Katarina

LifeCyclesTWA·May 14, 2015·1 votes·1,133 views

Katarina has been nerfed many times since season 3. I started playing February 2010, about a week before the Pantheon/Gragas release patch. I played from pre-season 1 until s3 ended but decided to come back when s5 started.

Why is it that all of a sudden people are having so much fucking trouble with this champion? Is it because of the increased champion pool? More champions you are required to learn about? Katarina never even used to be considered for high-elo play, now all of a sudden she is a snowballing ranked god? Is it because players today have no clue what they are doing or how to save their CC for her ult? I've never mained her, but never would I have imagined all those nerfs necessary. Seriously people, stun/silence/knockback whatever the fuck kind of cc you have her during her ultimate. BOOM no Katarina.

Makes me wonder if the players of today would have lasted through release Xin Zhao, pre-rework Tryndamere Jax etc..., infinite stealth Evelynn, the Global Ults of TF and Pantheon, pre-nerf Mordekaiser, release Nasus/TF, Sunfire Shaco, etc....

EDIT: She hadn't even seen any competitive usage at all until 2014... what the hell. I remember when players used to get shunned or even called a troll for picking her.

26 Comments

Dies to WolvesMay 14, 20153 votes

what do you mean "all of a sudden"? she's been broken for a long time

LifeCyclesTWAMay 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dies to Wolves,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEJ4daV1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-14T17:21:50.558+0000)

what do you mean "all of a sudden"? she's been broken for a long time

When did you start playing? Season 4? 5? Recently?

FOR YEARS you were shunned and possibly even considered a troll when you picked her. She was considered a pub-stomp champion only viable against teams so full of noobs that not one of them was capable of saving their CC for your ult.

bonfire10May 14, 20151 votes

One of the reasons people will say that saving cc doesn't work now is because Riot reworked her in 2013 and moved some damage from her ult spread out to the rest of her kit. This made her facerollingly easy because positioning and timing to get a good ult off didn't matter anymore, kat could just QEW and do a decent amount of damage. It wasn't as much damage as a well timed kat ult did before the rework, but it was enough damage that people started calling kat op because any scrub could just click QEW and get decent damage.

The lowering of her skill-floor made dealing damage more noob friendly and easy, which gave her the appearance of being stronger to a lot of bad players. But they also lowered her skill ceiling, so older skilled kat players were brought down in damage and complained about it being a nerf.

To simplify it in numbers, assumed 10 is highest possible damage and 1 is lowest possible.

Before the rework, really good players got 10s while really bad players got 1s.

After the rework, really good players got 6s while really bad players got 4s.

Because it seemed like katarina's in general started doing more damage, despite that being the opposite of true, she got more nerfs and more complaints and people now don't even try to counter her or play around her fairly unique playstyle, they just complain to riot until they nerf the champion that has seen less competitive play than fucking Viktor.

Drunk RummateMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

When did you start playing? Season 4? 5? Recently?

FOR YEARS you were shunned and possibly even considered a troll when you picked her. She was considered a pub-stomp champion only viable against teams so full of noobs that not one of them was capable of saving their CC for your ult.

People felt that way about leblanc too. Doesn't change the fact that she's absurdly strong right now.

Champions change. Metas change. ITEMS change (remember, for example, Ludens was introduced and it works VERY well on Kat). As a teamfighter Kat's ability to pentakill is unparalleled by any other champion in the game. In the unorganized masses of soloqueue this is a pretty big deal and it's why she gets banned and complained about quite a bit.

LifeCyclesTWAMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

People felt that way about leblanc too. Doesn't change the fact that she's absurdly strong right now.

Champions change. Metas change. ITEMS change (remember, for example, Ludens was introduced and it works VERY well on Kat). As a teamfighter Kat's ability to pentakill is unparalleled by any other champion in the game. In the unorganized masses of soloqueue this is a pretty big deal and it's why she gets banned and complained about quite a bit.

I disagree that people felt that way about Leblanc. Leblanc was always just unpopular. When she was released, she was the most OP champion ever. She was so OP, infact, Riot hotfixed her immediately after release. Many felt that the nerfs hit her too hard and avoided playing her. There was little known about the champion for years because of that. EVERYONE on the other hand at that time knew what Katarina was capable of, Kat and Akali were the only assassins in the game for years. Katarina was considered a noob-stomper and a troll pick because she was so easy to counter (if there are only 2 assassins in the game, everyone is eventually going to learn how to play against them. Now, there are many to keep track of and learn) Akali was basically the Riven of S1, she snowballed so damn hard. Everyone knew to buy pink wards against akali, issue was as soon as she successfully roamed and ganked another lane, it was "gg, fed akali" "that akali snowball" much like Riven is today.

Basically, Kat's ability to pentakill NOOBS is unparalleled. This is why back before season 1 and up til season whatever, people didn't care about her. She was a troll pick. Now with all the new players and all the different assassins, I guess people don't trip out like they did back in season 1 about "okay, which one of us is saving our CC for Kat? Alright, sweet, you are designated CCer" Same with pubstompers like Tryndamere and Master Yi.. "okay, which one of us is going to exhaust Tryndamere when the team fight starts?"

The large champion pool may be too much for newer players to keep track of. I guess I can see how anyone who started playing during S3 and on would struggle against older champions, because they didn't spend all those years playing against them all the time that us older players did.

bonfire10May 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Champions change. Metas change. ITEMS change (remember, for example, Ludens was introduced and it works VERY well on Kat). As a teamfighter Kat's ability to pentakill is unparalleled by any other champion in the game.

It's like Riot expects us to only have short term memory.

OH LOOK AT THIS AMAZING NEW ITEM FOR KATARINA, luden's echo, THANK YOU FOR THE BUFF RIOT. It's not like they just removed kat's most essential first rush item, dfg, a few patches before.

It's like if a mugger held you at gunpoint and stole 100 dollars from you but then decided to leave you with a fiver and then act like you should be happy to get that much.

bonfire10May 14, 20152 votes

I started playing pretty much the same time you did, but I've mained kat the entire time. I have between 2500 and 3000 games with katarina and have gone through the same thoughts so many times.

Kat was considered one of the weakest, shit champions who was so easily countered that she was almost a troll pick. 100 new champions later, each increasing the number of interrupts possible for kat's ult she's considered op?

Since 2010, Riot added a neat W then nerfed every aspect of katarina's kit, including the new W. It's pretty frustrating as a kat main when you play a champion that's considered garbage but you love, the champion has their style changed completely and nerfed to hell, becoming even more one-dimensional and simple, then being called op by the masses after they shunned a stronger version of her in the past without even trying her.

LifeCyclesTWAMay 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I started playing pretty much the same time you did, but I've mained kat the entire time. I have between 2500 and 3000 games with katarina and have gone through the same thoughts so many times.

Kat was considered one of the weakest, shit champions who was so easily countered that she was almost a troll pick. 100 new champions later, each increasing the number of interrupts possible for kat's ult she's considered op?

Since 2010, Riot added a neat W then nerfed every aspect of katarina's kit, including the new W. It's pretty frustrating as a kat main when you play a champion that's considered garbage but you love, the champion has their style changed completely and nerfed to hell, becoming even more one-dimensional and simple, then being called op by the masses after they shunned a stronger version of her in the past without even trying her.

Seriously, I'm used to Katarina being shunned by the masses... then I come back to the game and she is a goddess. Its the weirdest damn thing, I can only explain it by a rapid increase in noobs. See, the word "counterplay" has become a huge buzzword nowadays when it wasn't in the past. Since me leaving, 3 assassins have had their silences removed, they've nerfed nearly every support that can perform other roles to the point where they can ONLY support, and... you know what? After this Zed patch, every single assassin and champion that can punish you harshly for being out of position has been hit with a sizable nerf (including Blitz). Its a very sad state and is a reflection of the recent influx of noobs.

SonasaurousMay 14, 20152 votes

Every draft game I play, Katarina is always banned. I always laugh and there's some variation of the following conversation:

Me: Why ban Kat? Teammate: Kat OP, duh. Me: Lol, our entire team is CC, wtf are you talking about XD Teammate: Stfu, noob. Reported and muted.

I paraphrased, but basically that's it.

I would take a wild guess that since League has become globally popular over the years, there has been a rapid increase of new players, and they probably played with a Katarina in their early levels before they really knew what they were doing and figured that Katarina is and always will be impossible to deal with. Because noobs don't get very far in this game.

I generally don't have a problem with Katarina other than her ridiculous AP ratios on her ult. Though I usually play Sona, so Katarina ults, I ult, and my team wins that fight.

On a side note, one of my friends mains Katarina and facerolls over everyone almost all the time, but that's probably because of his item 3140 . Seriously. He knows whats up.

IcyPepperMay 14, 20151 votes

Oh god, the Katarina mains are learning.

You know shit's going down when the apc builds defense offensively.

EndlessSorcererMay 14, 20151 votes

Me: Why ban Kat? Teammate: Kat OP, duh. Me: Lol, our entire team is CC, wtf are you talking about XD Teammate: Stfu, noob. Reported and muted.

Wouldn't the bans have taken place before you chose your champions, so first pick wouldn't have known you would get a team full of CC?

I typically ban Katarina too, but that's less because of her power and more because I don't really trust my team to know how to handle her. Same reason I ban Nasus if I'm not planning on playing him, honestly.

FourVsFiveMay 14, 20151 votes

She the queen of solo que, in team games u can communicate and work together to make sure to stun her but in solo que not so much. She a must shut down champ or lose so yah why no one likes her.

bonfire10May 14, 20152 votes

I bet 8 year olds wouldn't like regulation basketball hoop heights. That's because they weren't made with 8 year olds in mind, just like League of Legends wasn't made with disorganized individual players in mind. The "correct" way for the game to be played competitively is from the perspective of an organized, communicating team.

That's not to say there isn't a casual fanbase, but that casual fanbase asking for changes that affect the competitive fan base is over the line. Why do you care if katarina is strong in soloqueue? She isn't strong in professional competitive play, so there clearly is something you and your team are doing wrong. Instead of improving as players you ask riot to just take away this obstacle instead of overcoming it yourself. Why not actually grow as a player and learn how to counter this champion, and if not, then don't pretend you're trying to play the game competitively, because you don't want to get better, you just want to have fun and win even if you don't deserve it.

FourVsFiveMay 14, 20151 votes

Why u judge champs based on competitive play? If that is the case then only 50 champs are viable and the rest junk and need buffing.... Also any champ in game can be shut down by CC, that is why CC so important in game... Kat does not come with CC so proby why she not used in competitive play as of many others.

LifeCyclesTWAMay 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Why u judge champs based on competitive play? If that is the case then only 50 champs are viable and the rest junk and need buffing....

Did you not read the fucking post? I'm not judging her based on competitive play, I'm judging her based on the fact over half of the damage in her kit is completely nullified by any intelligent human being that knows how to save CC for her ultimate. For YEARS she was considered a troll pick, now she is a only considered good because noobs like you don't know how to stun her when she starts her ult.

FourVsFiveMay 14, 20151 votes

U said she have not seen competitive play since 2014 as if it mattered, also a smart Kat will ult when they see the enemy use up there CC or become CCed by allie.

LifeCyclesTWAMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

U said she have not seen competitive play since 2014 as if it mattered, also a smart Kat will ult when they see the enemy use up there CC or become CCed by allie.

No, a good team will have someone have CC ready for Kat for when she ults. Its that simple. Kat plays mid lane and only mid lane. In this meta, you normally have a tank jungler, a tanky top, and a tanky support. That leaves your ADC and your mid lane to do most of the damage for your team. Most of Kat's damage in her kit is tied to her ultimate. Any intelligent team will have 1 person save their CC for Katarina's ult. By saving it for then, they just won the teamfight.

ReverbeMay 14, 20152 votes

Competitive Teams play champions not to play that champion, but to synergize with a comp. Right now, for example, because the Cinderhulk enchantment is really strong, they build comps that allow the jungler to build that item and to counter the other jungler building that item. These junglers tend to have a lot of hard aoe cc that can be pushed with little consequence if they misposition by 50-100 range. Then, playing Yasuo here or Graves here doesn't seem like a good idea as Yasuo will be too easily cced down and killed without consequence and Graves doesn't do as much persistent damage from the backline as say Jinx or Kalista or Urgot.

However, if you remember just 2 months ago, when Warrior Jungler and heavy assassin meta was in, Graves was a fantastic pick because regardless of how quickly he is killed, his initial burst was still impactful on the teamfight so killing him afterwards only really meant that you were killing his basic attacks from the fight. He was not nerfed, and yet went from one of the most contested picks to a non-factor pick because of comps.

Similarly, Yasuo was big about 6 months ago, and although he did receive a small base health nerf, the real reason he isn't played is because during his spike in power, you had Warrior Junglers who provided little hard cc compared to these big Cinderhulk junglers and top laners played squishier champions as well. In this scenario, Yasuo seems like a pretty ideal pick.

it's not that only 50 champs are viable, it's that certain items or power points in the game are strong, and so pro teams build comps to abuse that point. Some champs fit into the role, some don't.

bonfire10May 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why u judge champs based on competitive play? If that is the case then only 50 champs are viable and the rest junk and need buffing....

I'd go even further and say there are even less than 50 viable champs and the rest need buffing. That's unavoidable in a strategy game with so many options, so I don't see why you're making it sound like such a crazy thing.

Also any champ in game can be shut down by CC, that is why CC so important in game...

Guess who falls under the category of "any champ in game", katarina does. I never understand this point, people say use cc to counter her and then your retort is "BUT CC COUNTERS EVERYTHING". Well then it sounds like you had your answer all along... so use cc on her and counter her just like you could with anyone else.

Kat does not come with CC so proby why she not used in competitive play as of many others.

So was this post agreeing with me then? Yes she is not used in competitive play because she is not good. That is the gist of my point: Kat is not viable and doesn't deserve the recent nerfs she's been given.

Dies to WolvesMay 14, 20151 votes

since you asked, I play since before there were even runes in the game.

I'm talking current kat. She's been OP for a while. Close to perma ban last season, since it doesn't matter if you completely shut her down in lane, she grabs a mejais and 2 lucky kills in a fight and just snowballs the game.

You seem to put too much emphasis into "just CC her ult". Unless you're talking about bronze where she just jumps head on into your full team and ults, that won't work. Any player who's even a little bit smart will know to wait before engaging, and to engage on low health targets. She'll target that champion who's at half~ish health and insta burst her, zhonyas, reset city with the help of her team.

You seem to forget that, besides her rework intended to make her less of an "Ult Bot", they also changed how her ult worked in a later patch. It used to have a brief delay before it started to deal damage. They lowered the maximum damage IIRC but in exchange made it start to deal damage as soon as you cast it, so she has enough frontloaded burst to delete people if she gets ahead, reset, delete, reset, delete....

You keep talking about how she's good against "bad" players or how "new players" can't play against her... meanwhile, she's a high priority ban in challenger lol. You remind me of that kat main with the japanese name, something something akuma, and his stream, where people are oh so adamant about how balanced, skilled and hard to play kat is and how she's fine and people are just "fotm" banning her, just to be responded with kat nerfs because she is obviously broken. Kind of like people who were defending Kassawin during his I don't even know how long 90+% ban rate period.

Also, just to add to the whole leblanc business: before her slight "rework" (where riot changed how her ult worked), she was considered a pubstomper trash champion and I used to get reported (or at least threatened to be reported, I never got a warning or a ban so I can't say how many of those report threats actually happened) for picking her, even if I was doing well. She wasn't just unpopular, she was flat out considered trash because supposedly she fell off too hard late game.

LifeCyclesTWAMay 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dies to Wolves,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEJ4daV1,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-05-14T21:07:02.721+0000)

since you asked, I play since before there were even runes in the game.

I'm talking current kat. She's been OP for a while. Close to perma ban last season, since it doesn't matter if you completely shut her down in lane, she grabs a mejais and 2 lucky kills in a fight and just snowballs the game.

You seem to put too much emphasis into "just CC her ult". Unless you're talking about bronze where she just jumps head on into your full team and ults, that won't work. Any player who's even a little bit smart will know to wait before engaging, and to engage on low health targets. She'll target that champion who's at half~ish health and insta burst her, zhonyas, reset city with the help of her team.

You seem to forget that, besides her rework intended to make her less of an "Ult Bot", they also changed how her ult worked in a later patch. It used to have a brief delay before it started to deal damage. They lowered the maximum damage IIRC but in exchange made it start to deal damage as soon as you cast it, so she has enough frontloaded burst to delete people if she gets ahead, reset, delete, reset, delete....

You keep talking about how she's good against "bad" players or how "new players" can't play against her... meanwhile, she's a high priority ban in challenger lol. You remind me of that kat main with the japanese name, something something akuma, and his stream, where people are oh so adamant about how balanced, skilled and hard to play kat is and how she's fine and people are just "fotm" banning her, just to be responded with kat nerfs because she is obviously broken. Kind of like people who were defending Kassawin during his I don't even know how long 90+% ban rate period.

Also, just to add to the whole leblanc business: before her slight "rework" (where riot changed how her ult worked), she was considered a pubstomper trash champion and I used to get reported (or at least threatened to be reported, I never got a warning or a ban so I can't say how many of those report threats actually happened) for picking her, even if I was doing well. She wasn't just unpopular, she was flat out considered trash because supposedly she fell off too hard late game.

"Any player who's even a little bit smart will know to wait before engaging, and to engage on low health targets. She'll target that champion who's at half~ish health and insta burst her, zhonyas, reset city with the help of her team."

Any team that allows that to happen either made a huge mistake or is trash. If this were true, Master Yi should be a high priority ban as well.

The issues with Katarina and Master Yi are the same: They both have crazy damage potential, mobility, and resets... however they both also lack CC and are squishy as hell.

Katarina is fotm. I do not understand why people believe she is soo hard to play against, and I strongly believe these believe would struggle mighty hard against a good Master Yi as well.

Dies to WolvesMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Any player who's even a little bit smart will know to wait before engaging, and to engage on low health targets. She'll target that champion who's at half~ish health and insta burst her, zhonyas, reset city with the help of her team."

Any team that allows that to happen either made a huge mistake or is trash. If this were true, Master Yi should be a high priority ban as well.

The issues with Katarina and Master Yi are the same: They both have crazy damage potential, mobility, and resets... however they both also lack CC and are squishy as hell.

Katarina is fotm. I do not understand why people believe she is soo hard to play against, and I strongly believe these believe would struggle mighty hard against a good Master Yi as well.

yi is mainly a heavy farming jungle, who usually has low impact until late game. Until then, the enemy jungler can yi's team lose.

Kata can roam as early as level two

bonfire10May 14, 20151 votes

If she's so strong then my isn't she ban or pick worthy in professional play? Because she's really unsafe and there are champions who do her job better without the glaring weaknesses of a shitty laning phase, no cc, and minimal damage without a reset.

I couldn't care less about what's happening in challenger soloqueue. The difference in skill between challenger soloqueue and professional competitive play is bigger than the difference in skill between bronze 5 and challenger.

Dies to WolvesMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If she's so strong then my isn't she ban or pick worthy in professional play? Because she's really unsafe and there are champions who do her job better without the glaring weaknesses of a shitty laning phase, no cc, and minimal damage without a reset.

I couldn't care less about what's happening in challenger soloqueue. The difference in skill between challenger soloqueue and professional competitive play is bigger than the difference in skill between bronze 5 and challenger.

she doesn't have a shitty lane phase. She's safe, has escape, no mana, and free point and click harass. She isn't a lane bully like leblanc for example, but this by no means makes her lane phase shit.

the difference in challenger soloqueue and professional competitive play is merely a playstyle difference, not a skill difference. Competitive just works different.

bonfire10May 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dies to Wolves,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEJ4daV1,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2015-05-15T15:30:15.826+0000)

she doesn't have a shitty lane phase. She's safe, has escape, no mana, and free point and click harass. She isn't a lane bully like leblanc for example, but this by no means makes her lane phase shit.

the difference in challenger soloqueue and professional competitive play is merely a playstyle difference, not a skill difference. Competitive just works different.

Having a safe laning phase isn't a good laning phase. Wow you're harder to kill, that doesn't make up for the 20-30 cs lead the enemy mid laner will come out with because you have no way of last hitting that doesn't push lane.

This isn't fucking dota, mana is a non factor for 90% of mid laners with any reasonable last hitting skills. Aside from dorans ring or flask which are both common and viable starting items that give enough mana sustain, and aside from blue buff which is more or less always given to a mana mid laner, the following midlaners have additional ways to regenerate or maintain mana from their kit: Annie, Swain, Xerath, TF, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Chogath, Lissandra. Being manaless is hardly a factor in laning phase and it becomes almost completely irrelevant late game, not that riot didn't already balance her damage with that in consideration anyway.

That free point and click harass is her only tool to cs at range. If she uses it to harass, you get free zoning for 6-8 seconds, and you will typically trade back significantly more with just your spells, not counting the free auto attacks you'll get. And even if that point click is used to last hit, it will bounce to other minions and push the wave, giving you a 100% guaranteed opportunity to freeze lane every time you play against a kat.

"The difference in challenger soloqueue and professional competitive play is merely a playstyle difference, not a skill difference. Competitive just works different."

That's got to be one of the stupidest things I've read. You think the difference between a Challenger soloqueue player and professional players is just stylistic? What does that even mean? The skill dfference between a random challenger and Dyrus is negligible? This is just factually incorrect. I don't know what else to say. It's like comparing a high-school basketball team to an NBA team and saying "it's just their playstyle that's different but the skill is the same."

EvilRabbittMay 14, 20151 votes

I miss it too. Season 4 people dodged on me like "katarina so bad". Then I tell them that now and they go either "well now its season 5" or "whatchu smokin?". Legitimately got dodged just over half a year ago for picking or banning katarina. Not all the time dodges, but quite often. Was I the only one in season 4 who learned that when teammates were mad, I just picked katarina and got a new team without having to argue?