove the distance scaling and nerf base numbers, leave scaling alone). Remove the heal and give Nidalee a different ability in that slot that synergizes with her kit more, or hell, leave it alone (and remove the ASPD buff) but give it a lower mana cost. Make Nidalee's play pattern depend on Cougar instead of just using it very well most of the time but still having insane poke. It's not difficult - with the current Nidalee kit, her kit feels lopsided anyway. She can poke you down and chunk you from full range and then jump in and finish you off. It's not a healthy play pattern. But if you nerf her spear damage you can give the current jungle/assassin Nidalee some nice buffs - nerf the spear damage and you can give her more width on her spear again. When her poke isn't toxic her assassination potential doesn't feel so overwhelming, because there's actually ways to stop Nidalee from killing you (and if she jumps on your head and you use a defensive cooldown or something she's stuck in your team). This is a much healthier kit (in my opinion) than the current Nidalee, who chucks a spear at you for 1/3rd health and then can basically pounce on you with increased range + execute + lichbane. Make her depend on that Cougar form to do her damage and her kit becomes much more balanced, imo.
The problem I see with just loading everything into her Cougar form is that it makes AD Nidalee a monster. Heck, AD Nidalee is basically what you're describing
Were you fine with AD Nidalee top, when she was at her peak?
Honestly? Yeah. It was overtuned, but when Nidalee focuses on AD she inherently ends up with more counterplay. You can plan around the fact that she needs to burst you down as a cat, and you worry about spears more because they give her a window of strength (with Hunt) than because they rip your health bar in half.
I also think she'd have been a lot easier to deal with without her whenever-it's-up heal. In human mode, she's built to wear down the enemy with traps and long-range spears. In cat mode, she's built to dash in, burst, and escape with tons of mobility. Neither of those should include a targeted heal, and in fact the free sustain it grants ends up eliminating a lot of her weaknesses in both forms.
So let me ask, how would you balance Nidalee? Change whatever you want about her kit, make her spears do no damage, remove her heal, whatever you want. And then tell me why you would want to play Nidalee after you made your changes. Tell me what makes your changes to her 'balanced', while still giving players reason to play her, from a gameplay perspective; what does she do that no other champion does, what makes her unique and fun to play?
When her rework went live, her spears had a TINY hitbox. Then they widened it to roughly what it was before. I would put the hitbox back to where it was - smoking a target at close range means you get a reliable Hunt mark, but if you can hit the spear at long range despite the thin hitbox, you deserve the reward. Plus, a thinner hitbox makes it easier to thread the needle between minions for those really clutch shots everyone loves to see. The counterplay for a long-range skillshot should be to dodge it, not to hide behind minions.
I'd also rework her E entirely. Targeted heals have no place on her kit, and the attack speed doesn't fit with her human form playstyle. To replace it, I'd do something like this:
Self-buff only; press E and it instantly applies on Nidalee.
Low mana cost (40ish?) and moderate cooldown (maybe 14/13/12/11/10). Gives Nidalee a whole bunch of spellvamp for 2 seconds, with the heal doubled vs champions or Hunted targets. Cooldown reduced by 1 second each time Nidalee autoattacks.
Allows Nidalee to "call her shots", in a sense. She throws spears willy-nilly, and that's fine; that's a huge part of her identity. But if you pay close attention and activate this just before a spear lands, or just as the enemy walks into a trap, you get a huge reward in terms of sustain. In a pinch it also means she can fire this off, go catmode, and use her full combo on a minion wave to top herself off... but that won't heal as much as a max-range spear to the enemy laner's face.
My biggest gripe with Nidalee is the way she has so much effectiveness without really needing to interact. Her heal means damage doesn't stick to her. Her mobility means she doesn't have to stay to fight you. Her spears cost her practically nothing and the punishment for being hit by one is absurd.
I don't mind that she has all that safety, but she needs to be made to put forth an effort if she wants to recover from a misplay.
When her rework went live, her spears had a TINY hitbox. Then they widened it to roughly what it was before. I would put the hitbox back to where it was - smoking a target at close range means you get a reliable Hunt mark, but if you can hit the spear at long range despite the thin hitbox, you deserve the reward. Plus, a thinner hitbox makes it easier to thread the needle between minions for those really clutch shots everyone loves to see. The counterplay for a long-range skillshot should be to dodge it, not to hide behind minions.
I'm surprised you didn't outright delete it, or touch the damage at all :P. Also the spear is still thinner, it's about 2/3rds of what it was before the rework (it was 60 before, cut to 30 with the rework, then buffed to 40).
I'd also rework her E entirely. Targeted heals have no place on her kit, and the attack speed doesn't fit with her human form playstyle. To replace it, I'd do something like this: -snip-
That's a pretty cool idea, honestly. I have two general concerns though:
Well, she's been in literally every one of the normal games I've played since her jungle buff. Sometimes even twice (one per team). I'd be happy if they nerfed her heal alone. It's completely out of place and seems to have avoided most of the healing nerfs everyone else was hit with.
Soraka, healer goddess, can now heal 240+60% AP, at the cost of 10% her max health and some tiny amount of mana. Sona can heal 165+30% AP for 100 mana, plus a temporary shield of 115+20% AP. Nidalee can heal 205+50% AP for 120 mana, plus 60% AS boost.
How is it that Nid can heal almost as well as Soraka plus some extra utility? Raka has to bleed for her heals and has to land Qs in order to be a reliable HP battery for her team. Granted, the same thing could be said of Kayle's heal (240+45% AP for 100 mana plus a bunch of temporary MS), but the rest of her kit lacks Nid's poke and escape.
I'm not the sort to go "waa rito delete riven/yasuo/akali" but for nid... i just can't imagine anyone was happy to see AP nid back in this game. The AD version was such a nice change.
BETTER NERF VEIGARRRRRRR
OMFG, so people find a new way to play her in LCS = GUTTED!
FFS, she's been nerf gazilion times to the point that she's not picked for laning anymore. Would you guys that whine about nerf all over the place just stfu?
Buff the one's that never been seen or maybe nerf the ones that 100% pick or ban like Lee Sin?
J4 shouldn't get a nerf. He's picked alot for Gnar.
Not picked for lanning? Link has been a beast with her midlane. She's also thought of as a very strong top lanner by most of the pros.
Riigght, ONE fucking player play it well. WHOOP DEE DOO!
Now we can get back to having only 3 junglers in LCS.
SOO MUCCH FUN
Or we can nerf Cancer Cat and fix the damn jungle. Because leaving in one of the most unfair and imbalanced champions in the game just to buff diversity is a terrible idea. It's about time Riot started making smart decisions instead of trying to hit Jarvan and Co. with global nerfs that weakened every jungler.
The damn cat deals no stupid damage if none of her things landed. And to top it off, her spears are so damn easy to dodge, the width got nerf to almost nonexistent! Not to mention she has to goes in and risk dying from stun?
Are people becoming that lazy to play against her?
And you know what? forget it. This game is dying because of stupid balance team and stupid people who just cry for nerf against the champ they hate. And I mean literally ask to remove the champ out of the game and Riot keep spamming new stupid champs.
This season is doomed.
Yes. She's one of the most hated champions in the game for a reason. Because you can dodge as many spears as you want, but if she lands even one none of that matters. And second, you can say they're easy to dodge all you want, but there are two things you can't change.
People land spears in LCS because they are good. If you can't dodge a damn 30width size slow skill shot and cry about it, you seriously just admit that you suck.
Ward! Bait her, pick champs that have wall, get banshee, w.e. Those things are enough.
People can also dodge spears in the LCS. And yet some of them still land. People also ward in the LCS. And yet she's still heavily picked and banned. I would ask if you're even trying to put forth a valid argument at this point, but you've resorted to insults so you're clearly beginning to realize you have nothing good to say. :/ Don't bother replying, I wont even read it at this point.
You won't see any reaons behind any arguments when you hate playing against the champ and want that one deleted since you admit that you play against her.
Wow LCS got a kil. NERF!
And what do you know about playing the actual game? You are unrank AND only play BOT game mostly.
Because of course observation is invalid. Silly me, how could I possibly have been so stupid as to forget the ability to think is completely meaningless? You can put out all of the idiotic and thoughtless arguments you want, but clearly I am the fool because I decided that going through bronze/silver/incredibly-toxic-plat to eventually not reach diamond/LCS play was not worth it.
EDIT:PS: How can I be salty if I don't play this game enough to see Nidalee everywhere?
Yes. She's one of the most hated champions in the game for a reason. Because you can dodge as many spears as you want, but if she lands even one none of that matters. And second, you can say they're easy to dodge all you want, but there are two things you can't change.
- Buffs don't dodge. Nidalee's ability to steal Dragons and buffs with absolutely no risk is broken. And if you try to body block her spears? Her damage is not non-existent.
- She's landing spears in the LCS, and you expect everyone to be able to dodge all of them. Every last spear she throws throughout the entire game. No. Just stop trying.
But it's not true that being hit by one spear makes every missed one irrelevant. A single hit spear isn't a won lane, and generally isn't a kill until the game gets later on (assuming she has done OK up until that point). You can take multiple spears in laning without being forced to go back, and while having the chance to respond with your own harass (which is much easier to hit than a spear).
Nid's spears are scary late but I dislike it when people say "It doesn't matter how many spears you dodge". Every spear Nid misses in lane sets her back further and further and she really cannot afford the mana to be chucking one every time it's off cooldown. "Dodge the spears" is used as one of the big "haha what terrible advice" examples but it really does help against her - dodge a couple of spears and respond in kind with the much easier to land harass that most other mid laners have and you will win lane.
Except that even the easiest to hit skills are much harder to hit Nid with because mana-less Cat Jumps.