Mage/AP players: you can't have your cake and eat it too.

HateDaddy··7 votes·786 views

The other day I made a thread explaining why AD has to be the superior damage type to AP, thus allowing AD to have options that grant offense/defense and allow AD to do damage safer. That was a mistake because this board has an enormous mage circlejerk and I wasted 20 minutes of my time explaining in detail with listed examples, etc. Long story short, two mage players got their feelings hurt, downvoted and the thread was never heard from again. Great system Riot.

Anyway: stop. AP has to be weaker than AD because AP scales utility, which scales most shields and heals while giving the ability to scale these shields and heals on ally champions. While AD does scale lifesteal and various forms of life return and a few unique cases of shields, it is completely selfish in nature and only works on the champions that buy it.

Mages are intended to be casters and weak between cooldowns, they also typically rely on burst, more specifically burst from range. They also bring an enormous amount of utility with their burst. And their spells grant them significantly more range than ADCs in most cases. This is why there are so many magic resist options available because most burst spells in this game from AP casters are point and click. This preserves the weaknesses of mages being weak between cooldowns but allows them to cast their spells from a much safer range. This also allows many of them to have game-changing utility that their AD caster counterparts simply do not have.

Many of the AD/MR options are intended for melee champions. Because melee champions need to be in the thick of things, they need a larger disposal of items to grant them survivablity vs burst, and because most burst tends to come from AP champions, that's why you have more items with MR/AD than APs have AP/armor or any AP/resist item because APs never have to get in the middle of things the way melee ADs do. And the melee APs who do this will have shields and natural steroids of their own to allow it.

That's not to say that some of the shit out isn't ridiculous. I think the biggest culprit is hexdrinker. Hexdrinker probably needs a longer cooldown for starters. Seekers armguard should just give you the AP/armor upfront without having to farm for it. Deaths Dance seems busted but honestly, I rarely see it. Most cases where DD is "abused" are just cases of champions needing nerfs. PD is really only purchased by Yasuo and sometimes Graves, most ADCs still elect to get shiv and other crit items over PD.

Honestly you guys are totally unreasonable. Yes, balance leans towards favoritism for AD but for good reason: AD is the superior damage type, AP is the superior type for versatility. AP can't have everything and be as good at AD at killing shit and that's the reason why there are so many MR options available. That's also why mages don't need more defensive tools, engaging on you while you're casting spells from 800+ range with banshees is hard enough. Some MR items can be toned back for sure but you guys are honestly completely ridiculous.

31 Comments

Big Lincoln2 votes

you tell em daddy

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE6ayFgm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-03T00:33:09.556+0000)

you tell em daddy

This is a waste of time so there's really no point in continuing since we know this will get downvoted by people who won't even bother reading the post because the title hurts their feelings, thus sending the thread into the dark abyss. Enough about that thoigh, how's life?

Big Lincoln2 votes

tho tbh I think one issue with ap right now is that a lot of champs have been balanced around having a lot of AP -- but many AP items are now less about having high AP but adding ratios to your combo item 3152 item 3030 item 3285 item 3146 etc. also that a lot of them are pretty utilitarian -- giving dashes and slows, etc.

but many of these items are more appealing to a group of AP bruisers that doesn't really exist except for a small handful -- champs who enjoy the health/sustain these items give and use the items ratios/base damages to offset what they're lacking in. most MAGES though crave very big raw numbers because they simply scale better with it. maybe this hasn't actually made mages weaker, but they're certainly less satisfying because of it (not that I would know, I'm not a mage scum lol). just an observation; maybe they're not related but the adjustment of AP items in this manner has led to me seeing very few mages being consistent picks in soloQ.

Enough about that thoigh, how's life?

kinda sore from working, was a busy day but the store owner, the manager who was on-duty and a couple other employees said i held them up during rush hour. felt pretty good

more importantly tho i'm trying to figure out what champ I can make a thread about that'll garner lots of replies. nobody posts in my sejuani threads anymore so i have to find new material

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE6ayFgm,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-03T00:42:52.615+0000)

tho tbh I think one issue with ap right now is that a lot of champs have been balanced around having a lot of AP -- but many AP items are now less about having high AP but adding ratios to your combo item 3152 item 3030 item 3285 item 3146 etc. also that a lot of them are pretty utilitarian -- giving dashes and slows, etc.

but many of these items are more appealing to a group of AP bruisers that doesn't really exist except for a small handful -- champs who enjoy the health/sustain these items give and use the items ratios/base damages to offset what they're lacking in. most MAGES though crave very big raw numbers because they simply scale better with it. maybe this hasn't actually made mages weaker, but they're certainly less satisfying because of it (not that I would know, I'm not a mage scum lol). just an observation; maybe they're not related but the adjustment of AP items in this manner has led to me seeing very few mages being consistent picks in soloQ.

That's fine though, I'm not suggesting AP itemization doesn't need some tweaking done to make it "feel better," I'm merely pointing out that it can't be the superior damage damage type because of how it scales. Honestly, I love how Riot incorporated these new items in with scaling on their actives, it makes AP itemization more interesting than the very bland and generic goal of trying to achieve the highest AP threshold you realistically can achieve.

kinda sore from working, was a busy day but the store owner, the manager who was on-duty and a couple other employees said i held them up during rush hour. felt pretty good

The fucking Legend

more importantly tho i'm trying to figure out what champ I can make a thread about that'll garner lots of replies. nobody posts in my sejuani threads anymore so i have to find new material

idk I think juggernauts are ok right now. Honestly balance-wise, the games in a fucking great place at the moment. I hate trist thi

Big Lincoln1 votes

dont get me wrong, i want more items with actives or just some gameplay associated with them beyond just "i now ignore this much armor for the rest of the game" . part of why i'm annoyed about keystones -- they're putting what could be interesting gameplay associated with purchases into free stuff that you just start with.

idk I think juggernauts are ok right now. Honestly balance-wise, the games in a fucking great place at the moment. I hate trist thi

depends on the juggernaut. i think that a couple of them are in great spots but some need work -- if not a rework then just some fine-tuning to make them do their intended goal better Darius Illaoi . but champs like Volibear Udyr legitimately blow ass hard right now and having to wait for them to get some changes really rubs me the wrong way when we throw these little buffs to already-good champions like Ekko and Sivir

voli's problem is two-fold because he has no real reason to ever justify being picked. he's just kinda there, doing volibear things, even when he manages to end up a good pick.

but i'm super pissed about the tank update overall, especially sej; I think all 3 of the major updates were trash. hate item 3193 too.

I hate trist thi

same, the safety of this champion combined with her completely totally reliable damage output is infuriating

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE6ayFgm,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-03T00:56:29.881+0000)

dont get me wrong, i want more items with actives or just some gameplay associated with them beyond just "i now ignore this much armor for the rest of the game" . part of why i'm annoyed about keystones -- they're putting what could be interesting gameplay associated with purchases into free stuff that you just start with.

depends on the juggernaut. i think that a couple of them are in great spots but some need work -- if not a rework then just some fine-tuning to make them do their intended goal better Darius Illaoi . but champs like Volibear Udyr legitimately blow ass hard right now and having to wait for them to get some changes really rubs me the wrong way when we throw these little buffs to already-good champions like Ekko and Sivir

voli's problem is two-fold because he has no real reason to ever justify being picked. he's just kinda there, doing volibear things, even when he manages to end up a good pick.

Honestly, Voli and Udyr aren't even champions. I also want no part of a meta where Udyr is good if I'm being honest. I hate that champion. Shit like him and Shyvanna just need to be deleted. Brainless binary run at you champions need to be deleted.

but i'm super pissed about the tank update overall, especially sej; I think all 3 of the major updates were trash. hate item 3193 too.

I'm ok with the tank update, most of the tanks are pretty okay now. And watching Sej globally proc IBG is pretty hilarious.

same, the safety of this champion combined with her completely totally reliable damage output is infuriating

ya

Big Lincoln1 votes

hope u aren't a garen hater he's a high skill champion now

I'm ok with the tank update, most of the tanks are pretty okay now. And watching Sej globally proc IBG is pretty hilarious.

i h8 nu-sej. i want my bruisery carry late-game 5v5 queen back

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

I'll betcha I can make a thread explaining the different damage types without being downvoted.

Also, I see the point in your thread, but I can also see how it can be seen as being pro-AD and "AP users sux"

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I'll betcha I can make a thread explaining the different damage types without being downvoted.

Also, I see the point in your thread, but I can also see how it can be seen as being pro-AD and "AP users sux"

Why? What am I doing that would suggest I am anti-AP?

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

From this thread alone,

Mage/AP players: you can't have your cake and eat it too.

And

That was a mistake because this board has an enormous mage circlejerk and I wasted 20 minutes of my time explaining in detail with listed examples, etc. Long story short, two mage players got their feelings hurt, downvoted and the thread was never heard from again. Great system Riot.

Basically blaming mage players for your troubles instead of looking at how you word arguments.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

From this thread alone,

And

Basically blaming mage players for your troubles instead of looking at how you word arguments.

I admit I may have slightly succumb to saltiness

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I suggest you take a bath to wash off the salt.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I suggest you take a bath to wash off the salt.

are u offering to scrub me

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Are you taking that offer? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

But seriously, I suggest trying to look at this from the other side.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Are you taking that offer? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

But seriously, I suggest trying to look at this from the other side.

TEEHEE

ChainsAndDarts1 votes

Remember guys only AD gets the goods.

Anything else that says otherwise is a circlejerk.

Gotta love the delusional

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Remember guys only AD gets the goods.

Anything else that says otherwise is a circlejerk.

Someone clearly only read the title.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

Mage players don't want the cake that's not enough. They want the entire bakery and if AD players aren't all on the street starving to death they will not be satisfied.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stabby Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE6ayFgm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-03T01:00:30.943+0000)

Mage players don't want the cake that's not enough. They want the entire bakery and if AD players aren't all on the street starving to death they will not be satisfied.

Heathens dude

GamerThink1 votes

Camille Ashe Pantheon Sion LeeSin Gnar Urgot Yorick Poppy Tell me again AP champions have higher utility.

Edit: how could I forget Poppy?

2nd Edit: of course, utility MUST be balanced with damage in any champion, I think it wasn't even necessary to point out. If Alistar dealt same damage as Twitch there would be something wrong.

Mecha MaIphite4 votes

Ahri Anivia Annie AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia Ekko Elise Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Kennen Lissandra Lissandra Lissandra Lux Malzahar Morgana Orianna Ryze Syndra Swain Taliyah Veigar Velkoz Viktor Xerath Ziggs ap champions have higher utility

and since you included sion, you may as well include every tank who does magic damage, which is basically all of them

GamerThink1 votes

Sion is an AD champion, and deals a lot of physical damage. Your argument is invalid. And some of the champions you brought up have less utility than all of mine. Thus I won't bother showing more of them.

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

because panth has so much utility

and calling sion an AD champion is like calling Amumu Galio Gragas Malphite Maokai Nautilus AP champions because they do magic damage and occasionally build AP, so we might as well add them to that list

GamerThink1 votes

Pantheon has insane self-utility and a stun to complete the kit. I hope you find a Sion top destroying you with his AD so you learn the hard way. I think Sion deals more damage than Yasuo, in the current state. That is indeed another utility AD.

Mecha MaIphite3 votes

1 stun and a really unreliable slow is not "insane self-utility"

I think Sion deals more damage than Yasuo, in the current state.

GamerThink1 votes

By "self utility" I mean the ability to block autoattacks. The rest is normal utility, without ofc the zoning-teleporting-slowingincombowithothercc ultimate. I can understand better your argument if you contest that stun+ultimate actually scale with AP, but I think you didn't even know about it.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Camille Ashe Pantheon Sion LeeSin Gnar Urgot Yorick Tell me again AP champions have higher utility.

lmfao

Anivia Annie AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia Elise Gragas Heimerdinger Kayle Kennen Lissandra Lulu Lux Malzahar Morgana Orianna Syndra Taliyah Veigar Velkoz Viktor Ziggs Ziggs Zilean Zyra

GamerThink2 votes

Same answer as the other guy. Please. Seriously?

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