Talon should NOT be reverted,slight update or rework perhaps,but not reverted,he is not Rengar or LB

Ramaero·Apr 24, 2018·46 votes·13,691 views

Been seeing this and hearing about this more often lately, particularly because of the recent LB revert, and before that the Rengar revert. Talon kit could be improved sure, but in no way should that be a revert. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Talon after the assassin update became less one dimensional and had something more unique to him as an assassin, not to mention damage wise he has an overall higher potential damage output in teamfights especially considering you can trigger bleed on multiple targets(although very difficult to do in certain teamfights but that is his potential), and despite it not being a blink and slightly less range his gap closing q has a shorter cooldown than his old E and his new Q has a chance to be reset if u kill the target, which I try to set up with certain combos/situations so I can have that ready to be used again soon, but many times that just happens without me having to think about it. And that is just me talking about his Q and his passive, I haven't even mentioned his E, which not even going to bother going into why that is an amazing improvement to his kit that helps in him overall having good roaming pressure over the map, in addition to helping in escapes and engages.

If you know how to utilize his strengths after the assassin update well he is by far better, and in my opinion his gameplay is much more enjoyable. The old Talon is highly overrated, and I really wish people would see that objectively. Talon should not be "reverted", and if there is any change to be made, it should be an update to his kit kind of like how Xin had one not too long ago. I have of a well thought out and in depth update to his kit that would fit well with Talon's identity as a champion, diversify his playstyle more from the other assassins, and increase his skill ceiling. Have a look if you are interested, here's a link:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9AxTIRhc-in-depth-talon-updatemini-rework-for-riotrepertoir-and-meddler

Now tell me if at least SOME(does not need to be all) of the changes to his kit I discussed in that thread you would enjoy more than a revert, particulary the dash part of his E I discuss or his new skill shot I call "Keen Blade", or his passive part of his W I called "Keen Focus". [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

95 Comments

YamikazeApr 24, 201825 votes

The only people who think Talon needs a revert are the ones who aren't good enough to play new Talon. Old talon was braindead and required very little skill to stomp when ahead (getting ahead is another story, of course). New talon actually requires an understanding of macro and how to end a game to play properly. The silvers/golds asking for a revert just want their low-skill, poorly designed stomp-in-lowelo champ back.

DivewingApr 24, 20187 votes

Preach it brother

RamaeroApr 24, 20184 votes

Wow surprised THE challenger Yamikaze actually replied lol. Thanks for your reply, glad we agree.

ZackTheWaffleManApr 24, 20182 votes

Upvoted because challenjour.

Automated RivenApr 25, 20185 votes

IDK. I just liked the old talon better. I don't think it's fair to group everyone into a skill category simply because they aren't as good as you. New talon will never be as fun for me as the old one (new one is fun btw and I don't specifically want a full revert) simply because he doesn't have his blink anymore. He also feels less responsive because of the awkward timing restrictions placed on everything. (w blade recall, ulti double tap blade recall q dash feels pretty slow compared to other dashes, melee q feels wonky at long range {altho this could be fixed with a QOL fix} the aa reset on his q only works like 80% of the time and also fucks up animation cancels such as QR as it instantly destealths you like 20% of the time even if you spam ground click to prevent the aa reset)

Tbh I like new talons kit. There are just to many annoyances compared to the old one. Where the biggest annoyance was typically casting w and walking the wrong direction so they didn't get hit twice.

If I want to play a champ that requires you to break the kit in order for it to work I have riven for that. (it's all coded in now but my point remains)

Tldr I liked old talon because he felt significantly smoother and less of a hassle to play. And new talon responds wrong half the time even if you do input commands properly. And the new abilities. (specifically ultimate recall) feel really sluggish.

Edit also juking melee range skillshots with talons old e requires more skill then the entire new talons kit. So maybe you don't want him reverted cause he was too hard.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 25, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=00060005,timestamp=2018-04-25T01:47:12.709+0000)

IDK. I just liked the old talon better. I don't think it's fair to group everyone into a skill category simply because they aren't as good as you.

Fair or not, its same as fact. The ones complaining about this talon are usualy gold or below.

New talon will never be as fun for me as the old one (new one is fun btw and I don't specifically want a full revert) simply because he doesn't have his blink anymore.

Thats totaly what Yami says.... u like the old cause he was braindead.

i don't get the complain about talon W, i had no issue to make it work at my elo.... Yami does too in chall. The issue isn't the pick, its clearly yours skills.

Edit also juking melee range skillshots with talons old e requires more skill then the entire new talons kit. So maybe you don't want him reverted cause he was too hard.

stop its shameful/pitiful

Automated RivenApr 25, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=000600050000,timestamp=2018-04-25T12:43:25.176+0000)

Fair or not, its same as fact. The ones complaining about this talon are usualy gold or below.

Thats totaly what Yami says.... u like the old cause he was braindead.

Blink =/= braindead. Do you listen to yourself? The blink was more fun. You could juke skill shots and teleporting is simply a more fun concept. That's why I started playing him and Kat in the first place back in season 2-3

i don't get the complain about talon W, i had no issue to make it work at my elo.... Yami does too in chall. The issue isn't the pick, its clearly yours skills.

If you paid attention I never said I couldn't make it work. I said I didn't like it. In fact aside from the entire buglist with his aa reset and wonky q I didn't say anything didn't work. I can make it work just fine. I just don't like it as much as the old talon.

stop its shameful/pitiful

Why? My reasoning is just as valid as his. I picked something random and decided that it must be true because o thought so. That's just as rational as the Lord and savior challengers reasoning.

(FYI people are actually allowed to enjoy different shit then other people. And acting like it's all because they suck is simply being an asshole)

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 25, 20182 votes

Blink =/= braindead. Do you listen to yourself? The blink was more fun.

fun is totaly unrelated. His old E was unfair.

ou could juke skill shots and teleporting is simply a more fun concept. That's why I started playing him and Kat in the first place back in season 2-3

fun is totaty subjective. Parcour/parkour is more fun for many. Ez is already here for blink thing.

(FYI people are actually allowed to enjoy different shit then other people. And acting like it's all because they suck is simply being an asshole)

it only trigger you cause he's right. We can verify this here, most here asking for a revert are very low elo (gold and lower).

Automated RivenApr 25, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=00060005000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-25T17:47:05.220+0000)

The blink was more fun.

fun is totaly unrelated. His old E was unfair.

Not sure your reasoning for this. His old e was fine, otherwise I'm sure Kat's shumpo is unfair also.

fun is totaty subjective. Parcour/parkour is more fun for many. Ez is already here for blink thing.

That's true. But I am talking about my opinion. When it comes to champions that I play and my experience I don't make decisions based on other people's ideas of fun. How does that even apply. I feel like talons old e was more fun. Yes it's subjective. Who cares?

it only trigger you cause he's right. We can verify this here, most here asking for a revert are very low elo (gold and lower).

Most people who play the game are gold and below (something like 80%) so of every damn talon main in the game was asking for a revert then most of them would've gold and below. That doesn't mean a thing.

And I don't give a shit what you think. I don't give a shit what challenged talon main thinks. I was offering perspective other then the opinion besides 'everyone is garbage and can't play the game' I can play new talon just fine. I do occasionally, when the mood strikes. But I prefer the other kit. Was it better for the game? I don't give a damn. I just liked it better.

And you and fucking Challenger talon up there are in fact assholes for making assertions like 'if you want talon reverted you must be awful at the new talon and you just want a braindead champ because you can't manage to function one which requires thinking'

Madsin25Apr 25, 20182 votes

Right.

They act like the new talon takes so much more skill but really it is much much easier to get kills with him in lane.

You then transition that snowball botlane and proceed to snowball the rest of the map.

They made talon a much more boring all in champ while really changing nothing about his burst and that is the sole reason I want a rework.

Automated RivenApr 25, 20182 votes

I mean, new talon in a nutshell is

throw w when the enemy walks up to cs, 2 if they took the cs and got hit by the return of w then q aa ignite, GG you won lane.
They backed off? Congratulations you denied a cs, repeat steps.

Oh yea. Then camp bot after six.

ChaddyFantomeApr 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=00060005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-25T20:25:00.849+0000)

I mean, new talon in a nutshell is

throw w when the enemy walks up to cs, 2 if they took the cs and got hit by the return of w then q aa ignite, GG you won lane.

They backed off? Congratulations you denied a cs, repeat steps.

Oh yea. Then camp bot after six.

I like how much you had to oversimplify that just to belittle it, let alone egored more than half his kit, but regardless, it is still mountains of more depth than old Talon ever had, where his play pattern was,

W the enemy repeatedly"
If they are low enough, E on them then press all your buttons as fast as you can for a kill.
Repeat the last step for the rest of the game.

Automated RivenApr 26, 20182 votes

Old talon had like no all in potential unless you were 50-70% hp until like level 9-11. He had to work to get ahead.

ChaddyFantomeApr 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=0006000500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-26T02:05:17.025+0000)

Old talon had like no all in potential unless you were 50-70% hp until like level 9-11.

After you got Brutalizer or even just tiamat, you could 100-0 almost every Squishy in the game after W-ing them 1 time, and his W was incredibly unfair to play against so it wasn't even hard to do.

Hell, once he got on his item 3071 components, he could already 100-0 any Squishy in the game.

The issue with Talon was just managing to actually get the ball rolling and little else since his laning was garbage. His laning being so bad (as well as his ganks being so strong) is why he roamed so much to begin with. the whole "camp bot after 6" bit from your previous post is a holdover from Old Talon in the first place.

He had to work to get ahead.

Ignoring the fact that "so does new Talon" for a sec since you are insinuating he doesn't:

Old Talons "had to work to get ahead" because his lane phase was atrocious. Getting that first or second kill wasn't easy, (well, it depends on the matchup but generally it wasn't, but not only was it not easy for all the bad reasons, but from there it's basically autopilot outside of applying general game knowledge.

So that "work" basically only exists in the first few moments of the game.

Talon's laning was bad because His W was unfair to play against, so Riot made it into a mana bar drain and made his base stats garbage. Outside of W, Talon had near Zero way of interacting with the enemy. He was either pressing W all day or going in with E.

He had high scalings and garbage base despite being a snowball reliant champions and yet still managed to fall off late game due to his lack of meaningful or reliable outplay tools, and his only concrete form of skill expressing was dodging things with his E, wooptido. Pretty much everyone does that with Flash anyway.

By comparison, dodging things with his new E in effective ways actually takes as much if not more forethought and mechanical skill.

<_>

UltîmaApr 25, 20181 votes

I'm just underwhelmed by Talon as a whole, old and new. Both iterations are extremely binary, ult reliant, and don't have meaningful ways to outplay opponents. I don't wish for him to have a Katarina-esque skill ceiling, but it would be nice if his kit revolved around more than "parkour in, one-shot single target, parkour away". It's not interesting, and honestly there just doesn't seem to be meaningful ways of skill-expression in his kit.

Madsin25Apr 25, 20182 votes

Feast or famine and if you have an assassin like character it will always be that way.

Atleast give me the fun version. Not the dumbed down version that does basically the exact same thing.

ReportermanAug 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The only people who think Talon needs a revert are the ones who aren't good enough to play new Talon. Old talon was braindead and required very little skill to stomp when ahead (getting ahead is another story, of course). New talon actually requires an understanding of macro and how to end a game to play properly. The silvers/golds asking for a revert just want their low-skill, poorly designed stomp-in-lowelo champ back.

The new talon doesnt require skills more than the old. Also the only ones enjoying new talon are silver bronze because no one side step talon w so they get bursted try to play vs plats diamonds and see how effective he is compared to all the other assassins

Ok sure but whyApr 24, 201819 votes

I've wanted the old Talon back ever since they reworked him

I miss the old talon so much

AtaraxasApr 25, 20183 votes

We agree on so many things...

Zed geniusApr 24, 201815 votes

There is no reason to want the old talon back. It's basically equivalent to saying "REVERT URGOT PLEASE"

Big LincolnApr 24, 20184 votes

old urgot was a much cooler design and had a role beyond being a benchwarmer for Darius

DivewingApr 24, 201815 votes

When you're done, can I borrow the rose-tinted glasses?

Thanks

Big LincolnApr 24, 20183 votes

[deleted]

DivewingApr 25, 20187 votes

No Big, I just have the common sense to put game-health before my personal interests.

Sorry that I spoke poorly about your beloved <0.2% playrate, outdated, linear bruisers

Big LincolnApr 25, 20182 votes

yeah this new rework that gave us a champ who's good at nothing special and worthless as a pick in almost every situation is so much better

UltîmaApr 25, 20182 votes

Disagree with everything else you said except this. Urgot was an extremely binary and uninteractive champion before his rework. A rework was inevitable and needed, and his new kit is much better for the game overall. He is however in a terrible spot balance-wise at the moment, and Riot needs to look at him to make him a meaningful pick in some team-comps.

TempName74814Apr 25, 20182 votes

he does a fairly decent job at shutting down top laners that rely on laning phase dominance

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 24, 20182 votes

Laning against old Urgot was so fun as melee [sg-miss-fortune]

Automated RivenApr 25, 20181 votes

As tho laning against new urgot is more fun? At least old urgot you could Dodge his extremely slow very small aoe e and not get hit by the q's Now you walk up to cs and you get hit by shotgun blasts through the minions.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 25, 20181 votes

???? only thing avoidable was his small bomb.

His Q and R were a point and clic, and his Q had f*cking big range.

Automated RivenApr 25, 20181 votes

That shows how much you actually know about the old urgot. Wtf? Do you fucking research before you come here spewing shit.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 25, 20181 votes

i could say same about your last complain

now we can play around Urgot kit, before his update an AD melee were just abused by urgo.

Automated RivenApr 25, 20181 votes

Well for your information, if you dodged his 'small bomb' his q was not point and click and had half the range. So. the more you know. So yes. You there was counter play to old urgot (maybe not enough) but it was there.

DivewingApr 25, 20181 votes

"Pink ward the spears"

LordGeovanniApr 25, 20182 votes

Old Urgot Was better than new urgot in everything but his ult (which i had no problem with his old ult) . Old urgot suffered from being labeled as a marksmen riot said okay i guess the old ult doesnt fit a marksmen and then they completely kicked that fucking concept of being a marksmen out the door with his new ult in that case old urgots ult had no problems then if they dont want him to be a marksmen anymore. Only thing New urgot does better is say fuck you to tanks and bruisers because despite those classes being designed to work on low hp (after taking initial burst because riot wants defenses to be dog shit because it takes too long to kill them 1v1 if defenses are strong and thus they cant tank a 5 man team for any amount of time. )new urgot says nope fuck that % max hp true damage execution and to shit on them even further it has a massive fear on it.

Pokemonred200Apr 24, 201812 votes

I miss being the Teamfight assassin.

Now the 'Teamfight Assassin' is Katarina :(

DW DianaApr 24, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I miss being the Teamfight assassin.

Now the 'Teamfight Assassin' is :(

It's not that you aren't a teamfight assassin, it's that your role is different to hers. Her job is to dive hin, burst her combo out and then hope everyone is dead.

Talon jumps over the wall in the back like of the enemy team and deletes their adc before harassing the support (if it's an enchanter) or running like hell (If its a tank).

ChaddyFantomeApr 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-24T18:55:35.180+0000)

It's not that you aren't a teamfight assassin, it's that your role is different to hers. Her job is to dive hin, burst her combo out and then hope everyone is dead.

Talon jumps over the wall in the back like of the enemy team and deletes their adc before harassing the support (if it's an enchanter) or running like hell (If its a tank).

So basically like old Talon then? [slayer-jinx-wink]

RamaeroApr 24, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I miss being the Teamfight assassin.

Now the 'Teamfight Assassin' is :(

Talon can teamfight better than the older Talon with what I have experienced since the change. That being said, Katerina's potential to just destroy everyone in a teamfight was always better before and after the assassin update, she is the penta queen lol*[katarina-love]*

Automated RivenApr 25, 20183 votes

Old talon was better in teamfights due to sheer damage. New talon does piss poor aoe and fuck all for damage without his passive. (barring late game where he can do the same 1shot from stealthed r)

Votable JesterApr 25, 20183 votes

Old Talon wasn't likely to get all the kills, but he'd chunk everyone down fairly well and apply stacks of BC to them all, helping the adc shred them down. That was largely possible because of his blink making it possible for him to actually get in the middle of the fight to hit them all with his W and R, and with so much of his damage on his passive, he can't aoe burst so much with just W and R.

That being said, he does have stronger teamfight if you are able to proc your passive on multiple people and is better at cleaning up with his E.

Wukong AirlinesApr 25, 201811 votes

First of all, the fact that you're hypothetically assuming the new Talon can do more AOE burst in teamfights and you're able to apply Blade's End "passive" on multiple targets is a massive unicorn daydream-like delusion.

I will not judge your assumption based on Elo, but when you start playing in plat3+ it becomes harder to reach the ADC and even to assassinate him/her, and with Lulu or Janna it becomes even harder to achieve that, so you can dream about applying that multiple passive if they're completely bonobos.

Seconds, so far I've never seen a thread asking for a complete Talon revert. My previous thread which confirmed the "Q" range bugfix to be fixed focused more on semi-reverting/reworking or/and adjusting parts of Talon's kits, so losing the new "E" is not questionable and would completely make Talon lose his unique theme.

All he needs is his Damage to be re-adjusted, take some from his passive, and put it somewhere in his kit.

we can give him a "passive" on [E] or [Q] as a damage amplifier
we can allow Talon to cast spells mid-air [not only cast R]
revert the [W] or rework it to be faster and apply slow on both ways
the [Q] range will be fixed, but we can add more speed to the dash.
referring to point no. (2) . casting spells mid-air give them bonuses or sort of enhancement, ex: {{ casting [Q] mid-air increases the range of [Q], or casting [W] mid-air increases the missile-speed of [W] }}

Either way Talon needs some help, whether it's a revert, semi-revert or mini-rework, it's unquestionable , even a high Challenger should admit it.

Power CosmicApr 24, 20187 votes

Old Talon was more fun and cooler. Jumping over everything on no cooldown doesn't fit into the game.

RamaeroApr 24, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Old Talon was more fun and cooler. Jumping over everything on no cooldown doesn't fit into the game.

Kayn says hi, lol, who needs to jump over when you can move through them and choose where and when exactly to get out. [sg-ezreal]

Also how is flipping over walls terrain not cool though?[zombie-brand-mindblown] also there is a cooldown via the terrain cooldowns and the E itself, there's two parts. I prefer a dash and having flexibility in my movement by going over terrain, than having the old long cooldown e for sure, plus dashing in with Q is cool too.

CasterGilgameshApr 24, 20186 votes

i just want talons cut throat back thats all i want

iPooUnicornsApr 24, 20185 votes

If Riot does anything that isn't just number changes to Talon, they should make his E a mini-dash similar to Riven's E and if it collides with terrain, he leaps over it. Obviously it would need a cooldown, but have it reset when used to cross over terrain. That way he isn't stuck with a tiny gapclose on his Q for teamfights.

ChaddyFantomeApr 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If Riot does anything that isn't just number changes to Talon, they should make his E a mini-dash similar to Riven's E and if it collides with terrain, he leaps over it. Obviously it would need a cooldown, but have it reset when used to cross over terrain. That way he isn't stuck with a tiny gapclose on his Q for teamfights.

That seems like very clicky design. If Talon is using this for anythign other than goign over walls, then he has no escape now.

The only practical use for this at that point would be helping him escape ganks easier.

Pls M8 No KillMay 8, 20183 votes

You're 1000% wrong.

Revert Talon.

He's bad in any role/lane.

Disagree? You're wrong. Fact.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 24, 20182 votes

Just adress the E bug, and would be enough.

Bugged since his update !!!! Come on Riot.

ChaddyFantomeApr 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AA8z8Iyl,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-04-24T22:05:11.435+0000)

Just adress the E bug, and would be enough.

Bugged since his update !!!! Come on Riot.

This