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@Riot, before you make pass on AP items, I think it is important to understand why they are so bad

Zero Skill Tank··75 votes·3,573 views

Riot said they are preparing a pass over AP items, because they are so underwhelming, and that they welcome suggestions, but I think that there is much more important issue to discuss.

Please compare how many different stats are there available to put on item for AP champions vs AD champions:

AD - > AS, AD, LS, Crit, Lethality, %Pen, CDR AP - > AP, CDR

I know what boards want to say now: 'But there is also mana and penetration to put on AP items, too!' -

No, there isn't. See, armor is much more abundand than MR (due to oversaturation in armor penetration), so that more Magic penetration items can't really be added - indeed, when MR aura was removed, even 3 items we have now were too much and led to giving more free MR to all ranged champions. Adding more impactful magic pen item would make mages unstopable, and that's not the goal.

Same applies to mana - most AP champions get a single mana item, some of them can get two. The system already inludes all mana items we could ever want - indeed, with a little good will even ROA and Archangels could (and should) be merged into single item, they are vrtually identical (scaling over time + mana + AP + hp/shield).

The TL;DR here is that item system in it's very core doesn't offer enough for AP champions - not only AP items are in a state that is far from satisfactory, it's hard to even imagine an item that would change that - we don't need 13th AP/CDR item, CDR is capped and AP stacking doesn't scale that well.

So, my proposals focus on introducing new options for AP champions

  • AP upgrade for Kircheis Shard

    • there are many AP champions who would enjoy AP/AS item, but their kit doesn't support DPS playstyle enough to invest in pure DPS item like Tooth. Energized attack would give them a middle ground between burst and dps style. Potential users: Azir Diana Draven Evelynn Fizz Kassadin Kayle Kennen KogMaw Mordekaiser Orianna Teemo TwistedFate

  • Empowered recall item

    • mages are the only class that needs to recall lategame, that's a fact (a bit streched, but still). While this is OK as a weakness, allowing them to build to partially mittigate it would be a cool option. Potential users: every mana reliant mage.

  • tower-damage as a statistic

    • right now 50% AP is converted into tower damage. Making that number item dependant (i.e. it would start at 40%, but could go up to 70% if build for) would be interesting and would introduce new element that AP item system lacks.

  • new iteration of mejai's

    • Mejai's is cool in that it's snowball passive is something that AP system has but AD system doesn't (anymore). It has, however, absurd abuse cases on super-safe champions like Janna, Soraka and Lux - what leads to it being nerfed until it's only viable on those, and barely at that. I think that it could be made into cool, viable item if those cases were gated I.e. stacks could be only granted if you were close to dying enemy (partial gating from super-safe champions) and stacks increase your damage (as oposed to AP, completely gating from Janna and Soraka).

118 Comments

DrCyanide46 votes

I wonder if there's room to remove "the" mana item from a mages build.

Like, what if instead of having to start item 3165 item 3027 item 3070 (item 3174 in years past) to get a large pool of mana/mana regen, then moving on to your core stuff, most of the AP items gave a little bit of mana but not a ton.

Right now the prevailing strategy is "buy your way out of your mana problems, then never think about them again." Shouldn't choosing to sacrifice a mana item give you some advantage over the person who went a mana item first? If there were core mana items, but then more items gave a little bit of mana, it would encourage builds that are stronger if you can manage your mana better.

Everyone knows the breakdown, but it's still worth bringing up when finding out what works for AD, and hopefully what could change for AP.

item 3134 builds into item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 = 1 interactive passive, 2 active items item 3136 builds into item 3151 = Deal DoT passive. More DoT if target is CCed

Take away lesson: More options is good. Interactive passives or actives also make for more interesting items. "Interactive" isn't playing the same way you always would and getting different results (which is what happens with Liandries right now). Being forced into buying another item to get the most of it item 3116 isn't exactly interactive either.

item 3155 feels smart to buy, has a passive that saves your life. item 3191 feels like a chore to buy, with no visual indication when it saves your life.

Take away lesson: Similar to auras, some sort of big, obvious visual saying "Hey, I'm doing something!" can go a long way in making an item feel better.

item 3031 amplifies the damage that ADCs get from other crit items, gives AD and Crit Chance, and is an early core item item 3089 amplifies the damage APCs get from other items, gives only AP, and is almost never built because of its cost

Take away lesson: One trick pony items have to be pretty broken to win out over their generalist brethren. Even adding one other stat can make a difference (being a bit cheaper helps too)

item 3035 builds into item 3036 item 3033 , letting you chose which upgrade works best in that game item 3135 builds into nothing

Take away lesson: "Condition X exists, I should build Y" is less interesting than "Condition X exists, and Condition Y exists, I should consider Option Z".

I'm sure there are more (I feel like the Zeal upgrades have something to share), but this is a starting point for what could change.

Also... Some items are just a little too specialized for a set of 4 champions or a very particular use case. item 3053 item 3091 item 3124 item 3115 item 3030 item 3152 item 3056 Maybe some of these could be re-evaluated to see what the ideal fantasy of that item is, and if that would work out better as a new Rune instead of an item.

CasterGilgamesh5 votes

but isnt it kinda unfair to make only aps mana conservation matter when all the other classes dont have much mana problems but i could be wrong but thats just how is feel

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Any form of "gating" on spells whether it be a high CD, high mana cost or otherwise, is there in order to allow them to put more power into the spell and make it feel good to use.

An Undead brat5 votes

The thing is, do AD champions' spells feel weaker than AP champions' spells nowadays?

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

If we're talking ADC's yes their spells are much weaker.

If we're talking Assassins yes their spells are weaker too individually. But ofcourse no Assassin just pokes you they all in and combo autoattacks into the mix too.

And if we're talking bruisers yes their spells are typically stronger but on higher cooldowns or with the tag of being melee and short ranged.

So yes, they do feel weaker all things considered. But basic attacks are a thing that scales on AD so...

An Undead brat6 votes

Okay, you did not understand, do they feel THAT weaker for the downsides compared to the strengths and downsides of AP? I mean, it's really relevant, you want compare Ashe's ult to Brand's Q, but I feel AD champion's power budget is alot overstreched thanks to Riot wanting their spells to do something besides their AAs.

Enjutsu2 votes

I actualy disagree with the mana suggestion, because that's how support itemisation is(enchanters more so). Currently i like goingitem 2301 item 3174 item 3504 and that's it, i don't really need more mana, i can manage. If i went coin path i would need even less mana, also im testing something else a bit and i suspect for my mana problems i might actually need only item 2301 item 3174. And once i have all my core support items i can't get more support items without wasting stats. There's also the issue with support items that they also have cdr too.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

I think that mana regen was chosen for enchanters to allow them a constant upkeep of their enchanting abilities.

In contrast the deviation from mana regen to flat mana on mage centric items is there to allow more usage of spells but still have a limit in some form.

Mana regen helps to ensure you never run out of mana while flat mana increases your max spell usage while not offering infinite mana.

Ofcourse item 3802 + item 3165 kind of break that mold due to their high mana returns on level/kill, but that was the intent I believe for the change.

Thus, I'm all for AP itemization being more mana centric.

Penns22 votes

i just want a counter to shields and item 3155 pls ty

TiltThenWin16 votes

either seekers needs more stats or they need to dumb down hexdrinker, unbelievable OP option for a first back ad midlaner against ap you no longer die, so balanced oh btw heres some dmg to go along with that

NineTailedMystic16 votes

I would like a more varied core itemization. For starters, opening up Archangel's Staff to more Mages than just Cass, Ryze, and Anivia would be a great start. Tweaking RoA to be a bit less of a big stat stick while making it a more welcoming purchase. Introducing one or two of the Black Market Brawlers Morello replacements, particularly Pox Arcana or Rite of Ruin, to make it "not Morello" every game.

Opening up GLP to more Mages and removing Protobelt would be welcome.

I'd also like some way to make Void Staff interesting. I truly appreciate how it's still total MR pen vs Bonus MR pen, but it's still just so boring.

As for item 3003 in particular, I adore this item. It's just not a good item outside of a very small niche of APs, and I have two suggestions for it. Either let it stack automatically over time. Or make it so that every 8 seconds, it builds up 8 stacks (16 for Archangel's) and stacks indefinitely. When you cast a spell, all stacks are consumed and are added to your Tear progress. That allows Mages who have longer cooldowns to reliably stack the item and a reasonable pace. (On top of the normal stacking)

SociopathFriend3 votes

Was gonna suggest something similar and then I saw your comment, where's that sticker option, finally a reason to use it. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I do think it it would need testing, the people who hold spells for a while shouldn't outpace the spammers like Cass and Ryze for example, the change is to help them; not overtake the current users.

The Archive14 votes

Somehow, I don't think you intended for Draven to be on your list of champions that would like an AP/AS item.

Ez dePaz6 votes

I think he can build it beacuse, Draven.

The Archive2 votes

You've got me there.

morris14 votes

This explains it.

It Hertz When IP11 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1NoBdtZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:37:19.236+0000)

  • tower-damage as a statistic
    • right now 50% AP is converted into tower damage. Making that number item dependant (i.e. it would start at 40%, but could go up to 70% if build for) would be interesting and would introduce new element that AP item system lacks.

Ziggs is gonna have a field day with this.

CasterGilgamesh5 votes

taking towers is his nitch as a mage anyway might as well go ham (towers already die fast anyway so its not a very big strength)

WinTheWarOnPants11 votes

AP itemization is fine power wise with the exception of item 3165 item 3146 and item 3027. Not that these items should be nerfed, but their power should be distributed better. The real reason AP struggles is because of how much AD itemization outclasses it(due to power-creep). Somthing else to mention is that Having more armor items overall than MR is irrelevant because while it gives you more options you can only buy 6 items(much less that the total of both def stat items). But if you look at it as far as armor vs pen and MR vs magic pen, you start to see the problem. If you take 2 insane full armor and full MR builds(that no one ever builds) you will get item 3143 item 3075 item 3742 item 3068 item 3800 item 3047 = 315 armor(it could be 375 if put frozen heart instead, but no one buys it) item 3001 item 3194 item 3190 item 3065 item 3512 item 3111 = 305 magic resist Then you tank armor pen and magic pen builds item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3036 (full build) +boots = 54 pen + 24% shred + 35% bonus armor pen item 3020 item 3135 item 3151 = 30 pen + 35% magic pen If you take the pen and put it in relation to possible armor you get Armor pen = 17% of armor magic pen = 10% of MR If you add % pen(just including the flat% pen) you get armor pen = 41% magic pen = 40% But this does NOT include the 35% bonus armor pen which is complicated to add so i'll let someone else calculate it. The point still stands that even without one of the best armor pen items, Armor pen STILL beats MR when it comes to bypassing def. This is also ignoring the fact that physical dmg is also inherently stronger than magic dmg at dealing with defense because it is sustain vs burst.

another thing that sets AD above AP is the availability of both general tanky dmg items in the form of % dmg reduction item 3812 item 3046 MR item 3156 item 3091 item 3139 health item 3053 item 3022 item 3071 item 3748 item 3814 and armor item 3026 item 3025

compared to AP(who also suffer much more for building non AP times(due to lack of sustain)) MR item 3102 item 3174(it's a sup items so i probably shouldn't include it, but w/e) Health item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3152 or item 3030(you can only get one) and armor item 3157

As you can see AP loses out in every category when it comes to defense and even completely lacks the % dmg reduction that AD items have.

Yasuicide7 votes

[deleted]

50000000000000004 votes

that doesn't solve the diversity issue. That would just end up being a straight buff across the board.

Nhifu3 votes

Buff liandries again

La Bello3 votes

Mejais should just be made unique and evolve after a certain stacks so you dont lose stacks anymore if you can reach 25 so it becomes a more feasible option for people very convinced in their own skill and ability to snowball.

I think Nashors item 3115 and Lichbane item 3100 should be reworked and ultimately fused into a TriForce Esque item because usually the same group of champions want to get them and they're both designed around sustained magic damage .

Votable Jester4 votes

item 3100 is the more bursty version though, not all the same champions want to use both of those.

Basically any burst mage could make use of Lich Bane if they wanted, but almost none of them would want to use Nashor's.

La Bello2 votes

Riot doesnt want Lich bane to be a item for burst

thats why they lowered its AP scaling long ago and back ended more damage into the base AD,

Historically we've run into a lot of problems with champions who use Lich Bane because of its high-power AP burst, so we're taking a look at the item itself. Lich Bane is designed to be a damage supplement for AP champs that incorporate basic attacks into their spell rotations, unlike Deathfire Grasp which is for champions who want to optimize their burst damage. This adjustment lets us take a look at champions who traditionally depend on Lich Bane for their damage output. We've given a bit of power back to

We're lowering Lich Bane's damage. EMPOWERED DAMAGE: Deals 50 (+0.75 ability power) magic damage ⇒ Deals 75% Base AD (+0.5 Ability Power) magic damage

https://lol.gamepedia.com/Lich_Bane

Kaeblen3 votes

remember when item 3057 was an AP item?

PrinceOfStorms3 votes

Alternatively, instead of doing an AP item pass, do an AD item pass where the goal is making AD items as bad as AP items are. Instead of buffing AP, nerf the shit out of AD.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1NoBdtZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:37:19.236+0000)

  • Empowered recall item
    • mages are the only class that needs to recall lategame, that's a fact (a bit streched, but still). While this is OK as a weakness, allowing them to build to partially mittigate it would be a cool option. Potential users: every mana reliant mage.

You may need to reword that, because I'm hella sure supports need to as well item 2049

Spoofghoul3 votes

item 3151 shouldn't have the % burn

instead it should apply a bleed

Like a new passive: Arcane wounds Target bleeds for 60 + 30% AP over 2 seconds and leaves a trail of blood, whilst bleeding the target is revealed Allies following the trail gain bonus movement item 2138 style

Would be useful for ap assassin

Winterkill3 votes

They were told all of this last year when they did the mage update. The Developers didn't listen to anyone one bit and I actually think they nerfed them even more with the tank update. Most people are under the impression that ADC and Tanks are too strong. I don't think they are as bad as people think. The problem is Riot didn't introduce or actually work on AP itemization and, if I remember from the tank update, they raised MR and health on tank items. When they did both the Tank and ADC updates, Riot included complete overhauls of items, mechanics, and introduced new items that actually matter. What did the team do to AP itemization that made it better? Offer more CDR on items? That really helped, didn't it?

Champions that utilize auto attacks or AP bruisers are still suffering and not that great. They have hardly anything in their arsenal to deal with tank champions now and the amount of damage and survivability ADC have now. I mean really look at ADC and Tank itemization and see how different their itemization is. Tanks and ADC all have items with tons more useful actives, mechanics that save them from death so they can stay alive long enough to kill enemies, and decisions to pick the right item for specific uses. AP champions have a belt that lunges they forward and shoots out missiles. AP champions have a freeze gun that shoots out ice spikes. GREAT JOB THERE.

What Riot needs to do is:

  1. GIve magic pen more options like ADC have. I mean if AP champions had more decision making in their items it would make them more interesting to play and feel great.
  2. More unique actives that aren't a belt shooting out rockets and a freeze gun shooting out icicles. I also think Liandrys Torment should get an actual active that does more damage to health stacking champions.
  3. Lower the cost of Rabbadons, increase the amount of AP on it, or add some new mechanic to it. Seriously. Rabbadons costs too much for the price of not really providing anything.
  4. More MR/Armor items that have AP attached to it. Look at ADC who have more than 3 items with armor/MR attached to it with attack damage. I mean they even get a dumb cleanse item that protects them from CC. What do mages get? A belt that lunges them forward and shoots missiles out. An ice gun that shoots icicles out. Enough said.
  5. Bruiser AP champions need more options and a ton of work.
Moonfall Saber3 votes

How about an aemor/AP item that doesn't make you useless for 2 seconds.

Kaeblen3 votes

#Suggested AP item changes:

item 1052 --> 20AP (unchanged) item 3108 --> 30 AP, 10% Magic Penn (no CDR) All items building from Fiendish Codex would have their stats changed to reflect this change. Some items will have build path altered, using Amplifying Tome + $ instead. item 3802 --> 25AP, 250mana, Unique Passive: leveling up restores 15% missing mana over 3 seconds item 3136 --> 30AP, 200hp, Unique Passive: each time your champion deals magic damage to an enemy champion, minon or monster, gain vision of that target for 0.75 seconds. -100 combine cost. total cost = 1400 item 3057 --> 20 AP, 250 mana, Unique Passive: as us build path changed to Amplifying Tome + Saphire Crystal + 275. (total cost unchanged at 1050) This change is both a nerf to AD champions who use the item (since they have to buy AP) and a buff to AP auto attack users. bonus AP (and lack of cdr) from this item carries over to upgraded items as well. http://i.imgur.com/d7PcZLx.png / http://i.imgur.com/GMfSI7a.png --> 600 gold.

item 3026 : build path altered. now grants Adaptive +40AD / +60 AP, adding to whichever stat is higher, before applying other adaptive stats.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/e/e1/Puppeteer_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20150707235517 : 50AP, 300hp 10% CDR, builds from item 3136 + item 3067 Unique Passive: dealing damage to enemy champions grants vision and marks champions with a string for 4.5 seconds. The string (and vision) are lost if they move more than 1000 units away. Unique Active: Pulls all marked champions up to 250 units toward you. 60 second cooldown.

item 3165 : 70 AP, 300 mana, 20 magic penetration. Unique Passive: grants 20% maximum mana over 3 seconds, on kill or assist.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a5/Pox_Arcana_item.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/64?cb=20170218023031 : 85AP, 300mana. build path item 3802 + item 1026 + $?$.

Unique Passive – POX: Applies a stack of Pox for 7 seconds whenever you deal ability damage, stacking up to 5 times. Unique Active – DISEASE HARVEST: Inflicts Grievous Wounds, and Deals 50 magic damage plus 10 (+5% AP) per stack of Pox (maximum of 200 (+25% AP)) to all nearby enemies affected by Pox, and restores 5% of your maximum mana for every Pox stack harvested. 60 second cooldown.

item 3151 : +85 AP, 200hp 20% magic penetration? Build Path item 3136 + item 3108 + item 1052 . Unique Passive: spells burn enemy champions for 2% of their current health per second. If you have vision of the target, this damage is increased to 2% of their maximum health per second.

item 3135: 80AP, 20% magic penetration. 30 flat magic penetration. build path changed: item 3108 +item 3108 +item 1052 . Unique Passive: after being out of combat for 10 seconds, gain a buff granting 100 flat magic penetration for ~2 seconds after entering combat. 60 second cooldown.

item 3030 /item 3152 : one of these items should have its build path changed. only 1 of the 2 should grant hp. I suggest item 3030 be built from item 3145 + item 3802

koshkyra2 votes

Problem with ap itemization is that every mage has to buy item 3802 or run oom after two rotations but it only builds into item 3165 making itemization less open

Starcraft243ver2 votes

Tom, 16, thinks he can teach a professional team how they should balance their game.

Thanks Tom.

I Main Swain2 votes

honestly aside from the fact that ap itemization needs to be much more diverse than it is, i really disagree with most everything on here. mana for example has crappy itemization atm for mages. youre essentially required to get morello, which either doesnt give you much if youre behind or gives you a seemingly endless mana pool if youre ahead. there are a few other mage items that give either raw mana or regen as a stat but almost theyre all either straight up bad or require you to take damage in order to regain mana.

as far as magic pen goes, i think we could stand to get one more item that gives a little bit of flat magic pen back, but thats all.

still trying to figure out why draven is in that list of ap champs

your item ideas i personally dont think would work well balance wise. i think the empowered backing potentially could be alright but it could just as easily be too good imo. tower damage i would definitely say no on, its already ridiculous that i can deal as much damage late game to turrets as i can, and besides imo ap champs dont need to be able to deal a whole bunch of damage to turrets. i think they do need to rework mejais but i dont think that specifically would work but honestly idk what would work at all for an item of that nature.

basically i agree on your primary point, but on the rest i am of a differing opinion

xelaker2 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1NoBdtZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:37:19.236+0000)

So, my proposals focus on introducing new options for AP champions

  • Empowered recall item
    • mages are the only class that needs to recall lategame, that's a fact (a bit streched, but still). While this is OK as a weakness, allowing them to build to partially mittigate it would be a cool option. Potential users: every mana reliant mage.
  • tower-damage as a statistic
    • right now 50% AP is converted into tower damage. Making that number item dependant (i.e. it would start at 40%, but could go up to 70% if build for) would be interesting and would introduce new element that AP item system lacks.
  • new iteration of mejai's
    • Mejai's is cool in that it's snowball passive is something that AP system has but AD system doesn't (anymore). It has, however, absurd abuse cases on super-safe champions like Janna, Soraka and Lux - what leads to it being nerfed until it's only viable on those, and barely at that. I think that it could be made into cool, viable item if those cases were gated I.e. stacks could be only granted if you were close to dying enemy (partial gating from super-safe champions) and stacks increase your damage (as oposed to AP, completely gating from Janna and Soraka).

By late game you should have a decent enough amount of regen from items and drag (and a little bit of smart conservation)

towers are shitty enough and the game needs less snowballing...why don't we just make urf the default mode? fixes all your issues.

Kaeblen1 votes

The real point is that Mages need options. I don't really like the tower damage suggestion either, but the fact that item 3191 and item 3802 only have 1 item each that they can build into is pretty bad.

the fact that item 1038 feels like a good buy, but item 1058 feels like a bad one, is a problem. (ok, that was two points, not just one, but whatever.)

xelaker1 votes

I agree, mages need more stuffs, but there's only so many items you can make with the given stats in the game. and either way there's always gonna be an optimal build for a huge majority of the mages.

Shablagoo1 votes

At this point it looks like your trying to make it look like there is a problem that isn't there, all they need to do is make the build path for some mage items more practical. You know when ppl started complaining about ap itemization more after duskblade. Let me just tell you that duskblade is just riots roundabout way of saying that the assassin rework failed by removing instaburst but giving it to an item. Once the build paths are fix ap itemization will be fine.

NineTailedMystic14 votes

AP Itemization is bland and uninteresting. There's no diversity in the items.

Shablagoo1 votes

That doesnt make it bad

NineTailedMystic9 votes

It certainly feels bad.

Shablagoo1 votes

Because your just bored of playing mages it has nothing to do with the items.

NineTailedMystic6 votes

Like I'd ever get tired of playing Mages lol. I can't play AD champs for the life of me.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

If stacks increased your damage output instead of your AP, then Mejai's Soulstealer would just become an item for everyone. Physical assassins, divers, juggernauts and marksmen would all buy an item like this.

Now, if you are specifically intending for Mejai's Soulstealer to increase magic damage by a percentage, that would be an issue. AP ratios are how Riot is able to specifically tune each mage's damage from items based on how much base damage they are able to deal. A % damage amp is ridiculous, that's one of the reasons it had to be removed from Abyssal Scepter and given to a tank who has to stand near the mage instead of just giving it to all mages themselves.

An empowered recall item for mages is very interesting (though I would debate whether mages are the only class that is forced to recall, I would argue that Sighstone also demands supports return to base during the late game quite often).

Perhaps a different idea would be like a mage's version of Warmog's Armor. An item that gives you % mana regeneration only out of combat that is quite expensive and offers little offense. Maybe something like -

Archmage's Spellbook (Lost Chapter + Glacial Shroud + 1200 gold - Total 3000 gold) 40 Ability Power 40 Armor +10% Cooldown Reduction +800 Mana

Unique Passive - Archmage's Intuition - If you have at least 2750 maximum mana, recover 5% of your maximum mana each second when you have not cast a spell or received damage from a champion within the last 8 seconds.

Champion Skin1 votes

Archmage's Spellbook (Lost Chapter + Glacial Shroud + 1200 gold - Total 3000 gold) 40 Ability Power 40 Armor +10% Cooldown Reduction +800 Mana

Unique Passive - Archmage's Intuition - If you have at least 2750 maximum mana, recover 5% of your maximum mana each second when you have not cast a spell or received damage from a champion within the last 8 seconds.

There are a couple of likely problems with this

2750 mana is probably too much To trigger that the champion would need to buy 1214-1970 mana (highest - lowest mana at level 18)

And if the champion has 2750 mana they probably won't need that much mana regen (most champions don't have a need to use that gold on mana since they gain more mana and mana regen with levels)

And if the champion really needed that much mana wouldn't item 3165 be better with it restoring 20% of max mana on kill/assist so it would actually give you mana in combat instead of just making it so that you entered every fight with 100% mana

The Yetii Rider1 votes

To your last point: clearly not since the OP is discussing an Empowered Recall ability specifically to help mages recover mana after fights in the late game.

As to the first point, the item itself grants 800 mana. So that's only 414-1170, you can get that from an item 3003 easily.

Champion Skin1 votes

It is also health.... since mages don't usually have any good way of recovering from getting hit with poke or chip damage other then health regen which is usually quite low

And mages usually don't build that much durability so having less than 100% HP can be quite dangerous if the enemy team has powerful burst or catch abilities

There is a huge difference between health and mana.... you pretty much always want to be at full health but with mana you only need enough mana to use your abilities for however long the fight will last and having more mana than that doesn't really do anything other then give the potential to keep fighting longer (fights don't usually last that long? So it isn't that useful)

PopcornBunni1 votes

Honestly Utility mages feel pigeonholed. They have poor AP ratios to their base damages, so they're essentially forced into buying item 3135 item 3020 item 3151, and the three item slots left often have items with the same passive competing.

item 3027 wants build for the extra staying power it gives item 3001 wants built for the bonus damage it provides bypassing AP item 3030 wants built for the massive utility spell it grants

But all three have the same passive, and Frost Bolt is the only utility item available for casters without going into meme territory (item 3092 item 3060 item 3056 item 3091 item 3512 ). They're left with then wasting money on non-optimal AP on any combination of item 3116 item 3285 item 3157

It gets even worse for characters like Anivia that build item 3040, limiting their item diversity game-to-game to all of a single item slot.

There needs to be more utility options for mages that can't afford building 600 AP just to do more than the base damage of their spells.

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3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
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UPVOTE FOR URF
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Yes plz.
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3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
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votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
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