That EXPERIMENTAL PBE J4 buff!! ??

ValyrianBlade·Feb 24, 2016·46 votes·14,183 views

Okay, first off, the buff: Cataclysm (R) Mana cost reduced to 100 at all ranks from 100/125/150 Now does damage to all enemies in the circle instead of only target. Now plants a flag he can Q to in the middle of the circle.

These have been touted as experimental (so not like the guaranteed to go to live like regular PBE changes). That said, since I don't have a PBE account, I have some questions!

Does this mean J4 can have 2 flags out at once, if he uses E either before or after ulting, or will one flag remove the other? If so, will he get double the bonuses from having 2 flags, or will they not stack? If not, would you consider instead letting his ult reset his E (flag) cooldown to 0 (or even 0.5 or 1.0 seconds)?

Regardless of what happens, I'm glad they're taking a look. Really excited to see a fresh J4!

90 Comments

Jaygo41Feb 25, 201612 votes

E doesn't go on cooldown R flag doesn't supply AS

pretty sure i interpreted moobeat's tweets correctly

RiotRiot SotereFeb 25, 201633 votes

That's correct. Also yes on the two flags at once.

QuephaFeb 25, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pNx4PAL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-25T02:36:33.779+0000)

That's correct. Also yes on the two flags at once.

I don't see the point. Jarvan doesn't need to Q into his ult, he's already there. This seems like a roundabout way to just make him deal more damage.

SH AzykanFeb 25, 20163 votes

^this

Why add a flag he can drag to inside when his ult already puts him there

I just expect this to create a mess of problems with trying to flag and drag out of it when using the ult to keep someone like Nasus/Olaf from running into your backline that you dont want to stay with either

Troll for TrumpFeb 25, 20162 votes

Here's what'll probably happen. You ult an enemy under your turret and flash. You turn around and q. But because of the way that QE interacts, the Q will still take you to the flag, even if it's a considerable amount of degrees off. While it helps you to escape, it might be a problem

BladeSteelFeb 25, 20161 votes

You don't even have to flash though

Troll for TrumpFeb 25, 20162 votes

But won't your q get stuck on the flag in the ring?

BladeSteelFeb 25, 20161 votes

well if you ult them under your turret and q to the flag in your ring, you'll knock them up...you don't need to flash out then back in...

Vistha KaiFeb 25, 20161 votes

That'd work, but many years ago, before the knockup hitbox was lowered.

ProzzakFeb 25, 20162 votes

Have it interact like leona's E and go to the furthest flag hit.

ChaoticPineconeFeb 25, 20164 votes

It already does. At least on Urf it did.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 25, 20166 votes

The extra knock-up in the Ult is a welcome buff. Ult-Q or E-Q into Ult.

WadeWilson1337Feb 25, 20161 votes

He desperately needs buffs, regardless of what they are.

QuephaFeb 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

He desperately needs buffs, regardless of what they are.

If he needs more damage out of his ult, just make it deal more damage, don't drop in a flag randomly that gets in the way of a Q Jarvan might want to use. If Jarvan wants to go somewhere and knock someone up he can place his own flag in the right position.

What is the point of the flag? Do Jarvans occasionally want to Q out of a cataclysm and then Q back into it? that seems like a bizarre use case and you'd need to build a full 45% cdr to even get your Q cooldown low enough to use twice during the duration...

Sad TyrantFeb 25, 20162 votes

That's why it's Experimental

Sr4nk CrayFeb 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't see the point. Jarvan doesn't need to Q into his ult, he's already there. This seems like a roundabout way to just make him deal more damage.

Maybe its a way to catch someone who flashes out. ult the team adc flashes out you eq the adc and mayb the team while they are still trapped in the cataclysm. Who knows

QuephaFeb 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe its a way to catch someone who flashes out. ult the team adc flashes out you eq the adc and mayb the team while they are still trapped in the cataclysm. Who knows

Your Q will not be up again before cataclysm is over

Sr4nk CrayFeb 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Your Q will not be up again before cataclysm is over

You don't always need to q into the ult.

QuephaFeb 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You don't always need to q into the ult.

You never need to Q into the ult, you start out inside of it. Somehow you need to get out of the ult for Q'ing into the ult to be useful. So i guess you blow your flash to auto someone outside of the pit and then Q back into it?

RottedApplesFeb 25, 20162 votes

i think it's more to help him if he gets knocked out of the ult or something

A Basic IslandFeb 25, 20161 votes

what happens when his Q happens to hit both flags at once?

ZorasamaFeb 25, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pNx4PAL,comment-id=000000000003,timestamp=2016-02-25T05:15:36.289+0000)

what happens when his Q happens to hit both flags at once?

He clone himself and reach both flags.

Bodkins OddsFeb 25, 20163 votes

Why put a flag inside his ult if it doesn't give AS? He can't really Q to it, because he's already inside his ult.

BladeSteelFeb 25, 20163 votes

he can, and it will knock up everyone inside of it

SkiasFeb 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pNx4PAL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-25T02:36:33.779+0000)

That's correct. Also yes on the two flags at once.

That seems like wayyyy too much for a champion that was generally a top pick jungle for such a long period of time. He's barely been toned down, that is a crazy amount of power to add back.

WadeWilson1337Feb 25, 20166 votes

45% winrate, 2% pick rate, LOWEST performance ranking on champion.gg. Just because he was good at one point doesnt mean he should be garbage tier. NO CHAMPION should be like that. Look at Gragas, hes strong but not overbearing. Hes used alot in competitive and a good pick in High Elo, but no one is terrified of him to the point of banning him in ranked. If hes too strong theyll tone the numbers down so hes at a 50% winrate so people wont whine too much.

MidOceanFeb 26, 20161 votes

I can't agree more

ValyrianBladeFeb 25, 20161 votes

When warrior was strong at the start of S5 J4 was the second best jungler after WW because his E gave him +10/20/30/40/50 armor, meaning he could survive the new jungle pretty easily and do good ganks still.

So his armor bonus on his E was removed. That's 50 armor (which is huge) gone at levels 13-18. That's 10 armor gone at level 1. He was "compensated" +3 base armor a bit later in to S5, but still it's nothing compared to what he lost.

J4 wasn't even god-tier prior to the crazy S5 jungle, he was just a solid tier 1/2 pick that was consistent and hence useful in the LCS. In solo queue he was really no problem. So he was overnerfed and when -warrior got nerfed -other enchants buffed -jungle got easier so other junglers could clear it more easily and have better ganks -defensive stats got weaker -league of mobility continued so more champions can easily dodge his E-Q

he has become pretty much the worst jungler in the game (and his top lane suffered a lot too).

The second flag doesn't even give stats. All I can see is that

he'll be properly rewarded for landing a good ult WITHOUT using E-Q to engage, as he'll be able to immediately Q to that E
he'll be able to punish people stuck in his ult when he gets his Q CD back faster than his E CD since he'll now have a flag
his flag-drag combo will be easier to hit since he can position with 2 flags if he ults

That seems great to me. And it might not happen because it's only an experimental change.

devdev463Feb 26, 20161 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm PRETTY sure the armor from his e only went up to 20 at max rank, no?

ValyrianBladeFeb 29, 20161 votes

I was fairly confident it was 50, but looking through patch history there were no changes to the values since 1.0.0.120 where it maxed at 22.

So not as bad of a nerf as I thought, but still very noticeable throughout the game (that 10 [or 8] armor at level 1 makes a huge difference in first clear and ganking).

sir d wreckFeb 25, 20163 votes

Two flags, one Jarvan!

Sad TyrantFeb 25, 20163 votes

No, 3 flags at 40% CDR

Sahn UzalFeb 25, 20161 votes

Could you give is some of the thoughts behind the changes to Renekton? -- I can see the E change is a buff, and a pretty cool one as far as I can see :3 But I don't know what to think about the changes to his R.. It's a buff to his early game but a nerf to his late game. (Not that 50hp is that much lategame :p) Also, Renektons R already gives bonus range on AA's, right? does this mean he gets 75 bonus range instead of 50? -- I'm pretty curious why you decided to change Renekton and what your thoughts behind the changes are, what are the changes supposed to achieve. summoner 31

RiotRiot SotereFeb 25, 20163 votes

Wasn't my change so might not be 100% accurate but the R changes are overall a significantly positive change for him. Early stats mean more, generally speaking. The previous scaling was non-linear and kind of funky so it creates a few HP off the top end.

He's been underperforming for awhile. In particular, tanks survive against him and then outscale him pretty rapidly. Believe the goals were to pick him up a notch and give him new ways to think about his fury generation and use. The developer/Scar/Pwyff will give more context in the patch notes. :)

ExecutorDillFeb 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pNx4PAL,comment-id=00000000000a0000,timestamp=2016-02-25T09:02:15.762+0000)

Wasn't my change so might not be 100% accurate but the R changes are overall a significantly positive change for him. Early stats mean more, generally speaking. The previous scaling was non-linear and kind of funky so it creates a few HP off the top end.

He's been underperforming for awhile. In particular, tanks survive against him and then outscale him pretty rapidly. Believe the goals were to pick him up a notch and give him new ways to think about his fury generation and use. The developer/Scar/Pwyff will give more context in the patch notes. :)

I really really like these J4 changes. My favourite tanks are shen followed by malphite and ramus. I like J4's playstyle but I always felt he could use a little bit more team impact and I find the change making the ult do damage to all targets is very thematic and will give him that team impact he needs. The fact that it drops a flag also is just icing on the cake. Overall I find the ult changes very thematic to him.

La BarbotteFeb 25, 20161 votes

what will happen if i Q on two flags relatively appart from each other, do i go in the nearest or the further one away

SaiannaFeb 26, 20161 votes

Hey Rioter Sotere :)

Some days ago I've asked you if you'd help ARAM players and help us find a man responsible of ARAM game mode.. I know you have lots of other stuff to do (even though I'm not sure what exactly you do behind posting on boards) so I'm not trying to be pushy.

I'm quite sure you know how it feels when you see something being totally NOT right, yet there's nothing you can do, because noone listens.. Be the person who listen to those below, be the person who helps. At least try! Maybe thanks to you someone will get the job of managing ARAM along its playerbase?

Please help us :)

Br4ndonFeb 25, 201610 votes

Looks like J4 is becoming the next Xin. Needless buffs on a champion that needs no buffs.

Jaygo41Feb 25, 201623 votes

everyone conveniently forgets that he's like the worst performing jungler right now

Br4ndonFeb 25, 201611 votes

And no ones complaining.

J4 makes it so if you want to play an immobile champion youre pretty much screwed. God forbid if he goes AD J4.

KapnStubbyFeb 25, 20163 votes

Couldnt agree more. J4 and Xin are getting buffs for no reason. Xin is perma banned for a reason atm and if these j4 changes go in its gonna happen with him as well.

Jaygo41Feb 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

And no ones complaining.

J4 makes it so if you want to play an immobile champion youre pretty much screwed. God forbid if he goes AD J4.

it's jarvan, who's EQ IS dodgeable even tho most of you people play with a goddamn trackpad or master yi, who can build sated guinsoos and full tank and mash you... take your pick

also, just pick janna against jarvan, or lulu or something

Maximum FrittataFeb 25, 20161 votes

Yeah, but his win rate top is not unreasonably low for a champ with his utility and outplay potential, and all he really needs in the jungle is a healthier clear. These are massive buffs that don't even address his weak clear.

bluebreeze52Feb 25, 20166 votes

His win rate is 45% at 2% play rate. He's pretty bad right now.

Br4ndonFeb 25, 20162 votes

Support Tahm has a 46% winrate and a 3% playrate. I guess hes in a pretty bad spot too. Support Annie has under 2% playrate with a 46% winrate. She must be a weak champion too right? Gangplank had a 50% winrate and was nerfed this patch and was maintaining a 70%+ banrate. But 50% winrate is ideal isnt it?

Winrate and playrate doesn't always give the whole story.

5050BSFeb 25, 20168 votes

IKR Pawnce is going to make challenger

StelliferousFeb 25, 20163 votes

Problems with Jarvan IV:

Plays like an assassin when he's labeled a Tank/Fighter. Secondly, is not that tanky. I liked his old flag better that gave defensive stats, and with the removal of that.... He is even less of a tank than he once was!

Mana prices on his kit that he has to combo with to be successful, means he runs oom after a few engagements.

Farming the jungle, his passive is weak. Consider buffing it to half duration for a reset vs monsters/minions. This helps with both survivability and clear time in the jungle (his biggest weakness).

His W is boring. 1) the shield amount is low impact 2) the slow isn't that needed considering he can knock up a target, trap a target, and has 2-3 gap closers with flash. Not to mention the mana cost. And the shield gaining strength with more champions hit is cool, but he is NOT a tank so why should he be around 5 people?

But the seriously annoying thing about Jarvan is that he's labeled a Tank. Either make him a tank (buff survivability/utility and nerf damage) or change him to be a Fighter with secondary Assassin so that it is accurate.

Also I don't think his ultimate is what you guys should be focusing on. It's probably the one thing in his kit, besides his Q, that doesn't need to be touched. Unless you're taking my advice and making him more of a tank than assassin, then the ultimate should have reduced AD scaling.

Jarvan is wearing a full suit of armor. Why is it his damage that everyone fears?

AllHailWestNoxusFeb 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Problems with Jarvan IV:

Plays like an assassin when he's labeled a Tank/Fighter. Secondly, is not that tanky. I liked his old flag better that gave defensive stats, and with the removal of that.... He is even less of a tank than he once was!

Mana prices on his kit that he has to combo with to be successful, means he runs oom after a few engagements.

Farming the jungle, his passive is weak. Consider buffing it to half duration for a reset vs monsters/minions. This helps with both survivability and clear time in the jungle (his biggest weakness).

His W is boring. 1) the shield amount is low impact 2) the slow isn't that needed considering he can knock up a target, trap a target, and has 2-3 gap closers with flash. Not to mention the mana cost. And the shield gaining strength with more champions hit is cool, but he is NOT a tank so why should he be around 5 people?

But the seriously annoying thing about Jarvan is that he's labeled a Tank. Either make him a tank (buff survivability/utility and nerf damage) or change him to be a Fighter with secondary Assassin so that it is accurate.

Also I don't think his ultimate is what you guys should be focusing on. It's probably the one thing in his kit, besides his Q, that doesn't need to be touched. Unless you're taking my advice and making him more of a tank than assassin, then the ultimate should have reduced AD scaling.

Jarvan is wearing a full suit of armor. Why is it his damage that everyone fears?

Keep the single target damage on his ultimate as a bonus AD ratio for solo assassin dunking. Change the AOE damage to a Bonus HP ratio for beefy team dunking. Then you have incentive to build either way depending on the situation.

RocketRelmFeb 25, 20161 votes

"This set of changes is EXPERIMENTAL."

Implying everything else on the PBE isn't? :P

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 25, 20169 votes

changes labled experimental are like highly in question for getting to live. Like abyssal scepter, the soraka changes, mandrake ward. Those are experimental changes.