Thornmail needs to be fixed

Best princess EU··9 votes·497 views
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/4f/Thornmail_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20130731234542

Riot, this item no longer counters autoattack champions, it's just an item that you get on malphite/rammus and stack massive armor. On every other champions it sucks so hard and deal so little damage.

let's make a complete description of thornmail balance AND design issue. On this current patch it reflects 15% of the damage taken from a basic attack. Meaning that if you take 500 damage from a crit, you will deal 75 damage to the adc, it also deals of your 25% armor, let's be honest a tank that isn't rammus/malphite will have at best 200 armor so you deal 75+50 damage, and i'm asking you: what the fuck? cause 125 damage on 2000 hp is nothing at all in late game, considering that the adc didn't build item 3046 item 3155 item 3026 item 3102 which is really impossible right now, because everyone undestood that thornmail is countered by magic resistance. be aware that thornmail isn't countered by lifesteal (since you gain 20 hp or 30 hp back by attack) but lifesteal combined with magic resistance can make he entire item useless compared to item 3143

But the problem is that thornmail has no window of power, the passive is always here and if thornmail was good there would be no way to play against it.

What riot needs to do is keeping the current power of thornmail's passive while adding an active to it to counter basic attack. It can be an increased return damage, or make it reducing basic attack damage by 15%.

18 Comments

Critmaster Garen3 votes

i said it a 100 times and im saying it again.

make the flat damage return scale with maximum health.

the difference between Malphite and any regular fighter/tank is a that he can get up to 700 armor vs. 250 to 300 armor on other fighters or tanks. this is a gigantic difference.

item 3075 has to literally be balanced around this one single champion right now. if they buffed it to be decent on any other champion, malphite would become godlike with it.

but health is different. even in extreme cases the difference between Chogath Sion and other fighters and tanks will be about 4500 health vs. 3500 health on average.

thats a much smaller gap in health, than possible gap in armor. meaning if thornmail were balanced around Sion Chogath, it would still be good on regular fighters and tanks.

not only that, but if you buy a big armor item like thornmail, the last thing you want to do is to buy another item like item 3110 to boost its passive. what you want to do is to stack health to synergize with all the armor you just bought. which means health scaling on the thing would be much more beneficial.

Best princess EU2 votes

making it scalling with hp will make juggernaut abusing it, thornmail should be dedicated to tanks.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A21cI2gK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-16T13:36:03.785+0000)

making it scalling with hp will make juggernaut abusing it, thornmail should be dedicated to tanks.

thornmail should be a counter item against adc heavy teams.

it should be available to fighters and tanks like it always has been. you cant separate tank and juggernaut itemization either way. theyre buying the same defensive items, because theyre designed around it.

DarkRitual2 votes

It would also be even better on tank junglers than other tanks, since Cinderhulk's %health bonus.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

Thornmail is a tank snowball item. You buy it when you're ahead and want to completely shut down enemy auto attackers. You do not buy this item when you are even. That's why it's so cheap; it's an item you buy when you're snowballing on tanks and no other time.

DarkRitual1 votes

item 3075 Thornmail Price: X Gold Buildpath: Same?

+75 Armor

Unique Passive- Damage Reflection: User reflects 50% of any physical damage done as magic damage. Maximum damage deflected from a single source is X (100% of your Bonus Armor)

Current thornmail is either tuned too strong against AA champs, or completely useless because the enemy doesn't rely on basic attacks at all to kill you, or completely terrible like it currently is. This would make it give less stats, but make it usable against a wider range of champions. The Bonus Armor reflection cap prevents it from being built on ADC's and Mages (or at least prevents it from being effective if they do buy it). Of course numbers are adjustable. Could also make it pre-mitigation damage, but lower the damage% reflected.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

item 3075 Thornmail Price: X Gold Buildpath: Same?

+75 Armor

Unique Passive- Damage Reflection: User reflects 50% of any physical damage done as magic damage. Maximum damage deflected from a single source is X (100% of your Bonus Armor)

Current thornmail is either tuned too strong against AA champs, or completely useless because the enemy doesn't rely on basic attacks at all to kill you, or completely terrible like it currently is. This would make it give less stats, but make it usable against a wider range of champions. The Bonus Armor reflection cap prevents it from being built on ADC's and Mages (or at least prevents it from being effective if they do buy it). Of course numbers are adjustable. Could also make it pre-mitigation damage, but lower the damage% reflected.

this, again would make it ridiculously strong on Malphite who can stack insane amounts of armor to get a very high damage return.

i just said it. malphite can get up to beween 500 and 700 armor in a game. means he would be able to reflect just as much, while other fighters or tanks would get up to 250 to 300 armor.

thats a difference of more than 230% armor. while health differences between champions are much smaller and up to about 130% health compared to the average.

the gap in power is so large, that this version of the item would again have to be balanced around malphite, which would make it shit on everybody else.

DarkRitual2 votes

Depends if it's pre- or post- mitigaiton. If it's pre-, then yeah he'lll deal a lot more. If it's post-, then the math gets muddles since he'll be receiving less, and thus reflecting less.

If it would be made pre-mitigation, reflecting 25 or 30% would be a better amount. To deal Malph's FULL Bonus Armor at 30% deflection, he would need to take like 2000 from a single ability/attack at 700 armor. These numbers seem a lot more reasonable.

Marshbouy1 votes

I have said this repeatedly and i will say it again. An item that damages enemies for attacking you will not become meta Riot will not allow it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNE90GH4hEw this is not a healthy mechanic, and never will be.

Best princess EU2 votes

make the reflection damage only applied if the target is within 400 range of you.

Marshbouy2 votes

that would change nothing. You would have to be an expert at kiting to keep someone 400 units away from you

Best princess EU1 votes

are you dumb? 400 units was an example, i don't know what number would it be.

Marshbouy1 votes

Ok. then even if it was outside of 200 units then melee auto attackers would get shit on by the item. How do you counter the fact that Yasuo Tryndamere Graves(graves only partially applies) etc are now close to unviable?

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

but its a healthy mechanic to have 1k+ damage crits and lifesteal 200 hp per auto without using any resocurs 2.5 times a second right? maybe adcs should at least consider target prioritiazation. and not blind spray and pray on people.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

No way to play against it if it's good? Why do you think AD casters became a thing years ago? Also try having a mage on your team.

Ralanr1 votes

My only problem with thornmail (and I'm a tank main) is that if it's too strong it flat out removes a weakness for tanks (sustained damage) unless it's against mages. And sustained mages are difficult to balance.

Yeah marksmen have been abusing items that remove their weakness, but does that really mean we should make other classes be able to remove their weakness through items the same way that the item scaling class does?

hhaavviikk1 votes

thornmail shouldn't be strong, it punishes you for doing your job, auto attacking, make thornmail too strong and juggernauts will have a field day as ADC can't touch them without dying

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