Boards›Gameplay

People in this game dont learn because they are eager to use 'toxicity' as an excuse

Hibeki··5 votes·933 views

Toxicity exists and always will exist in a competitive environment and you sign up for this when you join that environment.

In a competitive environment people are passionate about what they play and their speech reflects that.

In any sport imaginable, people get heated. People get upset. They get overly happy and BM. This is normal for a competitive environment.

However league is special. League wants to villain-ize passion (No, passion is not racist comments and trolls). Anything with even a slightly negative connotation isn't allowed.

And people use this as an excuse to deflect everything onto that. Your speech is unacceptable and now I can do anything I want and now it's ok because you flamed me.

Most flame actually has REAL criticism behind it

"ULT JAYCE YOU MONKEY ANNIE IS ALREADY DEAD" "IF YOU COULD LAND AN ULT FOR ONCE WE COULD WIN A FIGHT"

People get angry when your shortsightedness loses them games. And usually flame only erupts when you do it repeatedly. It's their way of saying "Hey dipshit, you dont seem to reflect and change your gameplay mistakes. Let me shove them right in your face so that theres no way you miss it this time"

I can guarantee that the vast majority of losses (like 90%) come from at least one member of the losing team not self reflecting, and their play just continues to spiral downhill as the game progresses.

They do the same mistakes, all the time.

But as soon as someone makes a slightly negative connotation about their play, it somehow clicks in their mind that "well now that hes flamed me about it Im not obligated to try anymore'' because thats what riot has taught them to do.

Look at people like Trick2G and Tyler1. Both the epitomy of toxicity, but their criticism is always stemmed from obvious mistakes that their teammates don't even bother trying to fix. They don't sit around calling people racial slurs and int and trolls games, no, they are actually good players swept up in a competitive environment.

What you would see in competitive sports, like football for example, people are like this all the time. But somehow now in a videogame where theres the same competitive environment, its now bannable.

It's ironic, because when a competitive sports team sees this toxic player, it shows they are aware of the game and aren't afraid of giving criticism. While they might be asked to tone down the flame a little, they are a valuable member of the team.

While on the other hand, the guy who never learns from his mistakes, never self reflects, and is never aware would be fired from that team almost immediately. But league of legends seems to swap this position for literally no reason.

34 Comments

chipndip15 votes

Oh pipe down.

Hibeki2 votes

You are part of the problem

chipndip15 votes

{quoted}

You are part of the problem

I imagine even Superman looks like "the problem" to Lex Luther, but you're still wrong.

Hibeki1 votes

You're comparing lex luther, a guy who is willing to kill and steal to get what he wants

to a competitive player who actually cares about a game.

while simultaneously comparing yourself to superman

......lol

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

You're comparing lex luther, a guy who is willing to kill and steal to get what he wants

to a competitive player who actually cares about a game.

while simultaneously comparing yourself to superman

......lol

The point isn't the degree, the point is the objective frame of reference.

If you're the toxic rager, you're the bad guy to nearly everyone else in the game. In the bad guy's pov, they aren't bad more than they're just "misunderstood"...unless it's one of those really shallow shows where they just want to "destroy the world, just cause", but moving on...

So, to you, you're misunderstood and made this point to "enlighten" us, when in reality, no, I don't need people being overly toxic in my games. If you do a toxic thing once in a while, the system doesn't up and wham-jam your face in. It takes a bit of consistency to get hit with penalties, and some really egregious stuff can have the system one-shot you, but as long as you're generally not a douche, you should be able to avoid any real punishments. You feeling the need to make this post just tattles on yourself.

BubblyRainbows1 votes

This.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Hibeki1 votes

No, they are the bad guy to everyone else who was brainwashed by a company because they TOLD them they were the villain. 'toxicity' wasnt such a massive widespread ''''''problem''''' until riot tried doing something about it.

Believing something false just because someone told you to is not new.

This game existed in a time when people werent like this. So did 'toxicity'

People only started pointing the finger when riot gave them the power to do so. The tribunal when it existed worked on people who would just mindlessly call names and spam racial slurs without any actual criticism, while flame you see nowadays went totally under the radar.

Because people understood that it was passionate people upset and making criticism. Now that riot is trying to be all politically correct, everyone has the power to point the finger.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

No, they are the bad guy to everyone else who was brainwashed by a company because they TOLD them they were the villain. 'toxicity' wasnt such a massive widespread ''''''problem''''' until riot tried doing something about it.

Sure thing, Lex.

Hibeki1 votes

Once again with these idiotic comparisons comparing someone who is passionate about a video game to a super villain who murders steals and pillages,

And a forum shitposter to a god revered by all man kind benevolent and beloved.

Pandeonor3 votes

{quoted}

Toxicity exists and always will exist in a competitive environment and you sign up for this when you join that environment.

Just: no

At that moment you accept toxicity as a normal behaviour you lost.

Wait for the moment where players in basketball, soccer, football wherever - are toxic and their behaviour is accepted as normal and they are allowed to flame as hell.

That´s the world of flamers and would be THEIR excuse.

Hibeki2 votes

Have you ever played a competitive sport literally ever? Lol

They flame and be 'toxic' all the time. But at the end of the day they dont hate eachother because they learn and dont singlehandedly bring a team down

Pandeonor1 votes

Just a word. "Get that son of a bitch off the field right now".

Ah, yes. And I was in school too. There are toxic kids around and love each other later on. And I have 3 sons. They love each other (really much) - sure - and they call each other idiots the whole day. I know.

There is a difference if this behaviour is accepted by society or not. Flamers and haters have to be banned because then we all call each other "son of a bitch" and the ones wich are not that antisocial idiots unpleasant will go down.

Yes. Flaming, mobbing, hating - it´s just normal ourdays. Some think that it is normal and others have to adapt.

Some do not.

Hibeki1 votes

Yes, it is normal.

Its not abnormal to be passionate about something.

Its not abnormal to be upset or angry when other people get in your way

Its not abnormal to be upset or angry when that happens with your passion

If you have ever followed, played, or seen professional sports, this DOES HAPPEN all the time. Flaming is fairly normal in a competitive environment.

To say its not is just PC garbage.

Pandeonor1 votes

Neither is this professional sport nor did I say it is not normal to be upset about something.

It´s just about let´s say "adult behaviour" not to tell others that they are idiots in the opinion of someone. Yes it always happens that heads of countries think that others are garbage and "sons of bitches". But they don´t go at United Nations and make a speech in front of other nations and tell them about this opinion. But wait... perhaps now....

Yes it happens. Orbitofrontal cortex, a part of the brain, is not fully developed in younger guys and so the impulse to do something can often not be hold back. So you can tell a 5 year old that he will get 2 pieces of sweets tomorrow if he doesn´t eat the one wich he hold in his hand. He will eat it most likely at once anyway. Some would eat it (or tell others that they are sons of bitches) even they are 60 or 70 years old.

To be kind and nice and having such people around is a gift. There is no excuse as for example "competitive sports" for flamers to behave like dumb apes.

But - let´s have a look into this world. Taiwanese parliament at a ah... "discussion" in july this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXmPDLRt6hA

Really compepetive. No problem. They all know what it is as they became member of parliament, yes? And as they are Taiwanese... hm.... maybe Judo or Karate would make sense.

And no - there is no difference between throwing chairs within a parliament and flaming or a president of a big nation calling a NFL player "son of a bitch". It´s all about behaving.

And yes - a lot of people don´t know what this may be.

Hibeki1 votes

Politically is different. Political gain is not a competitive sport or environment. Yes its competitive in the way that you are fighting other foreign bodies, but you are fighting over the lives of people and attempting to change lives.

Saying that acting completely hostile in a presence of someone who could potentially make your actions cost thousands of lives is the equivalent of someone calling you a butthead on the internet is actual insanity.

Period.

There is no rebuttal to this. You make invalid and totally inaccurate comparisons. Hostility is necessary in competitive environments. Change is not made by being the nice guy.

The people behaving like 'dumb apes' are usually the ones they are complaining at. Not just me, but most people who flame usually play fairly well, with the minority being literal dumb apes.

Being upset that someone, in a competitive environment, that you are powerless to change, and did not choose to be with, is making your experience and gain from that environment worse, is totally justified.

It's knowing when the EXCESSIVE is wrong. Telling someone their family needs to die is of course excessive. But elaborating your contempt for someone who refuses to learn from their mistakes in a competitive environment is NOT excessive.

If everyone in this game was all nice guys, nobody would get better at this game. It would be an endless echo chambers of yes-men telling you that you did nothing wrong and just play the next game, even though in reality it will be no different.

BubblyRainbows1 votes

{quoted}

Being upset that someone, in a competitive environment, that you are powerless to change, and did not choose to be with, is making your experience and gain from that environment worse, is totally justified.

Your own argument is exactly the problem with your point of view. Now, this is not a personal attack, as I don't know you. This is just an example. But maybe putting up with someone flaming and criticizing makes a particular player play worse. They get nervous or whatever. So there you are, in a competitive environment. That player is powerless to change your attitude. He didn't choose to play with you. You are making his experience and his gain from the environment worse. So by your own logic, him being upset at you (and using the tools he has been provided to deal with that upset by reporting you) is totally justified.

You just said so yourself. People being upset at you for ruining their experience are justified. So if they mute you, report you, or whatever, you have no cause to complain. Your own argument just CLEARLY stated that you agree wholeheartedly that they have every right to be upset with you and behave accordingly.

Hibeki1 votes

See that would hold merit, except thats not how the world works.

The ideal world is that you respect everyone and the way they choose to live their lives. The only time this isn't meant to be true is when ones way to live their life is to inflict harm on others.

Yes it violates the rule you set. But its necessary.

That players actions do not effect only himself. I'm all for playing a video game however the fuck you want. Your eyes closed, controller up your ass, go for bud I dont give a shit.

The problem starts when your actions start affecting other people. Then suddenly you cannot choose to act only how you want to, you forfeit that right and need to do whats best for the group as a whole.

While I understand that that phrase can be applied to me as well, my words can be removed. Your play cannot.

I don't have the power to remove you from my team. The mindset of 'play however the fuck you want' doesnt fit in a competitive environment. In professional sports you would never have a team or a career. The only reason it happens here is because people cant choose to remove you from the equation.

When your actions start affecting other people is when the rule stops working both ways. This is indicative to everything in life, not just competitive sports play. It's why we have laws set for things like Drunk Driving, or heavy drugs. Because your actions can affect others lives, and when you choose to do so you lose that freedom.

BubblyRainbows1 votes

{quoted}

The problem starts when your actions start affecting other people. Then suddenly you cannot choose to act only how you want to, you forfeit that right and need to do whats best for the group as a whole.

While I understand that that phrase can be applied to me as well, my words can be removed. Your play cannot.

But again, (and understand, I'm not particularly AGAINST you on this subject... it would be nice if more people could take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism), your own argument also works against you. Yes, your words can be muted so that they don't have to deal with any further criticism. But all it takes is a little to tilt some people. Using my previous example, you already criticized Mr.Nervousplayer for making a mistake. So now he's nervous and playing even worse. You did that. Your actions affected him and caused a mounting problem. Even if he never sees you flaming him from then on because he muted you, if he's already nervous and knows you were flaming him, each successive mistake is going to make him play even worse from that point on.

That's why negative attitude and harassment are reportable offenses in this system. It's not about "growing up" or "acting like an adult". You have to remember this game is for ages 13+. So a fair portion of the playerbase is NOT adult. They're kids. And when someone harasses them, they're going to get upset. They're going to play worse. It will affect them. Some of them are not mature enough to see criticism as constructive at all. It's an attack and they will do the opposite out of spite (they might be punished and SHOULD be if they outright start inting, but as I said... some of the players are KIDS... You can't expect the mature response out of someone who might be 13 years old).

So again, take your own argument into account. You just said it: Maybe you forfeit the right to say whatever you want and tilt your own team. Maybe you need to just keep quiet for the sake of the team. No one can play well all the time. But people CAN choose not to use the chat to criticize and harass teammates all the time. You can literally move the chat window offscreen or disable the hotkey to open it so you're never even tempted.

I mute all. Every game. Any vital information that needs to be communicated to your team can be done with pings. I don't do it because I'm "sensitive" or anything like that. I do it because I saw too much of my teams flaming each other and arguing and saw it so consistently across so many games that I no longer give a damn what anyone has to say. If someone pings danger on my lane or that their opposing enemy is missing, that's a useful sign that I pay attention to (assuming I noticed the ping). Someone telling me it's my fault that the enemy Zed has 6 kills when I'm 1/1, or hearing my bot lane flame my jungle for not ganking enough, is neither helpful nor entertaining. So I feel no obligation to see it.

Edit: And I do feel compelled to add: Maybe trash talk is common in professional sports, where everyone is an adult and presumably has thicker skin, but this game does include young players, and from all I've seen from having two younger sisters playing youth sports, they shut that sort of thing down HARD in the 9-14 age ranges (13-14 being ages that might very well show up in any single game of league you play).

Hibeki1 votes

Lets be honest here. MAYBE .1% of the community are not adults. Riot knows this too, when they started putting in all these gambling systems (Yes the crates and RNG rewards are gambling) So lets throw the whole 'kids game' thing right out the window.

I get you aren't against me, but if you realized that if you learned from your mistakes people wouldn't flame you in the first place.

BubblyRainbows1 votes

{quoted}

Lets be honest here. MAYBE .1% of the community are not adults. Riot knows this too, when they started putting in all these gambling systems (Yes the crates and RNG rewards are gambling) So lets throw the whole 'kids game' thing right out the window.

I get you aren't against me, but if you realized that if you learned from your mistakes people wouldn't flame you in the first place.

If you want to be honest, then let's really be honest. A subset of people in general are such horrible human beings that they will flame/troll just for the sheer joy of ruining someone's day. I've known my fair share of true jerks with this mindset, both online and in real life. And I think the number of non-adults playing is higher than people think. Now by no means do I think it's even as high as 20%, but since I was in high school when I started playing, and my younger sister and a friend's younger brother (aged 13 and 14 respectively) both briefly played this game after seeing me play it, I think the number is much higher than a tenth of a percent.

But even if it is as low as you say, I still think any reasonable person has to adjust their expectations for other peoples' rationality/maturity when playing a game rated 13+. Maybe there isn't a kid in every game. Maybe not even one kid in every 10 games. But there COULD be. If this game was rated for mature players only, I'd be MUCH more inclined to fall into the "grow up and stop crying about a little trash talk" camp. However, the age ratings being what they are, there is a definite possibility that any player a random flamer is insulting is just a kid. It MIGHT be an emotionally-unstable 13-year old living in an abusive home that Mr.Flamerguy is saying should end their life. Not likely, but there's no way to know. And I don't know about you, but I think this community would be much less toxic in general if people using the chat would ask this question before typing: "Would I scream this at a 13 year old in a crowded public place?" If the answer is no, then it's probably better to just refrain from typing it at all.

But maybe I'm biased because my little sister really liked this GAME. Before I set her up with her own account, I let her play custom games vs. AI opponents for fun. But the flame/hostility she encountered for being a genuine noob drove her out in just barely over three weeks. I've seen what "helpful criticism" (read: toxicity and unwarranted hate) from an overly-aggressive jerk can do to someone who is both young and still inexperienced in this game.

Expecting everyone to be mature and/or skilled at this game is unreasonable. It's a video game. Some people will be young. Some people will just simply be hot-headed/immature (even if technically adult) with a "I'm sick of you, so I'll int to cost you your win" mentality (which I'm not saying is good or right, and which SHOULD be punished, but I've literally seen players do it). Some people will just have an off game and play terribly. I generally have a positive KDA at the end of most of my games, but I've certainly been hard-stomped now and then. It happens to the best of us. I fail to see how REPEATEDLY pointing out people's mistakes and/or insulting them helps them play better (beyond the first HELPFUL pointer). I mean if someone gets ganked once because they didn't ward, suggesting (prerably politely, if only because people are more likely to listen to polite suggestions than insults) that they should ward the brush any time they push that far is helpful. Pointing out their worsening KDA and insulting them (0/4 top. Stop feeding loser) is much less so.

Pandeonor1 votes

1%... ^^

In the class of my oldest son there are around 6 playing this game (wich refers to 20% of the class). And he is just 13y old.

Look at the reality. We are not at 1980s.

Sraeg20131 votes

Yes. Flaming, mobbing, hating - it´s just normal ourdays. Some think that it is normal and others have to adapt.

Some do not.

Ah, yes. The tyranny of the minority.

Sraeg20131 votes

Yesterday I played a lane against a guy who happened to pick my main.

He starts with item 1004 item 1004 item 1004 on Syndra and I wonder "what the fuck, is that a new strat?", so I ask him and I quote:

"Hey, can I ask you a genuine question?".

No response, so I just ask - again a quote:

"What are you building? Is that a new strat?"

Again, no response. First gank happens. The whole contribution of my jungler Elise was throwing a Q on a 100HP Syndra and I still got the kill with Ignite. There's nothing for about 3 minutes and the guy gets ganked a second time... well, more like gets 1v1'd by my jungler, because I wasn't even in lane. At that point he goes on about how he's getting camped, that I suck and would lose otherwise, and how I was flaming him. So I respond with:

"Your build is garbage, you can't respond to a simple qustion, you can't land your spells, say that I suck and getting ganked twice is not camping, so how dare you accuse me of flaming?"

A bit ironic, but still.

After the game ended I had to explain to this alleged veteran player who rushed item 3070 item 3028 item 3027 on Syndra in 2017 that asking for a build path is not flaming.

Kinpin 1 votes

I feel you, met a bunch of people like that. Most of them cannot even take constructive criticism or remarks. It is pretty normal in sports but for some reason, people on this game claims that it is flaming or insulting.

Sraeg20131 votes

Exactly. Until like last year I'd never think of "bg" or "gg ez" as "toxicity" and I played a lot of online games FPS or otherwise with whiny teens in my life. Meanwhile here people would tear you to pieces if it was said not as a joke.

But you know what? I think it's this game.

Back when I played MMORPGs I'd never say anything negative to anybody for any reason always being civil.

In MMOFPSs the worst I called somebody was "shut up, you idiot turk", but that was a normal day on EU servers of Crossfire. If they started with "sa" or "as" in the chat, which is an acronym for their version of "Hello", there was a 110% chance they'd accuse people of cheating and be an all around bother to everybody else.

And League? Here I became a cynical sadist psychopath who'd love to see people maimed.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Look at people like Trick2G and Tyler1. Both the epitomy of toxicity, but their criticism is always stemmed from obvious mistakes that their teammates don't even bother trying to fix. They don't sit around calling people racial slurs and int and trolls games, no, they are actually good players swept up in a competitive environment.

I was largely feeling you until this point. Can't comment on Trick, but Tyler1 was just a toxic douchebag who would int and flame when things didn't go his way. He was an incredibly immature player who made the game worse for those around him. Now, I hear he's largely reformed and if so that's great, but he's not a good example of a "passionate but fair flamer".

Hibeki1 votes

I didn't really watch much of tyler 1 until relatively recently (few months ago) so this was fair to say from what Ive seen.

o brigid o1 votes

You need to take your own advice and attempt to gain a better perspective.

Toxicity exists and always will exist in a competitive environment and you sign up for this when you join that environment.

False. In a game whose developers maintain and enforce a behavioral code, YOU sign up to abide by it when you join. And anyone who wants to hold you accountable for behaving contrary to the values of the code is well within their right as a member of the community.

It doesn't matter if you agree with what's in the Summoner's Code. It exists. In fact, you have to click that you agree before you're ever permitted to play a game.

From that point on it's on the player not to be a giant dickbag. If the community has a zero tolerance, "we will not negotiate with terrorist" mentality, then quite honestly, toxic players just have to deal.

It doesn't matter what point you try to make... once you get toxic about it, your point is completely invalidated and no one is obligated to try to understand you or your perspective. If you want to help your team... if you want to genuinely provide some insight that other players can learn from and use to make a comeback in your match... you can very easily do so without being a jerk about it. And if you can't, then that's your problem and no one else's.

Hibeki3 votes

I really dont care. You can set up these 'terms' for virtually anything in the world, that doesn't mean you have to follow them. They provide a service, I pay them money. Because I dont abide by their brainwashing rules doesn't give them the right to take my money and run off with the service.

Because that's grounds for lawsuit. But people don't have the time, energy, or resources to file that.

Can you imagine if there was an appliance company, where you fork over your money and they tell you "Okay, we will do this but only if you post live footage of shoving a sharpie up your ass" and when you choose not to do it they just take the money in run?

Same thing. You pay for a service, you get the service. Just because their terms change doesn't mean you have to abide them.

o brigid o2 votes

Just because their terms change doesn't mean you have to abide them.

It literally does mean that. Any time the terms change, you're required to reread and click on "I agree" before you can ever play another match. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. By using a service, you agree to the terms of that service.

You agree to the Terms of Service before you're even permitted to use the service.

It is spelled out in pretty clear language that if you don't follow the rules you are subject to punishment. Riot is well within their legal rights to punish toxicity. YOU are the one who breaks the terms of the agreement when you don't follow the Summoner's Code.

League is a free-to-play game. You are not obligated to spend any money. And any money spent doesn't change or hinder their ability to legally punish your account, as established in their terms of service.

Your appliance example is misguided, crass, and it fails to mirror the reality of what happens when you get banned on League. If you want a better analogy, look at it this way:

An internet company's clear terms of service state you cannot host your own server on their residential internet package. You sign up for their residential internet package because you need internet at your house. But you just really love minecraft and start hosting your own server 6 months later anyway. The internet company finds out. They terminate your account for failure to abide by the terms of service. Legally they don't owe you any money back for the months of internet you paid for because 1) you've used the service while paying for it and 2) it was YOU who broke your agreement with the internet company.

Well guess what happens when you're toxic on League... pretty much the exact same thing. You broke your service agreement. Simple as that.

Good day.

Hibeki2 votes

Terms of service do not hold up in court. At all. Legally they are nothing. If they take your money they cannot refuse you service unless you are a danger to their staff of the people around you, end of discussion.

If the terms are unusual and unnecessary or deemed unfair, you do not have to abide them. If Riots TOS also said that I was forced to conscript in a war lead by their government and needed to donate my left arm and leg for their CEO, I do not have to do that.

o brigid o2 votes

But they don't and you DO have to abide by their code of conduct.

NoDiscussion1 votes

It only annoys me when others start it.

I had this jungler a few weeks back who decided to solo invade. Neither bot or mid were in a position to come help, and all warned him off their lanes heading off towards the jungle. He was fighting with the enemy jungler after taking red and instead of understanding he wasn't going to both kill him and escape, he stuck around almost killed him and died. Then blamed everyone.

You know what their response was after they flamed and someone basically said nothing could've been done, that they were all pushed in and so forth? "Shut up, I'm right, you're wrong and muted."

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Hibeki

If riot wants to stop allegations of game states they need to start providing actual info.
Gameplay120 comments
246
votes
Its official boys, the Reddit has admitted to fascism and censorship
Gameplay233 comments
230
votes
The matchmaking system actively works against you climbing
Gameplay132 comments
136
votes
Lets outline the most important issues for the game right now
Gameplay139 comments
122
votes
Removal of macro play is actually killing this game.
Gameplay96 comments
100
votes
Neace said it well when he described the game is less about personal skill but more about who sucks
Gameplay192 comments
96
votes