Why riot is so cautious about nerfing Zed?

DropFill·May 27, 2016·119 votes·5,809 views

But they don't trully care about butchering some champions? Makes no sense to me. That 35 decrease base damage on Zed will not do anything with the 75% multi-target shuriken buff.

153 Comments

YfrappefortMay 28, 201620 votes

Favoritism.

Luner HunterMay 28, 201615 votes

anyone remember the "lee sin" issue back in seasons 3 and 4? where they refused to nerf him cuz of the LC$BigPlay$?

Crowe StalkerMay 28, 201618 votes

That happened in Season 5 if I recall too. "We want to encourage all Lee Sin players, so we're adding 20% bonus health of whatever you kick IN ADDITION TO THAT OUTRAGEOUS 200% AD RATIO ON A COMPLETELY UNAVOIDABLE SKILL. "

Luner HunterMay 28, 20162 votes

yeah i remember that, meanwhile they got rid of DFG and ahri's 20% buff off her E "no counter play and cuz they be toxic breh"

Kuroi86May 28, 20161 votes

Really though. What was the point in that? As Lee Sin, isn't your main target the squishy ADC who builds pretty much no defense? Genuine question.

Crowe StalkerMay 29, 20162 votes

From the official 5.16 patch notes:

"For professionals, Lee Sin is a perfect champion; a strong contributor at each stage of the game, flexible in item builds and adaptable to almost any scenario. For the average player however, he’s that champion you wish you didn’t see on your team due to the sheer number of games required to reach a certain level of competency.

Because of this, these changes are aimed at raising Lee’s floor (that is to say his ‘basic effectiveness’) rather than his maximum potential and give an edge to those players taking their first steps on the road of Blind-Monasticism."

There was also a buff to his passive where it recovered 20 energy on first hit and 10 on second, up from 15 on both. This was a generally well-received improvement.

Basically, they wanted to buff Lee Sins who were incapable of InSecing by making it so you can Ult the Frontline and still have done something. When the change it was pretty much all the Boards talked about for the next three patches, with plenty of people accusing Riot of LC$ Bias (which it was)

Kuroi86May 29, 20162 votes

Basically, they wanted to buff Lee Sins who were incapable of InSecing by making it so you can Ult the Frontline and still have done something.

Yeah, like waste the bulk of your damage on someone who's likely going to be laughing at you for wasting your ult on them. :/ Sorry, no matter how I look at it, it looks like a waste of power. May just be me, but it still looks like a pointless and useless buff.

LankPantsMay 29, 20162 votes

The kick does more damage if you kick a tank into a carry, it does its base plus an extra % based off of the tanks HP. You don't have to waste any damage, you just straight up gain damage.

ElewdMay 28, 20161 votes

do you remmeber when they actually had nerfs for him on the pbe and there was such a public outcry that riot took them off the pbe less than 24 hours after they were put up.

Crowe StalkerMay 29, 20161 votes

Yea, which I imagine was more because several pros threatened to Retire if they went live rather than the public outcry. Still a bleeding shame they didn't force the issue though...

ElewdMay 29, 20162 votes

the funny thing, is that the pros that threatened retirement ended up retiring within 3 months anyways.

Voluug13May 28, 201613 votes

http://media.tumblr.com/1fff100ae87cbe7eea877de443f03ec6/tumblr_inline_muo24ceYPF1qjifel.gif

CerealBoxOfDoomMay 28, 201611 votes

because when you nerf one thing others become meta

careful what you wish for.

Kill a spider, die of malaria

LeeerzeichenMay 27, 20168 votes

Zed is an assassin, if he has not enough damage to kill his target, he is worthless. That's why you can't nerf his damage. So how do you want to nerf him instead? Reduce his non existent utility? Zed has nothing but damage and you can't nerf his damage because he must be able to kill people in one rotation. The only way to nerf zed without making him useless, is to make his damage harder to access.

DemonBoneJanglesMay 27, 20164 votes

plus according to riot, Zed is their baseline for ALL assassins that use either hybrid ad or full ad

Voluug13May 28, 201614 votes

They consider Ekko and Yasuo well designed.

Their opinion is shit when it comes to assassins, tbfh.

SeargentAnusMay 28, 20164 votes

Yasuo is probably one of the better designed assassins. He doesn't have insane wave clear. He has clear moments of power and weakness. He is evenly matched in the early game, but will turn into a madman mid/late if you get him fed. His only reliable way to ult is by throwing out an easily dodgeable skillshot or through team synergy. While his crit passive may be annoying his actual kit is very well designed.

MhihnjMay 28, 20164 votes

anyone who has mastered and mains Yasuo will never really lose to anyone 1v1

SeargentAnusMay 28, 20163 votes

Good thing this game isn't a 1v1.

MhihnjMay 28, 20164 votes

Yasuo can win 2v1 as well tbh. I have done it once or twice. But yeah i am not that good on Yasuo.

yay nibbersMay 28, 20164 votes

Pretty much this. He's balanced around his crit passive too though so that's not really a negative point. He has his Q and autos to do the bulk of his damage where other assassins have 3 or more damaging abilities. That said, he's not really meant to be an assassin per se. He's more a high damage fighter like Fiora, Tryndamere or Master Yi. His kit reflects that in that it has more utility than assassins, who usually have mostly or all damaging abilities as stated. Riot themselves go into this further in one of their devblogs, calling Yasuo and Fiora "skirmishers", a subclass under Slayers alongside assassins.

Zone of EndlessMay 28, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Zed is an assassin, if he has not enough damage to kill his target, he is worthless. That's why you can't nerf his damage. So how do you want to nerf him instead? Reduce his non existent utility? Zed has nothing but damage and you can't nerf his damage because he must be able to kill people in one rotation. The only way to nerf zed without making him useless, is to make his damage harder to access.

They could start with his wave clear ability honestly. Someone like him shouldn't be able to clear waves better than someone who's dedicated to it like Ziggs.

DropFillMay 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

They could start with his wave clear ability honestly. Someone like him shouldn't be able to clear waves better than someone who's dedicated to it like Ziggs.

Zed can't do that. The problem is , ziggs is also pretty much defenseless against zed, and early-mid game, zed can wave clear without having to worry about running out of resources. He can basically endless waveclear, while ziggs is forced to use mana. Even though ziggs can clear and hold waves better, zed doesn't care about spamming his abilities at all

Zone of EndlessMay 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Zed can't do that. The problem is , ziggs is also pretty much defenseless against zed, and early-mid game, zed can wave clear without having to worry about running out of resources. He can basically endless waveclear, while ziggs is forced to use mana. Even though ziggs can clear and hold waves better, zed doesn't care about spamming his abilities at all

Right...So he's better than Ziggs at wave clear then. Zed can do it just as good as Ziggs without having to worry about resource management like Ziggs.

Voluug13May 28, 20167 votes

Ziggs can shove lane but goes OoM and has to back to base.

Zed can simply shove lane slightly after and go roam bot for a double kill and his energy will be back before he enters the river.

Slamurai JackMay 27, 20168 votes

Because when Zed sucks, even worse alternatives take his place.

Weiner the PoohMay 28, 201632 votes

Thats a lie. There is no worse alternative to Zed.

Slamurai JackMay 28, 201620 votes

You prefer Talon and Fizz? Leblanc perhaps?

Weiner the PoohMay 28, 201625 votes

As if Fizz isn't already played a lot? And yes, Talon is more manageable that Zed/

B1naryB0tMay 28, 201630 votes

At least talon has a terrible laning phase to handle, unlike Zed, who for some reason is a lane bully.

Weiner the PoohMay 28, 201623 votes

Hes a bully, has insane wave clear, huge burst, ridiculous mobility, extreme safety on top of ridiculous damage.

DengedenMay 28, 20163 votes

An ok bully if he gets an early lead, ok waveclear when the enemy mage doesn't have blue buff, delayed burst and predictable, punisheable mobility

Best Darius KRMay 28, 201610 votes

An ok bully if he gets an early lead

An extremely safe bully even without an early lead

ok waveclear when the enemy mage doesn't have blue buff

Has so much waveclear that the enemy laner NEEDS to get blue buff in order to match him

delayed burst and predictable

Insane burst even with only his spammable combo (W-E-Q) when he gets the smallest of leads

punisheable mobility

In a 5 second window where you can MAYBE gank him if he doesn't have ult

dr lichdeathMay 28, 20168 votes

and higher base stats than shen a tank

LSmaster16May 28, 201616 votes

Almost everyone has better base stats than shen, its not some zed specific thing.

dr lichdeathMay 28, 20164 votes

... wtf shen is a tank right?

LSmaster16May 28, 20162 votes

He's a tank but that's from w and passive, his base stats suck.

Vistha KaiMay 28, 20164 votes

Shen has shit base stats, because Riot decided every reworked champion should be a wet tissue as long as they have any kind of a shield and are meant to be a tank.

Because that makes sense.

LSmaster16May 28, 20162 votes

That to

1MazaMay 28, 20168 votes

{quoted}

At least talon has a terrible laning phase to handle, unlike Zed, who for some reason is a lane bully.

The current nerf is supposed to hit that, but I think they're completely missing the problem. Sure hitting a single Q does less damage now, but Zed's entire laning phase is about hitting those single Q's. He's not trying to nuke you, he's trying to slowly whittle you down with his endless resource pool until you have to back and he doesn't, so he can just free farm while you're gone, or roam while you have no health so he knows you can't follow. This change doesn't change that, it just delays it by maybe 30 seconds at best.

As long as he can poke you nonstop and never have to worry about mana, he's gonna keep winning lane.

ElikainMay 28, 20163 votes

Wait a second, you just contradicted yourself.

Zed's entire laning phase is about hitting those single Q's. He's not trying to nuke you, he's trying to slowly whittle you down with his endless resource pool.

Syndra as well used to be a huge lane bully - largely because her Q had high damage on lvl 1, low mana cost and insanely low CD. She wasn't trying to nuke you either but 3 or 4 consecutive Qs + Ignite was your death penalty. That was even before the Thunderlord's. As soon as her damage got nerfed, she is no longer bullying people out of lanes.

Why do you think the same treatment for Zed won't work? His poke nerf (-10% AD ratio and -5/-25 AD) does not lessen his poke potential? First of all, this impacts his ranged wave clear (if he doesn't want to take free damage from you) and then it impacts his poke damage. It stands to reason that you certainly won't eat every single of his shurikens which then means even more staying power for you in lane - aka he can no longer bully you out that easily.

Not to mention that the cheapening of Zhonya's is also Zed's indirect nerf and you also have to that into account before making an argument about Zed needing to be nerfed harder.

Hinagiku33May 28, 20165 votes

You forgot this part:

"his endless resource pool"

Shall we compare Zed's mana costs with Syndra's?

BakedLotionMay 28, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AAF8X6yl,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-05-28T01:15:00.458+0000)

You prefer Talon and Fizz? Leblanc perhaps?

Atleast you don't get hit by manaless harass that hurts like a bitch every 3 seconds against those people, and they have to get into melee range to kill you... Oh and, Zed pushes to your tower in one second. Fizz and LB have to use their mobility spell to even damage the minions. Talon is just talon. atleast he dies after he assassinates you.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 28, 20163 votes

Maybe some gargabe talons. "pushes to your tower in once second". It's literally making me sick how this bullshit gets even upvoted. Even if he uses his W (btw his mobility spell) to "push" he can'T clear an entire wave. Maybe one or two caster minions. After that he has 25 secs of doing nothing. Yes, Fizz goes into melee range and avoids any dmg you could deal to dmg you further...

CerealBoxOfDoomMay 28, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Pumpkin Kinq,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AAF8X6yl,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-05-28T01:12:27.631+0000)

Thats a lie. There is no worse alternative to Zed.

then lets see, what does zed counter

Weiner the PoohMay 28, 201610 votes

Like everything

Spaceman5pffMay 28, 20164 votes

He was literally designed to counter midlane

MunchCrunchLunchMay 28, 20163 votes

he and yasuo both counter about 90% of the mid lane roster. you can look it up when you look up counters for either yasuo or zed you will find that top laners counter them because they are too tanky to handle them

LankPantsMay 28, 20163 votes

I'm fairly sure at the time of Zed's design most people were not willing to run assassin mids (Season 2 was great BTW). The only assassin who really saw play mid was Kassadin in the 3% of games he wasn't banned. Most other assassins only really saw play top, Akali, Kat, Fizz and to somewhat of an extent Talon were all viewed as top laners with an off role in mid. The general consensus on Zed's release was that he'd be a top laner. So I don't think he was really designed to counter midlane.

AptestMay 28, 20163 votes

At the time of Zed's design, mid lane had 5 "viable" champions, all of them assassins.

That would be: Fizz, Khazix (then with the spikes first build), Ahri, Kassadin and rarely Leblanc.