Why I don't like new Talon

Radiant Wukong··4 votes·599 views

I'm going to word this in a way that'll help the boards community understand my stance.

Pre assassin update, I used Talon as a counterpick to ranged champions top/mid (with the exception of Urgot and Lissandra). I never did roam with Talon much, Cutthroat was used to absolutely destroy Viegar/Lux/Quinn/Morgana/Vayne/Ziggs/Cait/Ahri/Brand as I could blink past their CC spells or in cases like Quinn/Ziggs get the advantageous position as Cutthroat would put me behind my opponent (bounce the same way as Ziggs, Quinn vaults towards my turret). Ahri's charm would miss, whiffed Morgana bind, blink pass Veigar arena stun.

Now that's it's a dash, it's impossible for me to lane against matchups I easily crushed. Veigar used to be my favorite victim, now I can't even get a single touch on him in lane.

My Talon strategy was lane dominance and siege towers. Kill my lane opponent and take the tower.

His new identity doesn't allow that laning power. Now His strength is in "roaming" and as a champion I've played for 4 or 5 seasons, it's hard to make that adjustment.

Maybe I'm just too noob to adapt, but I definitely prefer old Talon over new Talon for the sole reason that old Talon had a blink that put you behind your opponent instead of an easily stoppable dash that face checks the opponent. A dash that allows Veigar to absolutely zone me.

I'm not a fan of reworks that change favorable matchups into whatever the hell you want to call his matchup against Veigar now.

13 Comments

Edge of Daybreak5 votes

Yeah it does suck that his worst matchups are basically mages he used to have some chance against. Now he just has so little options in laning that you are more or less forced to clear and leave because no one competent is going to die to you 1v1. No clue why the sneaky assassin has to jump at you in a straight line and the delays on his damage are just meme worthy.

Arakadia3 votes

Well the fact you could instantly blink behind them to dodge their CC without much, if any, timing wasn't very fair.

But your point is incredibly valid. +1

I feel something similar to this happened to Galio.

Divewing2 votes

I suppose your point is valid, but what you have to remember is that these champions are normally reworked for a reason.

Talon was horrifically vanilla.

His roaming theme was more simply because he had a great kit for it, rather than it was designed for roaming.

For someone in your position, this makes things awkward because you never played talon because he was talon, you played him because he countered specific matchups.

Fact is the blink had to go. It was too binary.

If you need a counterpick, try Zed, shadows essentially provide a similar function, albeit requiring more finesse

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Talon was my mid lane main, he was my 3rd most used champ after Kong and J4. My new mid lane main is Nocturne until Talon gets fixed.

Divewing1 votes

But you are looking for something that will never happen.

You want Talon to be old Talon simply because you want a champion with a point click blink.

Riot finally gave Talon a proper identity and theme, and his kit is infinitely more healthy than before.

They won't give that up simply because people want a champion with a blink, you'll be looking at a new champion for something like that

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Akali, Kat, Zed, Fizz, Yi all have free mobility that lets them get around Veigar's stun, why was this privilege taken away from Talon?

Even Yasuo can do it with his ult.

Nightingales Sky1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A39IBgEG,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T03:29:12.011+0000)

Akali, Kat, Zed, Fizz, Yi all have free mobility that lets them get around Veigar's stun, why was this privilege taken away from Talon?

Even Yasuo can do it with his ult.

As someone who has used alkali since season 2 I feel that I have to correct you. Akali, has never had a blink her ultimate was and has been able to be cancelled by CC. More than ever now with her 1second CD between dashes she is more vulnerable to counter attack than ever before. While I agree that his straight forward dash makes his kits more predictable, his kit is 10x more healthy than before. Stop crying because you feel that one of your mains is useless now against those you use to crush. If anything, talon still has all in potential, but now he has escape and counter play potential. I've played against many talons who have managed to dictate a match because they knew the potential of his kit. Sorry kid but it sounds like you're just crying because mages you use to blink-silence-slow-ultimate; you can't anymore.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Actually, Akali's shroud is a short ranged blink that can be used to phase through Morgana Lux bind Veigar wall. A true Akali main would have known this.

Secondly, at no point did I ever say new Talon was weak, he's stronger than he's ever been before burst/damage wise. His new passive allows you to combo then walk away as they bleed out (literally double the damage on bleed than 5 stack Darius and it can be proc'd twice in one combo).

double bleed combo = W > Q > AA > R > Q > AA.

The argument is that Talon is not solo strong anymore and it has everything to do with his nerfed range and blink (which Akali has as explained above Mr. Akali User, the added the blink to her shroud in the assassin update, knowledge before typing) being changed to a dash.

I don't care about his silence, I don't care about his slow, my only issue is the reduced range of his current gap closer and the fact they felt the need to replace his blink with a dash when Zed is a way more dangerous and mobile champion.

His blink had 650 range (originally designed so that he could gap close on any champion within AA range with the exception of Twitch ult and Kog'maw W... Jinx wasn't a champion yet, but it falls short of her Q and slightly short of Tristana at level 18).

Not only did they change it from a 650 blink that put you behind the opponent (the one thing I fell in love with, my 2nd favorite ability in the game after Wukong's decoy) but the new run straight at your face very quickly animation only has a range of 550. He is ridiculously easy to kite.

The power from Talon wasn't in his debuffs or status effect, his identity was a pure assassin, he's has the quickest burst no doubt, but he doesn't actually have a way to get close enough to use it anymore.

Nightingales Sky1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A39IBgEG,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T09:07:24.229+0000)

Actually, Akali's shroud is a short ranged blink that can be used to phase through Morgana Lux bind Veigar wall. A true Akali main would have known this.

Secondly, at no point did I ever say new Talon was weak, he's stronger than he's ever been before burst/damage wise. His new passive allows you to combo then walk away as they bleed out (literally double the damage on bleed than 5 stack Darius and it can be proc'd twice in one combo).

double bleed combo = W > Q > AA > R > Q > AA.

The argument is that Talon is not solo strong anymore and it has everything to do with his nerfed range and blink (which Akali has as explained above Mr. Akali User, the added the blink to her shroud in the assassin update, knowledge before typing) being changed to a dash.

I don't care about his silence, I don't care about his slow, my only issue is the reduced range of his current gap closer and the fact they felt the need to replace his blink with a dash when Zed is a way more dangerous and mobile champion.

His blink had 650 range (originally designed so that he could gap close on any champion within AA range with the exception of Twitch ult and Kog'maw W... Jinx wasn't a champion yet, but it falls short of her Q and slightly short of Tristana at level 18).

Not only did they change it from a 650 blink that put you behind the opponent (the one thing I fell in love with, my 2nd favorite ability in the game after Wukong's decoy) but the new run straight at your face very quickly animation only has a range of 550. He is ridiculously easy to kite.

The power from Talon wasn't in his debuffs or status effect, his identity was a pure assassin, he's has the quickest burst no doubt, but he doesn't actually have a way to get close enough to use it anymore.

Oh my fault. Her "blink" fro, her shroud is in the same comparison to Talons blink that I forgot to compare them. Even with her short "blink" she is still highly counterable and easily focused when she tried to go all in. Unless someone is going to try dueling an akali, you're going to see her use: Q-R-AA--W-Q-R-AA. Which would be a standard combo. Notice how the shroud is thrown in the combo to try avoiding counterplay.

But, I digress. Mr. Talon player. Talon has more than enough time to deliver strong burst of damage to his enemies and has an even stronger roam than before. His identity as you say is even more true to his nature. I can't count how many times a talon assassinated a squish on my team then just parkoured his way to freedom. Like a true assassin. They had to bring his landing down because he was just become too much. Hell... I remember jungle talon now that was a nut are to deal with.

It just sounds like crying to me. Can you imagine giving him his blink back with the kit he has? R into invisible, blink behind enemy, bleed effect, and slow. Not to mention his free movement around the map. He is the only champion to freely use the map as his own tool. Other champions can jump over walls sure, but talon, is the only one that can actually use the map as an extension of himself.

I remember learning Diana and one of the escapes a Diana player would try to pull off would be Q-R to the raptors on her side of the jungle. That means you have:

  1. hope the raptors are up
  2. have enough health to survive jumping to the raptors and travel though them
  3. time it close enough that you're able to leave lane without fear of them following.

You might get them to burn a flash or something of the sort. But, with talon, even if you burn a flash in pursuit you still run a high risk of losing him in the jungle because he can just jump walls. So, yeah, Talon is in a great place right now. And, if you agree with that, and you know it, then why try to pursue a blink for him just to give him a stronger lane phase?

Radiant Wukong1 votes

His kit would be the exact same, his long range Q would just chance from dash to blink behind the target.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

No offense... but it seems as u are really bad here. Talon have no issue against Veigar. Old Talon was bad, i mean unhealthy. Come on a Blink.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Kat, Zed, Yi, Yasuo, and Akali still have blinks, so why shouldn't Talon have his?

You can include Fizz as well, while it's not a blink, it functions the same.

Also, with the exception of Yasuo (who has his wind wall) the rest can use there's as an escape tool.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Kat : she dash on her blade, if there no blade she almost deal no damage. Zed : blink on his shadow. Yasuo : need a bump to "blinks" with his ult Akali : ult is stupid... But she'll be reworked.

Talon is better now. With the old u were having 2 option u OS or u are the OShotted. Dumber than the current Wukong (weak pick too). As a Talon player u should remember what's option ur opponent had against u (almost none).

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