96 Comments
ChargeItDownMid22 votes[deleted]
HaIlMonitor11 votesnothing about smacking your head on the keyboard, missing a vital spell or two, and still killing people isn't "hard to play"
Ayzev4 votesThat's only because of how strong she is. If she was toned down, her skill cap would show.
HaIlMonitor1 votesThat is dumb. Anyone getting nerfed enough will show "true skill". I would count her in the same position as Yasuo. Where people act like they are hard to feel good about themselves, but the champs basically play themselves if you are average at the game.
Ifneth5 votesI don't even think she needs to be. She is strong is both solo q and pro play. Once she is balanced, she will probably be around 46-48 for a bit and then gradually go up to 50 as more people master her
I don't even know why people want to pretend she isn't overpowered. She is a high skill cap champion who is somehow managing to maintain a 50% winrate despite a near 50% pick and ban rate. Those stats are far too high for any reasonable analysis.
Zoe is a mage that bullies other mages. Her laning is almost oppressive, with a huge, high-uptime, low-cost harass zone from More Sparkles! and Paddle Star. Yet she’s also very safe, with reliable long-range last-hitting, an AOE hard CC, and a skill-shot dodge. The summoner spell stealing makes all-in’s very risky against her, too.
Her mid-game and even late-game threat is unparalleled, with the ability to delete an enemy carry from long range while retaining her safety in up-close fighting. She has too few weaknesses and is generally strong elsewhere.
Galiö19 votesVoyboy still playing? I thought it was only QT and Scarra left
OnanThaMan8 votesVoyboy still playing? I thought it was only QT and Scarra left
Think Shiptur is still around too in that crowd.
RC cars are life6 votesReally only Dryus quit the streamers have pretty much been the same for the past 2 years besides that
SpongebobIsLife1 votesAnnie bot has too and there's a few others i can't think of, but i know they were mentioned in scarras video.
Oh yeah, Gross Gore quit earlier this season, voyboy has continuous off and on spouts...but still a few more lol
Jefftiffy3 votesAnnie bot has too and there's a few others i can't think of, but i know they were mentioned in scarras video.
Oh yeah, Gross Gore quit earlier this season, voyboy has continuous off and on spouts...but still a few more lol
I mean I never liked gross gore because he honestly is almost as toxic as Tyler1, but mostly with his ego. I honestly hate when people like them get so much publicity.
MOLTinaTOR1 votesShiphtur and Dom are still streaming everyday
vgamedude7 votesYa just make zoe even more garbage. Jesus christ im so tired of riot and this community. Meanwhile ADCs get buffed back and their itemization does as well to bring their monopoly back.
Freaking ridiculous. Azir and Ryze are terrible right now and zoe isn't even very good. Shes gotten destroyed repeatedly since release and people still whine for more.l
Wayward Fish20 votesMarksman is an entire class of champions. If an entire class of champions is taken off the map it should be addressed.
Zoe is a single champion.
While I am not currently having any problems with her, I do agree that every champion should have a solid place where they would be good to pick, or poor to pick based on the composition of yours and the enemy team. She shouldn't be a solid pick into any composition at all times. Nobody should.
Ahris27 votesMarksman is an entire class of champions.
Entire class of marksman was never weak. It was only crit adc that was bad. There are many times when Assassin champs are completely not viable in competitive or highelo as well. But those class of champs dont matter right?
ADCs were just broken for too long that it became hard for them to let go of their power. Now adcs are probably close to becoming mandatory role once more.
Z3Sleeper3 votesWell, a fraction of the entire class anyway.
On-hit & Lethality Marksmen plus Ezreal and Lucian were still viable picks.
So let's just change this to:
If a bunch of champions that relied on a certain type of itemization are taken off the map it should be addressed.
Crescent Dusk1 votesEntire class of marksman was never weak. It was only crit adc that was bad. There are many times when Assassin champs are completely not viable in competitive or highelo as well. But those class of champs dont matter right?
ADCs were just broken for too long that it became hard for them to let go of their power. Now adcs are probably close to becoming mandatory role once more.
Of course assassins matter, but the solution is to reduce their oppressiveness in lane and 1v1 and giving them presence in teamfights through mechanics like Wukong's passive making them sturdier when surrounded by multiple people and giving all champs in the assassin class a passive that marks a target they attack for their teammates (not themselves) to ignore % MR/armor so assassins can be the teammates that makes the picks but without the 2 shot binary bullshit.
That way, assassins can fulfill the fantasy of singling out targets in a healthier manner that keeps them relevant in teamfights and makes them not totally binary kamikazes of "blow this target up or die trying" that makes them useless against heavy coordinated CC peel.
Of course you then also buff their sustain in lane to make up for their reduced burst, either by making pots more effective on them, giving them the improved second wind passive built in, etc. so they are not easily poked out of lane by ranged champs.
Ahris1 votesWu Kung's passive is regarded as one of most worst passive in game lol
Crescent Dusk1 votesWu Kung's passive is regarded as one of most worst passive in game lol
IN LANE. It scales in teamfights. in a 5v5 it's 40 bonus MR and armor. The whole point is to make assassins better in teamfighting without buffing their laning or 1v1.
Subject 51 votes[{quoted}](name=Wayward Fish,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AABO183Q,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-07T01:18:36.020+0000)
Marksman is an entire class of champions. If an entire class of champions is taken off the map it should be addressed.
Zoe is a single champion.
While I am not currently having any problems with her, I do agree that every champion should have a solid place where they would be good to pick, or poor to pick based on the composition of yours and the enemy team. She shouldn't be a solid pick into any composition at all times. Nobody should.
Acting like mages are in someway in a better position than Marksman KEK
RC cars are life14 votesYa just make zoe even more garbage. Jesus christ im so tired of riot and this community. Meanwhile ADCs get buffed back and their itemization does as well to bring their monopoly back.
Honestly in my opinion ADC wasnt weak, just look at 
and 
a few patches ago, and the ADC mains were just crying because 
and 
werent broken anymore
Same thing with bruisers 
could always 1 v 5
Slythion2 votesonly reason Quinn and Draven weren't weak was because they aren't DPS, Quinn only survived and thrived the changes because she could 100-0 people while Draven, being a strong independent champion, could hold his own against the compositions of bot lane.
Any legitimate dps adc (caitlyn, jinx, vayne, tristana, kalista, sivir, etc etc) where all ass because they couldn't perform their role.
Ayzev2 votesKai'sa, Twitch, Jhin, Miss Fortune, Lucian, Xayah and Ezreal were also not ass. If you replaced Jinx with Ashe in your list and removed the "etc", then that would be the full list of struggling ADCs.
ShirukuSama4 votesYou are right, except that Darius is not a bruiser. He is a Juggernaut and maybe the only viable one.
Z3Sleeper3 votesA Juggernaut is quite literally a "Bruiser".
But "Bruiser" is a trash term that needs to stop being used since it pertains to literally anyone that is not squishy and deals good damage (which also includes those that can build in such a way to achieve this).
Most Divers, Juggernauts, Skirmishers and even some Wardens and Vanguards are "Bruisers".
Here's a list of "Bruisers":
As you can see it's a pretty ragtag group of champions, which is why the term Bruiser needs to die and people need to start using the better terminology that Riot gave us.
AetherArising1 votesAkali is an Assassin. Too squishy to be a bruiser unless you build full tank which isnt intended.
Rengar is very much an assassin.
Rumble is a pretty squishy AP caster. Not a bruiser
Nocturne is very much an assassin
Other than those 4, KINDA accurate.
Z3Sleeper2 votesAkali is capable of successfully executing a more pure Skirmisher playstyle via building tanky. Afterall, she is a Skirmisher Assassin.
Rengar is a Diver that can 100-0 people with the right build and with another build can be a tanky Diver.
Rumble is a Battlemage that can build tanky without sacrificing much damage at all (champion that deals good damage while building tanky = bruiser).
Nocturne is very much a Diver that can 100-0 people with the right build and with another build can be a tanky Diver.
AetherArising1 votesOkay sure, so by your method of logic, literally every champion except maybe soraka and janna can be Bruisers?
No, bruisers are, by definition, INNATELY DEFENSIVE while still maintaining damage.
For example, Vi and Camille both have defensive passives, and vi has good base health/defense
In contrast, Akali has no innate defense, though she has some sustain on her full energy Q. She rushes Gunblade into other AP/damage items
For another example, Voli builds pretty much only defense, has good innate dmg and scalings
In contrast, Rengar is a high burst assassin with no innate sustain or defense other than a very small health refund on W after taking dmg. He builds pretty much only offensive items
For yet ANOTHER example, Nasus, Darius, and Yorick may get a dmg item like cleaver or triforce, then rush pretty much only tank.
To compare, Nocturne cant 1shot a squishy with ultimate, his MAIN PURPOSE, if you stack tank after 1 offense item
And finally, Rumble is a weird case. Mostly because AP items already give a whole lot of health and minor defensive stats of themself, but i dont see any rumbles stacking multiple defense-oriented items. I may see them take Liandry's or Protobelt or whatever, but i don't see em take Deadman's Plate/Thornmail/Randuins, or Adaptive helm/Spirit visage, or any of that crap.
See the difference? In item builds, MOST BRUISERS take at least two defensive items in their build. I think Xin Zhao might be an odd case but thats one of like 30-40
Assassins may get one or they might pick something situational like a night's veil or zhonyas, but they wont go for a full defense item or two
Z3Sleeper1 votesOkay sure, so by your method of logic, literally every champion except maybe soraka and janna can be Bruisers?
Yes, that's how bad the term Bruiser is. That's why we don't use it.
Bruiser has no real definition other than "tanky and does damage".
That's why we have "Bruiser Nidalee", "Bruiser Yi", "Bruiser Akali", etc.
That's why the term needs to stop being used, it's ass. Just use the terms Riot gave us. Fighter, Slayer, Juggernaut, Diver, Skirmisher.
There's no use arguing it because Bruiser is not a defined term. There is no evidence to back up what constitutes a Bruiser other than "tanky and does damage".
No, bruisers are, by definition, INNATELY DEFENSIVE while still maintaining damage.
And who said this? Noone? That's not a factual statement, just a personal defining aspect of what you believe a Bruiser is.
And just as there's no evidence behind your claim, there's no evidence behind the list I posted either, cuz "Bruiser" doesn't exist.
AetherArising1 votesOkay smartass, tell me what the passives of Vi, Volibear, Camille, Nasus, Poppy, Warwick all are They are innate sustain, or a defense steroid. Take a look at renekton's Q. Take a look at fucking Xin's passive Take a look at Udyr's W (though minor, its still a defensive steroid on an offense champ)
Now tell me about Rengo, Noct, Rumble, and Akali Of those 4, the only one with anything remotely resembling bruiser is a small shield on Rumble and a very small heal (*until you get gunblade) on akali. Noc? Rengo? Also let's throw Khazix in on the "Can be built like a bruiser but is really an assassin" train.
Nothing major right? and those fellas are jungle, which means the piddly 30hp heal when splash-AOEing champs or whatever is pretty much only to allow them to exist without getting breathed on and consequently 1shot
Bruiser is a defined niche. You're talking out of your ass rn.
Elohaven5 votesMost ADC mains don't even play Vayne.
Vayne was never weak after Patch 8.1 since she doesn't purely rely on crit Shows how much you know
Daddy Ants5 votesMost ADC mains don't even play Vayne.
Vayne was never weak after Patch 8.1 since she doesn't purely rely on crit Shows how much you know
I still play her.
She feels fine with the Rageblade + Ruined King build as long as you ban Draven every game.
Spicy Rice6 votesThe problem is, her kit is a lot less nuanced than azir and ryzes kits.
Not saying she shouldn’t be nerfed, just that blindly making her winrate like azir and ryzes will just trash her, instead of balance he
Meep Man6 votesAzir and Ryze are low in solo queue cause they are hard to play, but have huge rewards in a coordinated team and once you get good as them. Zoe is no where near as extreme in either of those areas. Once you have played a couple games on Zoe, you basically got her down.
Ahris15 votesehhhhhh not rlly. When Azir and Ryze was strong, they are crazy strong. Like they destroy especially highelo games because highelo is much more coordinated.
Aimléss5 votesNo champ should ever be 43% winrate. Even if you hate Zoe, why would you want that for her? Any champ having such a winrate is a huge problem, and telling Riot that it's okay but only for certain champions you dislike is a scary thought that we shouldn't let gain traction.
SugeMinPikk4 votesExcept Azir and Ryze have massive playmaking ults that can only be good in pro play, and Zoe is an assassin lol
TotalJerk4 votesZoe isn't as hard to play as those champions. When he winrate is bad, she is just bad.
FridgesArePpl23 votesI don't see Zoe as being the same as Ryze and Azir, because she doesn't benefit nearly as much from the coordination of a professional team. She needs to be nerfed, but I don't think the disparity between her effectiveness in pro play and solo queue is nearly as great as champions like Ryze and Azir.
Jefftiffy2 votesNo the reason Azir and Ryze are that low is they are super hyper carry champs. They can't be good in solo or they are broken in teams because of how stupid their team fight potential is combined with 1v1s.
Daddy Ants2 votesZoe should be a sub 50 champion.
xXDaBoozeXx2 votesZoe should be a sub 50 champion.
She is a sub 50% winrate at all elos , and has been so for a couple patches now (SOURCE: Champion.GG)
She's also recieving another nerf next patch on passive and W
Lauchmelder2 votesShe is a sub 50% winrate at all elos , and has been so for a couple patches now (SOURCE: Champion.GG)
She's also recieving another nerf next patch on passive and W
Don't make a fool of yourself, use a site that actually is creditable. leagueofgraphs, op.gg, etc.
Champion.gg is inacurate af.
xXDaBoozeXx1 votes[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AABO183Q,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T21:05:24.381+0000)
Don't make a fool of yourself, use a site that actually is creditable. leagueofgraphs, op.gg, etc.
Champion.gg is inacurate af.
op.gg 47.37% winrate, leagueofgraphs 49% winrate
there you go mate
Pika Fox1 votesShes been sub 50 since release.
xXDaBoozeXx1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AABO183Q,comment-id=000900000001,timestamp=2018-08-08T16:54:42.693+0000)
Shes been sub 50 since release.
I know, some people are using the argument that zoe should be nerfed into a sub 50% winrate and I am showing him that she has a sub 50% winrate
BrokenRayquaza2 votesI would be fine with Zoe being really hard to play. That's why I started playing her. Than er,
Electrocute Zoe was found
PaffWasTaken1 votesWhy are people even downvoting this thread? I mean, either they are defending Zoe or hating Voyboy, and in both cases its dumb...
Lauchmelder2 votesWhy are people even downvoting this thread? I mean, either they are defending Zoe or hating Voyboy, and in both cases its dumb...
If I would downvote at all I would do it on this thread as well. NOBODY deserves to be put into the same tier as Azir/Ryze/Kalista. Because that tier is just a dumpster for imbalancable kits.
AMADEUSdotEXE3 votesThere shouldnt even be a dumpster for unbalanceable kits. Its fucked up to disrepect the community a champion has created by nerfing them into unplayability. There are people that actually fucking like playing against and playing as those champions Zoe included. How would you feel (assuming you aren't a meta slave which going off your match history...) if xerath, wukong, viiktor etc. got gangraped by the nerf hammers?
How would Proffessor akali feel if akali gets goutted into unplayability? Kat life and flyerbek if Kat got raped by nerfs? Tyler 1 fucking lost his mind in this new meta.. imagine how he would react to draven getting dumpstered and foorgotten. Irelia Carries U etc.
Lauchmelder1 votesThere shouldnt even be a dumpster for unbalanceable kits. Its fucked up to disrepect the community a champion has created by nerfing them into unplayability. There are people that actually fucking like playing against and playing as those champions Zoe included. How would you feel (assuming you aren't a meta slave which going off your match history...) if xerath, wukong, viiktor etc. got gangraped by the nerf hammers?
How would Proffessor akali feel if akali gets goutted into unplayability? Kat life and flyerbek if Kat got raped by nerfs? Tyler 1 fucking lost his mind in this new meta.. imagine how he would react to draven getting dumpstered and foorgotten. Irelia Carries U etc.
I mean, you don't have to ask me how I would feel. Just ask me how I feel, I love Azir and like playing Ryze
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