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Every recent balance change reduces choice and player expression. Why are you doing this?

k wìx··58 votes·2,149 views

I am absolutely lost on some of these balance changes. High plat support main. Why are you reducing player choice and expression through item builds and rune choice? I feel like I am more pigeonholed than ever into buying a specific set of items or playing a certain way. This is just... completely wrong and the opposite direction I want the game to go in. Are you trying to cater to new players? Are you trying to make the game easier to play? I've never been more opposed to so many of your recent changes. It's fascinating and terrifying to watch the 'dumbing down of league'.

1.) Runes Reforged did some neat things, but it definitely means less choice for players coming into the game. There are so many obvious 'right' picks for champions that it's sad how few options you truly get. If i want to try a new 'build' .. it feels like I'm under performing or getting punished for trying something new. _A lot of this is because the design caters to a specific type of or set of champions. As an example, what mage has interest in the 'precision' tree? Not many. They should have that option. 2nd example: Let's look at overgrowth. It's absolutely broken-good on someone like Mundo. What about a champion like Zilean? it nets him about 150 health after 30 minutes. It's not viable, and it should be. _

Add to this the imbalance between some of the trees and you get a really 'basic' experience. I want more runes. I want the runes to be competitive with each other, I don't want to EVER see one rune to rule them all, which is most of what it is right now. I want the ability to customize my starting stats and abilities more than currently offered, and runes could totally do this, but it just doesn't right now.

2.) The potency that champions bring to the table has never been more out of wack, and I understand this to a point because of Runes, but... enough is enough. Certain champions are now awful, and other ones are completely busted. Please react accordingly and make some changes. I'm tired of wasting my bans on Ezreal and Vayne. You also really, really need to look into buffing champions who just arent competitive. Furthermore... Dinger wasn't on ANYONES radar, yea, he's annoying - but there are SO many worse offenders right now, and so many champions who need attention more. Why are you even bothering with him?

3.) The support item changes are pretty baffling. I want a MORE COMPLEX AND REWARDING VISION SYSTEM. I do not want my first support item to just promise the basic wards and that's that. This is a step backward and frankly stupifies the game in many ways. Nevermind all the balance issues your going to have to fix along with it, like removing all the old support actives. Those items allowed players tremendous freedom to have player and skill expression... They just gone now? Why? I mean, more gold is always good, and supports could always use more gold to stay competitive, but this isn't the right direction to go. **You need MORE options with MORE player expression. Not. Less. **

3.) There is no longer any significant item diversity in league. There is a core set of items that are broken, and that's what you get. Doubly so if you have a champion that syngerizes extra good with one of those items. It's so bad right now that if you DONT have a champion that works well with one of those items, your out of the meta. Go back to point 2 - its the same thing - more changes that REDUCE player choice and put everyone on the same path. Please get some of the items under control. And there are some crap ones right now in league. Why haven't you messed with these? I'm not asking for broken items, but holy shit, lets give some of these some love - If you did, we might have some better OPTIONS to play with. item 3060 item 3056 item 3116 item 3091

4.) **Kleptomancy NEEDS to be standardized. **Why are you tying it into an autoattack? What's the problem with having it hand out an item every 30-60 seconds? It is a NON-CHOICE to most melee champions because of this. Make it proc on spells, at least. So its not reserved for Ezreal or GP. This would open up the keystone and frankly, the whole path to being taken on a LOT more champions.

Why are all of your decisions reducing player choice? Why are you taking away rather than giving options?

31 Comments

zarxus123422 votes

because riot is wants to intentionally ruin their game. It happens to every gaming company and now its riots turn. They try to appeal to newer players and make the game more accessible, and by doing that it takes out all of the depth of their game.

In order to get better numbers sooner they ruin the longevity of the game. See WoW for more details.

Lucroarna18 votes

More accurately, see Ghostcrawler, AKA Greg Street.

This entire forum looks exactly like the WoW Forums when the Cataclysm Pre-Patch arrived. These are the exact same complaints.

Jinx Hunter1 votes

{quoted}

More accurately, see Ghostcrawler, AKA Greg Street.

This entire forum looks exactly like the WoW Forums when the Cataclysm Pre-Patch arrived. These are the exact same complaints.

That guy seriously needs to be black listed fro the gaming industry, along with Luck smith from bungie. Both of them only make games worse.

Penta Penguin4 votes

"WoW is dead because I don't like it anymore"

TehNACHO2 votes

Well, yeah.

Inviting more people into your MMO is good, duh, but keeping them is just as if not more important.

LegitBusinessman3 votes

The sightstone change is baffling to me and you are right it is giving a support player less freedom to make meaningful decisions.

If you are ahead in lane, you can legitimately have a scenario where you can say: Well I can build offensively and snowball hard, that's a risk because if I don't get sightstone we're obviously more susceptible to ganks. Here's a player who gets to make a meaningful decision that impacts the game. That's now gone.

In b4 every single ap mid builds frostfang sightstone and becomes immune to ganks.

T4underbolt3 votes

As someone already mentioned its ghostcrawler work. Just like in wow they make this game easier for casuals, bad players and young people so they earn more money from them. And in wow it worked so well that game is basically dead compared to what it has been before. Plus people actually were blind and didnt see that every single change since ghostcrawler came to riot was made for casuals etc. Starting from juggernauts, through dynamicq, 2 tanks patches, ardent censer etc, adc items cheaper and now simplyfying runes and packing game with dmg so anyone can pick some braindead champ and doing nothing skillfull win the game.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Its also a 13~ year old game that is around a game model people dont enjoy to much anymore being an MMO. It also have a sub fee that a lot of people complain about. ESO, GW2 and a handful of others are around, just as accessible and so on.

I am not fully disagreeing with you but games in general have gotten easier and focused towards the lazy and younger generation. Plus honestly did you play old wow? When you had 2 or 3 hours of dailies and then a 4+ hour raid multiple times a week? I already work 50 hours a week, no thanks.

Fairyfleur3 votes

How are runes reforged anymore restrictive than the old runes and masteries? You took the same runes and masteries almost every single game and only changed your seals based on what damage type you were fighting. Only one or maybe two keystones were viable on each champion and that was the only "choice" you made. The options in the trees weren't valuable enough to matter and you went the same ones every single game

HaIlMonitor3 votes

People look at it "AD Eve isnt good, im being restricted" instead of "Now eve isnt a mess and a half to balanced and all kinds of messed up"

They want to complain because the game is too stream lines, to much damage, or they cant do some wonky ass shit that wont actually make a difference. Its basically all the same to me lol.

Colgate Minuette4 votes

{quoted}

How are runes reforged anymore restrictive than the old runes and masteries? You took the same runes and masteries almost every single game and only changed your seals based on what damage type you were fighting. Only one or maybe two keystones were viable on each champion and that was the only "choice" you made. The options in the trees weren't valuable enough to matter and you went the same ones every single game

Hi there - I've been 'retired' from league for months now (9 months I think) and when I played - I played support Sona Sona

I had a "unique" build with tons of AP and 45% CDR. It included items like item 3504 item 3285 item 2301 item 3003 that sorta thing. And let's be clear it WORKED. I did tons of damage, I had non stop heals and I played her a LOT. Some people disagree with the way I built her but they can suck my positive winrate.

Either way, I was considering (bad idea) returning to league lately and when I saw the new runes I immediately stopped the download and uninstalled it again. My runs used to include lots of mana regen, and CDR. A little magic pen. 1% crit chance and just a ton of cooldown. Masteries were much the same focused on cooldown reduction, healing strength and damage.

Now here I am with the new runes unable to do any of that. I no longer have the amount of mana regen necessary to make that build happen. I no longer have the CDR necessary to make that build happen.

It tore away my entire build style for multiple characters: Sona Zilean Janna Lulu Lux Nami

I can't even remember my builds for non-support characters but pretty sure it ruined them too.

If rito reverses the rune/mastery changes I'd consider coming back but right now I'm not about to crawl my way through a shitty system like this that ruined all my custom builds.

Fairyfleur1 votes

I enjoy the sentiment, but you'd have to test that build in thousands of games with thousands of players to verify it as a legitimate, good, strategy. The old system could be used like that, but when you went off-meta strategies they didn't work for the majority of players.

Colgate Minuette2 votes

{quoted}

I enjoy the sentiment, but you'd have to test that build in thousands of games with thousands of players to verify it as a legitimate, good, strategy.

It was a legitimate good strategy for me that I had used in hundreds and hundreds of games. It allowed for non stop heals and very high damage output. And it doesn't matter if it works for anyone else it matters if it works for me. And it did, it worked very well for me.

The main point is that I can't even do it anymore. Doesn't matter if it was even good for anyone else - I can't actually physically play that style anymore cause they took all the custom play styles away with new runes. If they wanted to "simplify" runes, they should just made them ALL free. New players would easily be able to figure out and manage runes instantly.

k wìx8 votes

{quoted}

How are runes reforged anymore restrictive than the old runes and masteries?

1.) There are just less options to choose all around. We went from like what.. 30-40+ choices as to what to bring to the pregame down to a solid 5. This alone is a big deal. I do like some parts of RR, **but we need more options. ** Your asking me how it's more restrictive? I kinda thought it was obvious that we got less choice.

2.) A lot of the runes are designed in such a way that they are really bad on a large portion of the roster. See my above points for specific examples. The old masteries had SOME of this, but it wasn't so lopsided. You could take movement speed quints on pretty much EVERYONE and have some impact, and possibly discover a neat build. Same thing with Mana per 5, or even gold per 5 quints. Kleptomancy is kinda the equivalent (with gp5 quints), and its fucking awful on half the roster. This is one of my main beefs of RR compared to the old system.

3.) The way the paths work is also very restrictive. If i want to take a splash of health or survivability, i am REQUIRED to go into the resolve tree. With the old system, I had so many more options. Do i want health? maybe just some MR or Armor, and ill buy a health item early.. there was flexibility here. I could tailor my pre-game to what I wanted to build. Runes Reforged is very binary in that regard.

4.) This is to be expected, but it's still a fair point - **there are a lot of unbalanced and crappy runes right now. ** There is a reason no one is taking the armor or mr options in the resolve tree, and its because they are hot garbage. This further narrows the focus on what we can take. Granted this will get better as we roll through season 8, but it's still a big piece of why the game feels so much more restrictive.

5.) As a platinum support main, your argument that I would only take 1 or 2 sets into a given matchup is absolutely dead wrong. It depended on several factors. I feel like i've lost this with RR - now you can be damn sure I'm only taking one set into a match because the rest of my options are **hot garbage. **

Lastly, I just wanted to say that RR is just one piece of the puzzle, and I think there are many other issues with itemization and damage that are contributing to the 'dumbing of league' .. its not just runes.

NichtHurz2 votes

{quoted}

How are runes reforged anymore restrictive than the old runes and masteries? You took the same runes and masteries almost every single game and only changed your seals based on what damage type you were fighting. Only one or maybe two keystones were viable on each champion and that was the only "choice" you made. The options in the trees weren't valuable enough to matter and you went the same ones every single game

Okay, if we're going for full optimization you're right, old runes were no different. But that's not the point. With old runes you could try out a lot of cheesy and fun things and if you had the runes for it, you could play around with them a lot. With the new rune system it's very clear where to go and for many champions there are many paths that'd not just be suboptimal, but outright unplayable and just really detrimental, no matter what kind of crazy thing you might wanna try.

Also, Riot is taking away more and more ways to do anything off-meta or individual with the champs in game. Scalings are being standardized to AD or AP on champs or where it's not the other choice is just being made so horrendously bad that there's no point in trying to play the champ differently. Everything's being pressed into some kind of form where it may never slip out.

Two good examples: AP Xin Zhao and AD Malzahar.

AP Xin Zhao never was broken, but could be insanely fun to play if you were able to take off early enough in the game. It never was meta, it didn't hurt anybody, but now there is no other choice than "Will I go for more attackspeed oriented builds or will I go for AD only?"

AD Malzahar was just one of the most unique things you could play. It made Malz feel like a totally different champ, opened up possibilities that no other champ had and it never even slightly interfered with AP Malz. Really, not being able to play AD Malz (after Riot said they'd keep AD Malz playable after his rework) pissed me off so much. It was doable for like one or two patches and then it just became impossible or at least really really hard to play.

You know, I just wanna be able to mess around a bit and get crazy with my builds and playstyle without it being outright trolling or near the edge of trolling. The only choices you have now if you wanna do something different are crit/standard adc builds and on-hit/active items.

At least I can still play AP Kog...

Theorex3 votes

Its the GhostCrawler Effect.

Can't have things that are out of line, if the players don't get to really pick their own options!

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Roll-Safe-Think-About-It.jpg

La Belle Sauvage2 votes

This is the most excellent post in regards to the current status of this game. Well written k wìx

k wìx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bello Bagheera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AFm43tgl,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-01-11T18:32:38.245+0000)

This is the most excellent post in regards to the current status of this game. Well written k wìx

I appreciate it, boss! Thanks for the shout-out! +1

Tenth Leper1 votes

I strongly agree on kleptomancy. A taste for blood style proc would would be far far better than a spellbinders one.

Terozu1 votes

I mean to be fair, there really arent specific rune paths that do or dont work. In order to use alternate paths for champs, you need to adapt your play style to the runes.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

The support actives aside from FotM are going to be put on new/old items. Do I have to say this in every single thread?!

Abibyama1 votes

No it’s better to blame Ghostcrawler

TrevorAlu1 votes

Agree with most but I think Runes Reforged is actually pretty nice. It gives players an understanding and more of a say in their runes. Personally, I used to just look up rune builds for certain champs, but now I usually make my own off of experience with the new system. Some runes are stronger on other champs which I think is fine to an extent, just not when they get OP like Ez with Klept. I mean, why should/would sorcery be good on an all melee champ with no mana?

Dorans Pants1 votes

can´t really add much to what u said, but that is exactly how i´m feeling. +1 [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

NekoniClaws1 votes

Support after this update:

Which starting item do you want? JK it doesn't matter. =)

How's your lane going? Hah just kidding with don't care.

Better buy tear second tier gold gen so you can stack it in time for midgame.

Hey, now you have some extra gold! You can use that to item 3504 or item 3190! Unless you're low elo then just buy a item 1082 ya' little slugger!

Noblewind1 votes

Disagree with point #1. I agree your're lacking choices if you play a carry mid or bot, but that's not a change to what was there before. But there are now multiple (and viable) rune paths that work for a lot of champs. Look at fiora for instance. I can go klepto snowball machine, I can go scaling grasp heal god with bloodline, I can go all in precision glass cannon with triforce, I can play safe early game with gold efficiency of utility runes, try spellbook whatever. The core gameplay of the champ always remains, but you do have other impactful choices with these runes, and everything is busted.

The high Elo streamers I watch are also having success with so many builds on some champs that it's a blast to watch.

So how is it less choice? Even if it was no choice, that would just be same as before lol

statelesskiller1 votes

i generally like what you have to say, but i also need to say that everyone rune should not be viable on every champion. thats just what i believe. if everything was viable on someone it means that theirs a problem with it. but i do agree that every rune tree should be viable, mages should find some interest in precision as a primary, and such

SithesisLord1 votes

Unless his sand soldiers attacks count as spells and not AAs, i can´t see why PTA couldn´t work on Azir.

AgentBlack1 votes

Let me get this straight. As of now, a support's choice is to rush sightstone, or their gold generation item, or their core support item first (Face of the Mountain, etc.), followed by whichever of the two you didn't build first. So, Riot's response is to combine the utility of the first two into one item that you always purchase first, before the support has the option to start building literally any item in the goddamn game instead of fulfilling their 2-3 item quota. And this reduces choice and flexibility? High Plat support main questioning a lot of these "support mains" and their outcries.

The support role has long standing problems that will take drastic changes to fix. This gives Riot more options in the long run to add more support items, rework support gold income, or rework how supports interact with exisiting utility items (Randuin's Omen, Rylais, etc.). Don't be so short-sighted.

k wìx1 votes

{quoted}

Let me get this straight. As of now, a support's choice is to rush sightstone, or their gold generation item, or their core support item first (Face of the Mountain, etc.), followed by whichever of the two you didn't build first. So, Riot's response is to combine the utility of the first two into one item that you always purchase first, before the support has the option to start building literally any item in the goddamn game instead of fulfilling their 2-3 item quota. And this reduces choice and flexibility? High Plat support main questioning a lot of these "support mains" and their outcries.

The support role has long standing problems that will take drastic changes to fix. This gives Riot more options in the long run to add more support items, rework support gold income, or rework how supports interact with exisiting utility items (Randuin's Omen, Rylais, etc.). Don't be so short-sighted.

Sure, but its a lot more than just support items that I am talking about - that's just one piece of the puzzle. **I'm completely on board with new items. **

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