Hyper Counterpick meta top (which truly does extend to all lanes) and how we got here.

HateDaddy··18 votes·10,360 views

As many people know, top lane (and this extends to both mid and not as well honestly) is a hotpot of violent match-ups currently. I hesitate to call it the “counterpick meta” because counterpicking your lane has always been the ideal approach to picking your champion. However, counterpicks right now are so disgustingly one-sided in top lane that being counterpicked usually results in a pretty nasty beat down in your lane without some serious help. Again, counterpicks have always existed - but never like this. Any top laner can attest to this, though I suspect these dynamics are happening in mid and top but with the so-called volume turned down given that these lanes tend to be ranged vs ranged, making farming a bit safer. To put it mildly, it is an unpleasant experience. You often look like you’re totally outclassed and outskilled but in reality you’re just in a match up where your champion gets ran over with little to be done about it. Then you get flamed and everyone goes home upset.

Okay, but how did we get here? People always like to offer up one solution, the tell-all if you will. But anyone with a scientific background - especially in social sciences - will tell you phenomena’s will often have several explanations with varying culpability. And that’s no different here: there are several reasons. Before we do, part of us should applaud Riot for this. They’ve done something they really haven’t had much success doing before: tons of champions are strong and viable. Really, there aren’t many top laners I can think of that are actually weak. This does contribute somewhat to the current dilemma but as you’ll see, that’s just a superficial explanation. Allow me to begin:

Damage is simply out of control.

Champions just do way too much damage. The only thing that makes you good right now is your propensity to blow shit up. If your damage isn’t high in base or strong in scaling, you are going to be weak. If you rely on war of attrition and outlasting your opponent, you can forget about it because you’ll die before you get the chance. The best thing to do in top lane is bumrush damage and blow your opponent up. Needless to say, this creates a really violent outcome that is incredibly snowbally. Now imagine you’re a champion at an advantage because of counter mechanics. Delicious. Terrible for the three guy.

But that’s not just it. You can’t scale with defense. Champions, mainly tanks, used to exist as a medium. You picked them knowing you wouldn’t scale as a duelist but you do as a teamfighter. That doesn’t exist, tanks die so fast now. There’s no use in reply picking them. Their low reward low risk playstyle doesn’t outshine the potential to snowball, because their low-risk low-reward playstyle is pretty similar to a losing countermatch up: starved, worthless, and easily ignored. Needless to say, tank itemization is bad too so you can’t build tanky to be useful when you’re behind - you have to build offense, tool and that won’t go well when you’re getting snowballed on.

I won’t waste time explaining how and why damage is out of control - we all know it’s a combination of overtuned keystones, shit tier defense keystones, shit tier defensive items, %shred and %pen overtuned, and damage being a better stat from the beginning of the game to the end. In short: it’s causing problems ñ.

Next up:

Riot has balanced up too well: they are going with the “if everything is OP nothing is OP” approach.

If you’re like me, you probably found the flaw with the above sentence right away. Certain things are so broken right now while other things are simply strong. This approach logically does not work. Riven, Akali, Renekton, etc. are on such a different playing field in solo queue and the experience of playing against them doesn’t need to be described. Then you have other things like SoS Jax, early-mid Aatrox, Klepto Kennen, etc. that aren’t far off. Then this list of champions and interactions slowly just trickles down with broken aspects that should’ve been gutted a long time ago, but instead Riot has let them be and they interact in really explosive ways. Combine this with damage, and you’ve just made yourself a nuclear bomb. And in solo queue, you already know chemical warfare exists with all that toxicity. Riot really needs to take a bunch of these interactions and strengths down quite a few pegs but it may be too far gone at this point. And this is assuming Riot thinks this is a problem right now.

Next:

Riot has intentionally made counter mechanics that contribute to this as well.

It has existed forever, but probably didn’t really make a noticeable slash until Irelia with shield busting. Riot has introduced this, %hp true damage, healing debuffs, % pen, random CC debuff capacities, etc. into kits. This is almost always in response to some sort of meta. If you recall, irelia shield busting came in the midst of shield metas. These things usually happen in response to something people complain about. It’s actually pretty knee-jerk. The juggernaut rework that gave Fiora and Garen %hp true damage came right at the height of a tank meta - and riot said they’d never make a %hp true damage champion again (regarding vayne). These have contributed to really bad match ups when you combine it with other things, but probably not as significantly. And of all the things, it’s probably the least likely to be changed because it’s just not practical. These are integral parts of these champions kits now.

Keystones....in general.

I mentioned it above a bit, but keystones just make this game unbearable. Most of the champions in this game were made prior to keystones existing so they were never made with the idea in mind that something as powerful as keystones could exist - a great example is klepto kennen top. And keystones have been the most abusive aspect of this game since their introduction. They simply give too much power. Every season, keystones haven’t just seen isolated abuse cases, they’ve defined metas. And they’ve introduced another variable into the game that riot has to account for when balancing and when designing champions, and we’ve seen some overhaul with keystones each season with not one season of keystones really being better than any other. In reality, keystones need to be deleted. Doing this wouldn’t solve any of the games problems, but it would take the edge off of a lot of the problems this game sees because they’re a latent cause to just about every aspect of this game, with far more negative than positive results.

There are other reasons why hyper counterpick top meta exists, but frankly I’ve written enough. And these are probably the most notable contributors to the problems we have. Most of these things can’t really be changed at this point, so the sad thing is that this likely isn’t changing anytime soon.

24 Comments

Moody P11 votes

damage is fine defense is just gigatrash because:

  • HP regen is a shadow of itself when it should be the main way tanks sustain (Warmogs as the only noticeable regen effect opens you to getting shit on by rampant % damage)
  • Tank items are not gold efficient or slot efficient. Tank items SHOULD be very gold efficient because they lack slot efficiency later on but for some reason this is not the case.
  • Tanks don't get to partake in the wackyfun CDR absurdity because they're obligated to rush Sun fire if they don't want their shit pushed in all day and generally their 2nd item only gives 10%. Everyone else has minimum 20% by 2 items, sometimes more.
  • You don't even need to kill the tank to snowball anymore thanks to tower plating. Just shove them in non-stop and maybe abuse them with Klepto too and you get a ton of free gold off plates. The main way tanks got an early advantage by roaming is basically inting now because they get back to lane slower than any diver or ranged top.
  • Gold generation in general is way too high right now and it means people out scale tanks through items sooner than ever. No compensation has been given because a handful of tanks manage to still be OP in pro because their design is just naturally suffocating (Sejuani).

A lot of this really only started happening because the players and Riot decided that tanks doing what they're meant to do -- stone wall a lane and soft counter aggressive picks -- was bad and that noodling is bad but the only way a tank outright wins a lane is if they're too strong, so if that becomes the new balance point for tanks then they buff the other top lane competition to that level too. This has been a recurring problem since season 4 when they first started tinkering with the idea.

Make tanks noodle again. Make tanks tanky again.

WoonStruck9 votes

Damage is not fine at all lmao.

if you actually pay attention, you'll notice that defense hasn't been nerfed that hard overall. Offense is just out of control.

They could gigabuff tank items and you'd still notice the problem of damage being out of control.

Ragnaveil6 votes

I mean, defense for tanks has been hard nerfed. Their base stats are REALLY low. Most of them have armor and mr levels of a fighter. Old rune system allowed you to itemize runes to deal with specific damage types, and most tanks would usually have 60 to maybe 70 armor or mr level 1 from that. Also D Shield use to not be so ass like it is now. I remember being able to achieve those on Maokai. Dude has 39 armor right now, and the runes only allow him to reach 51. Combine a near useless tree that should have been dedicated to them, and you get the current tank situation. That and % pen type changes.

WoonStruck5 votes

Most of tanks' 'nerfs' outside of damage and itemization are indirect.

Significant base stat buffs across the board to almost all champs.

New champions have much higher power-budget, including base stats.

Increased baseline damage throughout the entire game via runes.

Reliable CC far too prevalent on non-tanks. Remember when you needed tank picks specifically, generally, to toss some CC into your comp?

Fighters have better defensive tools than tanks, in addition to higher scaling and often lower CDs (that usually include CC).

Non-lifesteal sustain drastically nerfed, giving much less EHP on tanks via regen+resistance stacking like in earlier seasons.


As far as itemization goes, though...the items aren't "bad", they're slot inefficient though, which makes them extremely weak late game to the point of imbalance.

Reaversal1 votes

Ahahahahhahahahahahahaahhahaahahahaha, no post here, got downvoted for being a compelte fucking inept r%%%%%, ahahahahahahahahahah I'm a fucking dumbass laugh at me ahahahahahahaha

Snowbrand1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are just fine if they have enough front-loaded defense to weather burst damage. Sejuani is proof of this, and she's pretty good currently, last I knew.

An item or a rune that acts like a weaker version of Sejuani's passive would do wonders for tanks in general, but then you get the issue of Sejuani herself using said item/rune...

U mean aftershock?

Moody P5 votes

defense has been nerfed very hard over the years between health, health regen, resists/penetration buffs, % damage added in, etc

Sire Hippington2 votes

it's all a matter of how far back we go, most of the defense nerfs crept in between preseason 3(loss of old 1370hp warmongs and FoN) and S7(the 'tank update'), and while the overall damage increase happend duering that time aswell, it really picked up speed from S6 onward and thus is alot more present in peoples minds, especially for newer players.

Moody P1 votes

Almost forgot GA and banshee used to be tank items, too

FSRER6 votes

Couldn't agree more. Riot nerfed tanks for doing their jobs but what can you expect from the balancing team that decided that buffing Fiora is a good idea?

MLDzXnRRR4 votes

{quoted}

Couldn't agree more. Riot nerfed tanks for doing their jobs but what can you expect from the balancing team that decided that buffing Fiora is a good idea?

Tanks are big problem in competitive Lol. People play there 4 tanks and 1 ranged dps when they are good. It's just one of the reasons why lol esports ruin normal gameplay. Another is - ruining niche strategies, if they become somehow viable (instanerf, so they are not played in LCS anymore). Nerfing champions that are good only there - Kalista, Ryze are the main. Adding stuff to speed up the game, because best LCS strat is was to stall to 50-60 minutes, if you are behind - Baron megabuff, Rift herald.

mark60282 votes

What a stupid fuckin myth and apparently it never dies out.

Azir, ryze, kalista, irelia, akali all those "gutted because of pro play" were NEVER only a problem in pro play alone. They destroyed the game starting at diamond when people learned to play their champs properly and then only got worse the better the player became so much so that master/chally was basically unplayable whenever these champs were good.

Tanks the same shit. If you didnt play a tank you autolost the game, guess what no one wants to play a tank and rely on his team to carry him. Sounds crazy i know but outside the five people on the boards here NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY TANKS. Even when they were giga broken and u had 4 tanks per team their playrate barely reached 10% if at all.

Look at someone like irelia being good instant 15% playrate.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

What a stupid fuckin myth and apparently it never dies out.

Azir, ryze, kalista, irelia, akali all those "gutted because of pro play" were NEVER only a problem in pro play alone. They destroyed the game starting at diamond when people learned to play their champs properly and then only got worse the better the player became so much so that master/chally was basically unplayable whenever these champs were good.

Tanks the same shit. If you didnt play a tank you autolost the game, guess what no one wants to play a tank and rely on his team to carry him. Sounds crazy i know but outside the five people on the boards here NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY TANKS. Even when they were giga broken and u had 4 tanks per team their playrate barely reached 10% if at all.

Look at someone like irelia being good instant 15% playrate.

Dude, diamond + can be even ignored as a playerbase, it's a very small amount of player - 3-4 % of the ranked players, wow. That's laughable. And that's not counting the normal games and other modes only players and they are not few. I guess designers and balance team had to learn how to do their jobs better (spoiler: they didn't, see that joke of Aatrox rework that is perma broken or useless since rework) and not release potentially garbage or OP shit for select minority/majority of the players.

You are right that tanks were never popular, but maybe it's because their kits and visual were "not as cool" for the riven/yasuo/zed etc crowd.

DeathBurst1 votes

If you want waveclear+CDR, go for Iceborn Gauntlet. Or Bami into Frozen Heart, no need to go for a full Sunfire. Or take CDR from Runes.

Clone Is Friend8 votes

just revert it all back to s5. its doomed

Linna Excel4 votes

My biggest problem is that while league has had counterpicks since I started (zyra release), riot seems to be moving away from counterplay and into hard counter territory. This has to stop if riot wants to start making league better. My biggest concern is that riot said they are slowing down reworks meaning they aren't going to fundamentally fix the broken champs for awhile nor are they going to be able to get to the ones that haven't been VGUed yet.

Vlada Cut3 votes

It's like playing rock paper scissor's! Camille < Darius < Vayne < Camille Wait a minute, Vayne counters both gtfo from top lane.

The Kombinator1 votes

Yeah had an idea back the, and always got downvoted under the metro.

Give turrets at least until plates gone some sort of defensive aura. A shield, or a strong healing. That way you could at least farm under turret even against hard counter.

It would also take some pressure from jungler since you can farm, and enemy jungler can't dive you that easy.

But seriously just be good enough to beat your counter. Or switch with mid. Or switch with bot. That was also a meta for a time.

DeathBurst1 votes

First off, if you want people to engage (especially Rioters) be more concise.

Second, "hyper counterpick meta top" when most Youtubers and Streamers top are OTP, I'm not convinced.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

First off, if you want people to engage (especially Rioters) be more concise.

Second, "hyper counterpick meta top" when most Youtubers and Streamers top are OTP, I'm not convinced.

It’s plenty concise, it’s not my fault you have a short attention span

Secondly many youtubers and streamers are not OTPs, so you’re wrong about that too.

DeathBurst1 votes

It's literally two pages long. You might wanna check the definition of "concise".

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

It's literally two pages long. You might wanna check the definition of "concise".

It’s not a simplistic subject. I could’ve definitely made it much longer. You don’t like it, don’t read it. This isn’t a writing assignment, nor am I ready to argue about it because it’s really not that important to me. Have a good day.

DeathBurst1 votes

The question is not whether some are not OTP. Of course, some are not.

But if some still are (and by "some", I mean, "a lot". Sirchez, Riste, Foggged, Jaysea, etc.), and are still at the top of the ladder (all the one I just mentioned are Diamond+), it means the "hyper counterpick" is not that hyper, since they manage to climb with just one champion despite the counterpicks.

Zeyphel1 votes
  • I pick Aatrox

  • Enemy top laner chooses Jax , Kled , Riven , Fiora , or Renekton

Riot: Congratulations, you are out of the game (although you haven't even started)

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