Placements HAVE TO change next year.

Zombiephil·Jun 7, 2015·28 votes·4,015 views

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5-5 Silver 3-->Bronze 3 7-3 Bronze 5 (don't know about his last season) 9-1 Bronze 5 (no excuse for this one) 6-4 Gold 4 --> Silver 4

Me: 2-8 Last season in placements, get B1 while averaging 3-9-5 as Yi (I started ranked wayyy before I was ready). This year, 4-6 placements, Bronze 5. There have been lots of complaints about this. Next year, the "soft-reset" needs a change. I'm not saying that you should completely ignore last season. No, I don't want Bronzies getting lucky and going 10-0 and ending up in Gold or Plat, but 9-1 should never be Bronze-anything. It should be something like, if you were X, and you won 4 games, you will end up at least at X. (doesn't need to be exactly like that)

62 Comments

lDontLiftIcarryJun 7, 20153 votes

improve your mmr. I've never placed lower than maximum possible at the start of every season. Your mmr is just terrible so its gonna make it hard for you to get near your previous area every year until you start caring about it instead of LP.

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 7, 20153 votes

What order were the wins and losses? The two big things that impact it are previous rank and order of wins and losses.

For instance, if the guy who was silver 3 went 0-4, then 2-0, then lost, then 3-0, mid bronze might be an accurate spot, and if he duo'd with someone in bronze and did that it def would be, because the first 5 games you play count for the bulk of your placements because they have the largest shift in mmr.

It works similarly to The way they do the computer administered GRE now days. The first questions in the GRE push you way up or way down really fast so the test can make your questions the right difficulty. Then it starts to give you questions that move you a little less in terms of difficulty once it figures out if you're on the high end of the low end. So if someone duo ques with a lower mmr player and loses a bunch of games to start placements, the game will assum they are worse than that and throw their mmr down there. Then if they win a couple but not all back to back, the game will adjust small and the wins in the last games will be like the difference between bronze 3 or bronze 4, but the large loss streak to start put them down in bronze and the game didn't match them against silver level players after that and just saw that they could beat bronze games and should be around there.

While I agree 9-1 should never be bronze 5, I also think that is because it should push the mmr faster in the first 5 games going up and allow for bigger drops in the next 5 if that happens. I haven't seen anyone go 9-1 and not go up a division unless they were bronze 5, and that is the only rank where your mmr can keep dropping and your rank can't possibly drop (at least this season, can't remember if that was true last season). They probably were never paired in a single game with a player higher than bronze 3 in that 9-1 streak and I think that is the biggest issue. If you go 5-0 you should at least get pushed to high bronze low silver mmr. If you go 0-5 then, there will be less issue with stuff bc a bronze 4 or five rating will be solidly justified bc you at least had a shot to play at the median mmr (50% point on ladder is like somewhere in silver 2 or 3 I think) and if you lose, then it feels less like getting cheated of the chance to move up.

MalzaharAnyLaneJun 7, 20152 votes

Placements are separate from your game MMR, and are therefore meaningless.

What the hell are you on about?

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 8, 20151 votes

Placements aren't entirely separate from MMR with a soft reset though. A soft reset doesn't put everyone back to neutral, it bumps people a little and then goes through placements based of of that rather than assuming all accounts are the same. That way during placements it can make huge moves based on wins and losses (think +or- 50 LP a game w/ no promos for the first 5 games) to start and then narrow it down.

In the past everyone was reset to neutral, so everyone played each other and the first few weeks of ranked were kind of a joke bc the game treated everyone as mid/low silver (I think that's where the 50% line is if I remember right), and so low bronze players had to lose a few to go back to bronze, and diamond players had to win a few. They got rid of this system though, bc it turns out that having bronze and diamond players in the same game makes for a difficult ranked environment and people didn't like it. So now the system holds over a little info on your MMR from last season and uses that to put you with people who are headed to the same spot probably in your placements.

MasterSeth2025Jun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Placements are separate from your game MMR, and are therefore meaningless.

What the hell are you on about?

every year after the preseason your next 10 games are "Placement matches" however they take your last season into account and more often than not they put you lower, usually not too significantly but it is pretty common for people to go down several divisions or even tiers, hence the term "soft reset". This is different than the initial placement matches that you do to get into ranked.

LuggJun 7, 20152 votes

I was Silver 2, went 6-4 (2 losses were due to afk's), and got dropped to Bronze 2.

The placement system is beyond total garbage. I had a 50/50 record where I was, I should have went up if anything.

DracoliatJun 7, 20152 votes

You forget lp is not all that matters. if you keep losing games, you will lose mmr. if your mmr drops below a certain level, then you go through a soft reset, each win increases your mmr a bit, each loss decreases it. so if after your placement your at a bronze 2 mmr, it will place you in bronze 2. There is no way to determine accurately your mmr, because it's in the background. That's why going from plat to diamond, or other high elo promos, you can stay at 99 lp way before your promos because you don't have the qualifying mmr.

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 8, 20151 votes

Th problem is that MMR is generally something that can't be pin pointed but can be guessed at as a range. If you're gold V and playing with silver II and silver III players constantly, your MMR is probably silver II or silver III level. It drops below your rank, but your rank can't drop bc you're at the division floor.

If he was silver II last season though and his MMR was legitimately mid bronze, the game would try and push his rank toward that. He'd have HUGE LP losses and small LP gains (thus why you see people saying "fix your MMR if you want to climb" bc if it is higher than your rank the LP gains would be the opposite). It would be almost impossible (if not actually impossible) for him to stay in silver II with mid bronze MMR. However, if the majority of the losses were at the start of the placements (when they count for more shift), and his MMR had dropped to silver III or silver IV, then it might be possible for that to be shifted based on last season MMR.

LuggJun 8, 20151 votes

That is why I think MMR is complete BS. If I am winning 50% of my games, how can my MMR be below my current tier. If my win % was below 50, I could understand that.

vikenJun 7, 20152 votes

I know people hate responses like this but climbing out of wherever you got placed to where you were last season really isn't that bad..Idk maybe it's just me but I've never had a problem with climbing out of lower elos that I'm not used to

DoskovJun 8, 20152 votes

Buddy of mine was silver 2 last season. 5/5 in provos. Placed in Gold 4 this season. I was unranked myself last season, went 5/5 as well, and was placed in silver 3.

metaworldpeace10Jun 8, 20152 votes

Hmm I ended the preseason at Platinum 5, went 5-5 and got placed into Gold 1. I felt pretty good about it. Honestly though, the ranking system needs some QoL changes. There needs to be a clearer understanding from a players perspective of where you're at MMR wise. Also, promos are retarded, especially when you are in your promos and your teammates actively troll you before, during and even after the game knowing that you as the player will suffer the consequences.

jaymc1130Jun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hmm I ended the preseason at Platinum 5, went 5-5 and got placed into Gold 1. I felt pretty good about it. Honestly though, the ranking system needs some QoL changes. There needs to be a clearer understanding from a players perspective of where you're at MMR wise. Also, promos are retarded, especially when you are in your promos and your teammates actively troll you before, during and even after the game knowing that you as the player will suffer the consequences.

^ The entire system is in need of an overhaul and the incluosion of individual metrics (ie: champion mastery) as well as role preferences queue ranked and voice communication.

aaronautumnJun 7, 20151 votes

The season doesn't end till November, that's a lot of time for you to get to the ranking you're aiming for. Last season I was plat 3 but this new season I did horribly in my placements and ended up silver 3 (I lost 7 of my 10 placement games), it sucked that I got placed so low but it took me a little under a week to climb back up to plat (currently P5). It's probably a good thing my ranking from last season was taken into account because winning 3/10 games with a full reset would have placed me significantly lower, bronze 5 maybe.

T RexHasTinyArmsJun 8, 20153 votes

That is awesome man. I think this is one of my favorite posts I've read all day, just generally good attitude and encouraging story to hear. I was out of practice and played bad during placements and ended up in mid/low bronze, and while I'm not really that good so I'm only silver II now, I put in time and really tried to get better and I saw my rank shoot up super fast when I really improved a lot. (Might even make gold if I keep playing and improving)

jaymc1130Jun 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The season doesn't end till November, that's a lot of time for you to get to the ranking you're aiming for. Last season I was plat 3 but this new season I did horribly in my placements and ended up silver 3 (I lost 7 of my 10 placement games), it sucked that I got placed so low but it took me a little under a week to climb back up to plat (currently P5). It's probably a good thing my ranking from last season was taken into account because winning 3/10 games with a full reset would have placed me significantly lower, bronze 5 maybe.

Your previous seasons MMR helped your climb... You don't really get how the system works. Op doesn't really get it either though. You guys have to start ignoring the league system entirely. That cover slip doesn't mean a thing. The document inside does. MMR. Op was placed so low because his MMR last season was not very good. No matter what ranking he achieved by the end, his MMR was poor, thus after placements a poor placing this season. The nature of hard resets was so chaotic to the ladder system overall that players complained about it too. And a lot more than about this issue. So back in preseason s3 it was changed to a soft reset. Now, each season instead of resetting everyone's ranked MMR (elo then) to 1200, Its simply compressed toward this region (1200 MMR being new to ranked player MMR) without reaching it.

The higher ranking you are the more its compressed. Vice versa for a very low ranking. Having roughly 1200 MMR at the end of 10 placements will put you somewhere in low silver (4 or 5) and generally happens for placements 4-6 to 6-4 depending on the order of the wins. An account new to ranked will have no previous ranked MMR, so, for its first 50 all time ranked games it will see increased MMR gains and losses, starting with the greatest and progressing toward the least. This is done so the system can (supposedly, but, lets be real) place you quickly at your skill level. After the first 50 ranked MMR gains and LP gains and losses will all normalize and use the standard MMR vs Division average to calculate LP gains. As always having higher MMR than the division or tier average will result in increased LP gains and faster climbing. An account with a previous season ranked MMR will instead use normal MMR and LP gains and losses for placement matches. This should explain everything you have seen OP.

Basically an account has about 50 games to reach an appropriate skill level. After 250 games the system attempts to pair you toward a 50% win rate. Thus most accounts that have reached a given division and tier, rank wiseafter 250 games, become "stuck" in "elo hell". Generally the best bet is to start a new account and try a fresh go at ranked if you want to achieve a higher ranking. The key is your win rate in your first 250 and specifically your first 50 games. Your win rate determines MMR. Ignore LP and the league system entirely.

AmazingGoatJun 8, 20151 votes

Do you have a source for the change after 250 games played? I've heard rumors about that, but I thought Riot denied this was the case? If so, that's terrible.

aaronautumnJun 8, 20151 votes

I don't understand what you're getting at. All I said is I'm glad there was a soft reset because it benefited me in the end. I also said that the op has until November to work towards his/her goal. Can you explain how your post is relevant to mine? As far as I can tell, you're talking about the ins and outs of the ranking system which is not something my post even hinted at.

jaymc1130Jun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand what you're getting at. All I said is I'm glad there was a soft reset because it benefited me in the end. I also said that the op has until November to work towards his/her goal. Can you explain how your post is relevant to mine? As far as I can tell, you're talking about the ins and outs of the ranking system which is not something my post even hinted at.

Its only relevant to your post in so far as it explains how you progressed back to your appropriate skill level in terms of league system ranking very quickly. The post is indeed more the ins and outs of the current ranked system and more geared toward answering ops questions. I simply included your response as a contrasting example to ops. Your ranked placements went awful but high MMR meant it didn't matter. His went awful and low MMR meant it mattered a ton. The juxtaposition of these two circumstances is really the reason I included your response as part of mine.

I apologize if any one was offended or anything, that was certainly not the intent. I was merely trying to shed some light on the ranking system since I feel that was more what the op was upset about. I feel id he knew how to abuse and exploit the broken system he might be less worried about it being broken. It is broken, fyi. But we all deal with it, so level playing field. Those who know the ins and outs climb easier, but in the end a lot of it still boils down to luck. Of 14 accounts I have only one in master tier (likeamaws) and seem incapable of climbing to that level on others. An interesting point of failure on my part, at least to me. Im under the impression that I'm ranked pretty poorly and actually belong a bit lower. Expecially since im often the worst player in my games on that account.

Hopefully I've been of some help.

aaronautumnJun 8, 20151 votes

I hope I didn't come across as aggressive with my last post, I just wanted to clarify my point since I wasn't sure it came across. It is indeed interesting to know how the system works, it explains why I gained so much lp per win (about 25-29 lp per)

jaymc1130Jun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I hope I didn't come across as aggressive with my last post, I just wanted to clarify my point since I wasn't sure it came across. It is indeed interesting to know how the system works, it explains why I gained so much lp per win (about 25-29 lp per)

Nah you came off fine mate, was worried I had made things too confusing. I regularly get 40 and 50 lp on decayed accounts, mmr is really the only thing that matters at all but sadly the vast majority of the player base is unaware. It's a lot easier to climb by skipping divisions and tiers and promos by having good mmr than to climb by grinding promos, which are usually trolled.

BakedLotionJun 7, 20151 votes

gold 5 to gold 2 won 7/10 o.o I like it ;)

ZombiephilJun 7, 20155 votes

{quoted}

gold 5 to gold 2 won 7/10 o.o I like it ;)

You're the first one I've heard since the season started who was placed higher than where you finished last year.

CubismJun 7, 20154 votes

A god among men, I believe is the term.

DracoliatJun 7, 20152 votes

I've heard of COUNTLESS people who this happens to. If you're low bronze, and you win 4 but lose 6, guess what? You have less than a 50% win rate, according to statistics that means you are facing too hard opponents. The system is meant to make you win ~50% of the matches.

NuSix3Jun 8, 20151 votes

50% will probably get you dropped though since even at average MMR/Division you lose a little more LP tan you win.

SukishooJun 8, 20152 votes

I've seen quite a few people place higher then they were.

It's mainly because when the MMR resets it places everyone at around 1300. So the more they win the bette chance they have to be placed higher... though if they were Bronze in the last season then they really don't see much change unfortunately.

Silents429Jun 7, 20153 votes

Um, I don't think the placements allow you to get higher then last season if I recall.

P0IS0N IVYJun 7, 20151 votes

My previous MMR was Plat IV.

Win 7 games in placements.

Gold IV.

......ok?

DracoliatJun 7, 20151 votes

There is no way your know your mmr, noone knows their mmr, or what mmr is for what rank.

P0IS0N IVYJun 8, 20151 votes

I'm assuming if I win and lose the same amount of LP, my MMR is around what my rank is.

jaymc1130Jun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There is no way your know your mmr, noone knows their mmr, or what mmr is for what rank.

Actually the ranked tier breakdowns are pretty common knowledge and still roughly equate to the elo systems ladder steps. 1200 is brand new to ranked player MMR 1000 is bronze 1. about 1500 is gold starting point, 1800 or so for plat, 2100 or so for diamond and about 2500 for master tier. You may not be able to find your actual game used MMR, but you can find an approximate value by using third party resources such as op.gg.

ElJanitorFrankJun 7, 20151 votes

Placements don't really matter. The reason people get placed in a much higher/lower division is because their MMR went up or down since last season.

Placements are essentially useless.

DracoliatJun 7, 20151 votes

Not useless, if you win a placement, your mmr goes up, so you can increase rank.

ElJanitorFrankJun 8, 20151 votes

Yes, and if you win any normal game your mmr goes up the same amount. Making placements a waste of time.

CelosarJun 8, 20151 votes

Normal games affect your MMR? I did not know that.

EDIT: Does this mean that when people tell someone to "fix" their MMR they should play, and presumably win, a bunch of normals until their MMR goes up? I know you can't see it but I'm assuming that if your win % goes up your MMR will go up.

TheKaymonJun 8, 20151 votes

I believe he meant non-placement when he said normal. Ranked and normal queues have separate MMR.

ElJanitorFrankJun 8, 20151 votes

But doesn't normal MMR affect what division you get into when you have no ranked MMR? There's a reason some people get placed gold their first ever time playing ranked, while others get placed bronze. With comparable wins in their placements to boot.

chide da junglerJun 8, 20151 votes

placing low is fun what are you talking about. I can win any lane with gangplank in bronze and Q people for like 1400 endgame.

I hope the placements get made so I can smurf even harder

NecrOpheliaJun 8, 20151 votes

Yeah, the placements were BS.

I've been playing since pre season 1, although I started ranked in season 3, and I got bronze 1 after going 5-5 in promos last year.

This year, I went 7-3 in promos and got bronze 4. Just got into bronze 1 not too long ago; it was a pretty long journey.

My friend who started playing league in season 4 started ranked this year, and he went 2-8 in promos, but he got bronze 2. His 20% and 1 year of experience got him two divisions higher than my 80% and 4 years of experience.

Also, I duo'd with nobody, and neither did he during the placements.

My friend, who, I have beaten multiple times in 1v1's and 2v3's (with me being on the same team as another bronzie, and him being on the team as a Bronzie and silver)

This season is complete BS.

Ultra da boyJun 8, 20151 votes

I went 5-5 and went form Plat 4 to gold 4. Maybe that's fair, I don't know. But I think if I go even, I should just stay in the same place. Not get dropped an ENTIRE tier

ZombiephilJun 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=sT Ultra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9btrbQAd,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2015-06-08T03:54:30.512+0000)

I went 5-5 and went form Plat 4 to gold 4. Maybe that's fair, I don't know. But I think if I go even, I should just stay in the same place. Not get dropped an ENTIRE tier

Yeah this is true. Everyone who goes 5-5 gets dropped a full tier. Not fair, especially when there's so many trolls, afks, rage quits, and intentional feeders.

DifferentialJun 8, 20151 votes

i won 8/10 and got b4 lol

LlaniteJun 8, 20151 votes

It depends on your MMR (not rank) last season and everyone else NEW season.

5-5 will most likely place you where you were at last season in term of MMR, since the highest you can land in new season is plat, all diamond stopped there, which in turn drives plat MMR skyrocket, what qualify you a gold last season now only gives you silver.

For instance, let's say Diamond MMR is 1600-2000, plat MMR 1300-1600 and gold 1100-1300. Beginning of a new season: Diamond MMR: not possible, Plat MMR 1400-2000, Gold MMR 1400-1600, Silver MMR 1200-1400. Your MMR is the same, but ranks deteriorate. If you start really late in the season, and division MMR is stabilized, you'll likely to land in gold if you were gold last ss.

LaserDeathBladeJun 8, 20151 votes

It depends on your MMR, not win rate.

Otherwise at the end of S5 I'd just go lose 100 games in a row to get Bronze 5 MMR, then win all 10 placement matches and get placed in Diamond

Placement games shouldn't have a heavy impact on MMR either, it'd be pretty dumb if a B5 got real lucky and won his first 3 promos and got matched with Gold players; it'd be a terrible match.

jaymc1130Jun 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It depends on your MMR, not win rate.

Otherwise at the end of S5 I'd just go lose 100 games in a row to get Bronze 5 MMR, then win all 10 placement matches and get placed in Diamond

Placement games shouldn't have a heavy impact on MMR either, it'd be pretty dumb if a B5 got real lucky and won his first 3 promos and got matched with Gold players; it'd be a terrible match.

As it stands right now all silver, gold, platinum, and diamond+ players have to play with players with who are worse than their skill level for the entirety of original placements. If I go 4-0 on a fresh account im still playing with silver players. Its pretty rare to win 10 games in placements. Those who do are generally smurfs from master tier or better. They would still be playing with gold level players. There's no scenario in which the system pairs players of equal skill with and against each other. That literally NEVER happens.

ZavernJun 8, 20151 votes

I got sent into Bronze five when I won 7/10.

TwëekJun 8, 20151 votes

Wins to losses doesn't really matter in placements so much as who you're playing against. Something like the 9-1 score you mentioned should place you in bronze if all your games were bronze-level MMR. Someone going 9-1 with Gold/Plat MMR is completely different from someone with Bronze MMR going 9-1.

While I will agree that the first five or so placement games seem needlessly harsh if you do poorly in them, MMR is so volatile just after you get placed that it's easy to climb if the system has mistaken placed you far below where you deserve. Gains start at like 26+ LP on a win.

straight4freeJun 8, 20151 votes

The placements are still based off of MMR. I don't see anything wrong with them.

AmazingGoatJun 8, 20151 votes

Your past performance in ranked is way more of an indicator of your skill level than 10 arbitrary games you play at the start of a season. My guess is that the soft reset is basically a mechanism for pushing people down who are ranked too high (e.g. people who got boosted), so complaints that people get ranked too low are somewhat silly. That's not a bug, that's the entire point of the reset. You will climb to your skill level. Have fun, and don't worry about what your current rank is.