Vayne is so weak early game

FalconPawwwwnch·Jul 20, 2015·52 votes·3,288 views

That she can bully 70% of the melee champions in a 1v1 lane

And out of those 30% all of them have mobility skills

76 Comments

KirbyCakeJul 20, 201523 votes

100% if you're talking about actual melee champions

IcyPepperJul 20, 201516 votes

Ranged champions in general can bully melee champions...

It sucks.

Doran's Shield needs a proper buff for this.

FalconPawwwwnchJul 20, 201528 votes

Yea Ashe is so good at bullying melee champions

Yea Karthus is so good at bullying melee champions

Yea Anivia is so good at bullying melee champions

The difference between the above 3 and Vayne is that the above 3 are catchable

DurzakaJul 20, 20153 votes

Congratz, you listed 3 champions out of the 60 some odd ranged champions in the game.

Care to try again?

KONO RUBICK DAJul 20, 20154 votes

} Veigar TwistedFate Varus MissFortune

when we go so fare, we realise that non mobility ranged champions don't bully meles except some like azir who has zoning

DurzakaJul 20, 20153 votes

Varus bullies the shit out of fucking ranged champions in the mid lane. He can do fine against melee.

Veigar is in a terrible position right now, great example.

TF does just fine against melee when played properly. And when played WELL can be a nightmare.

MF is a fair example.

Now, try looking at the entire roster and picking one of the 80 champions with mobility instead of the 10% without to try and prove your point.

No mobility is no longer the rule, it is the exception and should be looked at like that.

Heres a good one though, since you want to keep talking about no mobility: Ryze

Still like the discussion?

KONO RUBICK DAJul 20, 20153 votes

varus can't do shit with his base ms against mele like jax/irelia/maokai/riven/diana/zed/fizz

same for TF

Ryze isn't mobile, but he has a good disengage with R/W. Actually you are right, mobility isn't the explination but because of mobility carries like Vayne Kalista can easily disengage while putting tons of damage unlike Varus MissFortune

ps: yea i like this discussion

DurzakaJul 20, 20153 votes

Ahri Azir Heimerdinger Leblanc Lissandra Orianna

I could keep going.

Your examples and your argument are shit.

FeathermaneJul 21, 20153 votes

Wait, Karthus ISN'T good at bullying melees? Azingy tore some Irelia a new one the other day, while being ganked every couple of minutes.

CubedJusticeJul 21, 20153 votes

Karthus isn't really designed to bully anybody. He's just there to farm for ages.

lB2kGRlc8yJul 21, 20152 votes

Karthus is good against people who don't understand how Karthus works. As long as they let him hit them with lay waste solo, they'll lose. Karthus doesn't need his slow to land his shit either, making Irelia's fuck you cc passive not amount to much aside from chasing him down.

B1naryB0tJul 21, 20152 votes

Ashe? Catchable? Unless you have a good gapcloser, any ashe who understands kiting 101 will be about as catchable as kalista.

Remlap1223Jul 21, 201511 votes

That's Alistar a Amumu Azir nice Corki slow Ekko you Elise got Ezreal there Fiora it'd Fizz be Garen a Gnar shame Gragas if Graves I Hecarim had Irelia a JarvanIV gap Jax closer Jayce to Kalista nullify Kassadin it.

And I still haven't scratched the surface of all the champions that can easily catch Ashe.

Auz the RipperJul 21, 20151 votes

To be fair, that last champ needs to be lvl 6 to ignore ashe's passive

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20152 votes

If you don't have enough damage to follow up on the gapcloser for a kill, she still will kite you to death.

Ser GarlandJul 21, 20152 votes

Be LeeSin a JarvanIV shame XinZhao if Fiora I XinZhao Didn't Aatrox Have Riven an execute MonkeyKing to Yasuo go Jax with Chogath my Irelia CC Hecarim and Diana Gap Lissandra closer

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20151 votes

Most of them either don't have enough damage early in the game to straight kill ashe, or they screw vayne over aswell, and lissandra isn't even a melee while cho has no mobillity...

macromiteJul 21, 20152 votes

it would be a shame if I was poking you while you wanted to farm and if you traded with me you had to take minion aggro. Ashe

bradJul 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yea Ashe is so good at bullying melee champions

Yea Karthus is so good at bullying melee champions

Yea Anivia is so good at bullying melee champions

The difference between the above 3 and Vayne is that the above 3 are catchable

?????? yes they are?????????? u act like vayne is impossible to touch and aninia, karthus, and ashe all have their feet glued to the ground or something

TheRakkunJul 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yea Ashe is so good at bullying melee champions

Yea Karthus is so good at bullying melee champions

Yea Anivia is so good at bullying melee champions

The difference between the above 3 and Vayne is that the above 3 are catchable

I wouldn't say Draven is catchable due to the fact a skilled draven can spam W as he catches axes to run away.

thePandevJul 20, 201514 votes

People are missing the point of this thread.

The only downside people can list against Vayne is ''Well her early game is shit''. Take that out and what's her weakness?

No matter what you do against a Vayne, 95% of games she stays relevant. She's the most powerful of hyper carries in the game, has her own self peel, invisibility, 3 steroids, stupid chase potential, % HP damage and whatnot.

And the problem with Vayne in lower ELOs is that lane is almost a 50/50 split all the time regardless of champions. Yes, people lose to Vayne early game, and when she gets fed, there is almost nothing you can do about it as a top/mid, other than roam and hope you kill her. She snowballs so hard that you can't really do anything against her unless she's caught out or mobbed.

IAMS4T4NJul 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

People are missing the point of this thread.

The only downside people can list against Vayne is ''Well her early game is shit''. Take that out and what's her weakness?

No matter what you do against a Vayne, 95% of games she stays relevant. She's the most powerful of hyper carries in the game, has her own self peel, invisibility, 3 steroids, stupid chase potential, % HP damage and whatnot.

And the problem with Vayne in lower ELOs is that lane is almost a 50/50 split all the time regardless of champions. Yes, people lose to Vayne early game, and when she gets fed, there is almost nothing you can do about it as a top/mid, other than roam and hope you kill her. She snowballs so hard that you can't really do anything against her unless she's caught out or mobbed.

not trying to say vayne is particularly 100% balanced, but im pretty sure her other weakness are that she's short ranged, one of the squishiest champions in the game, and pretty much all her damage comes from auto attacks ya thats it im pretty sure

manbearswineJul 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

not trying to say vayne is particularly 100% balanced, but im pretty sure her other weakness are that she's short ranged, one of the squishiest champions in the game, and pretty much all her damage comes from auto attacks ya thats it im pretty sure

She just has some issues right now because she's better vs tanks and tanks are pretty strong combined with the fact most meta supports are all-inners who aren't very effective at bullying her,she's just really strong in the current meta,but she has meaningful weaknesses(though yes,most of them do in fact come down to a weak early).

thePandevJul 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

not trying to say vayne is particularly 100% balanced, but im pretty sure her other weakness are that she's short ranged, one of the squishiest champions in the game, and pretty much all her damage comes from auto attacks ya thats it im pretty sure

Most Hypercarry damage comes from AA. It isn't really much of a weakness unless you're trying to say she doesn't have AP damage. But with BoRK and true damage it doesn't really matter.

Short ranged only comes as an advantage in lane, but for an average ADC (Ashe for ex.) the difference is just between 50 units. Except Vayne has tools that allow her to get closer to her target as well as disengage.

Every ADC is squishy with the extreme exception of Graves (passive)

Sozan5Jul 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Most Hypercarry damage comes from AA. It isn't really much of a weakness unless you're trying to say she doesn't have AP damage. But with BoRK and true damage it doesn't really matter.

Short ranged only comes as an advantage in lane, but for an average ADC (Ashe for ex.) the difference is just between 50 units. Except Vayne has tools that allow her to get closer to her target as well as disengage.

Every ADC is squishy with the extreme exception of Graves (passive)

Erm... Average range is 550, which is also the range of Vayne.

List of ADC ranges:

650: Caitlyn 600: Ashe 575: Varus 550: Corki, Draven, Ezreal, Kalista, Miss Fortune, Tristana', Twitch', Vayne 525: Graves, Jinx', Quinn 500: Kog'Maw', Lucian, Sivir

'- They can increase their range, either temporary or permamently.

So yeah, as far as AA range goes - Vayne isn't really on disadvantage. However, it's good to remember that Vayne doesn't really have any skill with more range than her AA.

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20151 votes

short range isn't a big deal in lane unless the difference gets big, which only happens vs cait and kog. Shortrange is a massive factor in teamfights. Vayne has nothing but her 550range AAs, if she wants to do anything in a fights, she needs to get in 550range, lraving her open to counter attacks as nearly every ranged skill and gapcloser hast the same or more range. Her Q has a short range and doesn't creat a huge gap, and her E has a big cd and is only singletarget. If the enemie team goes for a cordinated dive on her or has strong ranged damagesources that foucs her, she really has troubles.

The problem is that soloQ is simply unccordinated, so you rarly have multiple people diving vayne at the same time, it'S usually one after another, and vayne simply excels in killing one dude after another... In soloQ, teams are also often split up, over extend farming a sidelane or do whatever, and vayne can abuse such mistakes really hard, makeing her overbearing in many soloQ matches.

She isn't really as OP as people make her out to be, her winrate in average is 51%, 53% for 125+ games, not really insane numbers here. However, she has a kit that is realy frustraiting to play against and up with kallista in the 'impossible to deal with depending on your pick' front. Still prefer faceing a fed vayne over a fed tristana any day though...

GhiingisJul 21, 20152 votes

''Every ADC is squishy with the extreme exception of Graves (passive)'' People always forget Urgot item 3070

AhmiJul 21, 20151 votes

Like, most of the champions that are supposed to deal heavy damage are super squishy. She also shares her range with Graves and Lucian and stuff....if you want someone who only autoattacks check out Tryndamere lol

67chromeJul 20, 20157 votes

That she can bully 70% of the melee champions in a 1v1 lane

At out of those 30% all of them have mobility skills

What exactly is your benchmark for "melee" here? Or "Mobility"?

Last time I checked, ~80% of the champions in LoL have some type of mobility. It's actually pretty difficult to find champions completly devoid of mobility. I mean - Orianna and Udyr generally feel slow and susceptible to kiting, but they both have %MS boosts in their kits, which is mobility. They have mobility skills.

It's also worth noting that melee champions are split into tank, fighter, and assassin archetypes. Where tanks usually have some charge-attack (mobility), ~50% of fighters are fighter/assassins, and assassins are flat out the most mobile archetype in the entire game.

As for Vayne bullying her lane opponent...

Every champion is capable of winning their lane and bullying their lane opponent. LoL isn't rock-paper-scissors where you're 100% screwed 100% of the time in certain match-ups.

100% of melee champions can also bully Vayne in lane.

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20151 votes

if we talk about evenly skilled players, that simply isn't true, as sad as it is. If you try to play Garren vs vayne top, or scarener, good luck bullying her if she doesn't play far worse than you. Same vs alot other ranged champions...

Very Hard EngageJul 20, 20156 votes

Twitch Veigar Anivia

have even worse early games, at least vayne has % damage.

VentiraJul 20, 20156 votes

{quoted}

have even worse early games, at least vayne has % damage.

have..have you even seen how much damage Anivia can do at lvl 3..? It's absurd, and damn near guaranteed to force the enemy out of lane unless they're packing heavy ass MR.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 20, 20151 votes

wow, how did she managed to hit her Q, so fcking slow?

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20151 votes

vs melees, not a big problem, either they get zoned, or they get close enough for her E to be rather reliable.

Very Hard EngageJul 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

have..have you even seen how much damage Anivia can do at lvl 3..? It's absurd, and damn near guaranteed to force the enemy out of lane unless they're packing heavy ass MR.

good luck landing her Q. and her abilities eat mana like no tomorrow, she can get one combo off and a second would oom her.

VentiraJul 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

good luck landing her Q. and her abilities eat mana like no tomorrow, she can get one combo off and a second would oom her.

Her Q isn't that hard to land, and she can Q>E combo about three times before needing to lay off for a bit.

G1RadiobotJul 21, 20151 votes

To be honest, while her q is slow, the stun on it is large enough that it can be surprisingly difficult to get away from it.

Byakuya KuchikiJul 20, 20154 votes

name a ranged champion that cant?

KONO RUBICK DAJul 20, 20153 votes

Ashe Varus Draven in lane of course

Byakuya KuchikiJul 20, 20158 votes

{quoted}

in lane of course

LOL DRAVEN? he can lanebully anyone

FalconPawwwwnchJul 20, 20158 votes

Let's see Draven try to lane against Irelia or Jax in top lane

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20151 votes

no problem, as his E interupts their gapclosers

just as most carrys, inclouding vayne, he is rather vulnerable to ganks if played solo top.

RenailleJul 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

name a ranged champion that cant?

every ranged champ without mobility.

redniwediSJul 20, 20154 votes

Meh. The mark of a true melee main isn't how well you do in a melee matchup, but how hard you can snowball against a ranged bully. I'm not scared of some Vayne coming into my lane, thinking she can just own the place.

WutsKrakenJul 21, 20153 votes

When Vayne comes top into my domain...Well she just made the worst mistake she could have when she gets rekt thinking she gets a free lane win

I main pretty immobile champs that Vayne is supposed to crush and season 3's Vayne hype gave me all the info I needed on how to smash apart a Vayne top. Just because she is good in this meta of tanks/tanky bruisers, doesn't mean she can just come into my top lane and own the place

What people need to remember is: Vayne top is like laning vs mini Gnar with less early damage and a long CD knockback instead of his slow. OH and unlike mini Gnar, Vayne builds damage and her base stats are very low

Livin like RivenJul 21, 20153 votes

You gotta love it how OP says that Vayne can bully any melee that doesn't have any gap-closers or mobility skills but when people mention other adcs or ranged champions in general he immediately gives them Jax and Irelia. Those can catch Vayne as well, Irelia most effectively.

Sire HippingtonJul 21, 20151 votes

any ranged champion can bully 70% of the melees around in a 1v1 lane. thats not a specialy deal of vayne.

ManetcerosJul 21, 20151 votes

You want a counter pick to Vayne solo lane? Teemo

BeertasterJul 21, 20151 votes

The real point is that vayne can solo top lane rather reliablby against most traditional top laners and shit on them. Simply because Vayne can counter all their engages WHILE punishing those attempts by stacking her passive during the attempt. Riven (an early game duelist) cannot solo a decent vayne. Riven dashes vayne rolls away, riven starts to gap close q (sacrificing her damage) vayne condems her back, riven continues the assault and eats her % health passive. Now riven has q and e on cd while Vayne can still pump out autos.