Boards›Gameplay

AP Junglers in general feel pretty weak right now.

Masala Chai··58 votes·3,574 views

Nidalee - Nidalee went from arguably the best jungler in the game to possibly the worst in one patch, the new jungle kind of fucks her over. Ekko - Ekko jungle was long nerfed a long time ago. Fizz - Fizz was recently reworked, more suited for solo lane over jungle with removal of percent HP damage. Fiddlesticks - Fiddlesticks doesn't clear the new jungle very fast, plus Rylai's was heavily nerfed. Gragas - He doesn't see much play and the ultimate changes; while adding counterplay, drastically reduced his effectiveness. and his clear in the new jungle is fairly slow, as while he has AoE, he doesn't have the attack speed to clear. Elise - Elise was fairly dependent on the slow from Rylai's in order to land her Cocoon, the reduction of the slow drastically increased the difficult of landing Cocoon if you opened with Neurotoxin or Volatile Spiderling. Diana - Diana clears fairly fast, but the directional output of full clear was drastically reduced, plus League of Tank Junglers + Lee Sin, Vi and K6 makes it difficult for her to shine. Evelynn - liked Rylai's quite a bit. None of these junglers are close to 50% winrate with Eve being the closest to 50% at 48.42% and~~ Nidalee~~ Feedalee being the furthest

60 Comments

SwiftKitten888 votes

it wasnt the jungle that screwed Nidalee .. it was losing strength of the ages

Nidalee SO NYAAA1 votes

well it was more then just that Rylai's being nerfed hurt her and the 15% ap being taken off blue hurt her as well.

Unlucky471 votes

ayy does Akali SO HOT sound familiar lmao

Nidalee SO NYAAA1 votes

Yeah it sounds familiar lol

SwiftKitten882 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nidalee SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QO8W4Jw,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-12-16T00:45:21.015+0000)

well it was more then just that Rylai's being nerfed hurt her and the 15% ap being taken off blue hurt her as well.

that was just overkill she was already at 42% win rate.. that just knocked her down to 39%. i mean yes it would have completely gutted her if she was in a viable spot, but when your ALREADY gutted, MORE huge nerfs don't mean as much

Morticianjohn2 votes

Plus they hit her with a big nerf right before all the jungle changes.

ChaosThief6 votes

As much as riot is loathe to give it to the players, just give a standard AP item. No runeglaive, runic echos, just literally AP and mana back on spell damage.

Papa Andrei1 votes

Kinda like an AP warriors, Ap, CDR, and maybe Mana

Rivuo4 votes

Runic echoes is prob the worst enchant hands down. Not many AP junglers even want Ludens echo proc... Let alone a weaker version of it.

They need to make an 80 ap spellblade like lichbane proc

TurquoiseYoshi15 votes

Isn't that kinda what we had with Runeglaive? Which sucked on Fiddlesticks and other non-AA AP junglers?

Rivuo2 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that kinda what we had with Runeglaive? Which sucked on Fiddlesticks and other non-AA AP junglers?

Most ad champs can either use bloodrazor or warrior.. You can even go cinderhulk ( Think vi can use all 3 if she wants ) Jarvan same, and other champs..

AP champs have 1 option, Runic schoes.. Occassionally you see gragas or elise going cinderhulk but lets be honest they really arent the best junglers out atm.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

So you're saying to make an entire fifth jungle item to be only for AA-using APs? That seems kinda redundant, since we'd have two extremely niche AP jungle enchants sitting right next to each other.

Aazzlano3 votes

AD champs get two, why not AP? And many AD champs opt for Cinderhulk too, so in reality they have 3 choices.

Zelorxon3 votes

Duh, weird, just got to explain to a couple of kids that told me elise was OPP why it wasn't true. But yeah, they definitely need some tuning to be back in business, mostly on clear times, mana sustain, scaling itemization and AP removal from the map.

Masala Chai2 votes

Elise is naturally OP because of her PvP, not her PvE. She clears OK, but her dueling is really good. Unfortunately, she falls off too quickly with the changes to Rylai's.

Velasan3 votes

I've seen a fair amount of Elise and Eve, but any other champion who uses their abilities to clear basically got nerfed because the JG camps are stronger and takes longer to kill. Plus the machete changes helped auto attack JG's the most.

Karn Bishop1 votes

was bored so i was curious as to your definition of seen a fair amount of eve's, is one game in the past 20 days considered a fair amount now days for you? because i only saw the one game for you.

Velasan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QO8W4Jw,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-12-16T08:32:07.523+0000)

was bored so i was curious as to your definition of seen a fair amount of eve's, is one game in the past 20 days considered a fair amount now days for you? because i only saw the one game for you.

Yeah, that's about right. In comparison to every single JG in the game that could be played lol. So, yes I've seen her recently.

To be fair though I have seen her in some other games before that. She's out there, just not the most popular.

Elise on the other hand is actually really good right now.

Large Minivan3 votes

Shaco lel

TequilaZombie1 votes

He was farming champions, not camps.

Leeerzeichen2 votes

Diana actually got killed by the new jungle. Before this preseason she had one of the fastest clears and could easily keep her whole jungle cleared while also applying good map pressure. If you had an equal game, you had usually 20-30% cs more than the enemy jungler and because of this, she was pretty hard to 1vs1 her in the midgame. The only champion who could 1vs1 her was khazix while beeing isolated. The new jungle whoever not only nerfed her clear really badly but also made it easy for basically every jungler to keep the jungle permanently cleared.

This change made it really hard to carry a game. Yes, she still can carry game, but only if her teammates snowball and keep her into the game.

SH Azykan1 votes

see I agree with you on most points. The issue is her power clear to 6 used to be the best, but now with everyone clearing as well as her AND being able to gank...she lost her power farm into dominance niche her and shyv both used to fill.

TeCoolMage1 votes

pretty much: Shyvana now replaces Diana since the niche is now about scaling into late game rather than winning 1v1 with gold advantage

ViiLLAiN2 votes

the ap item they need is one that is similar to item 3165

ap junglers need a item that gives them mana or mana regen and possibly cdr

TeCoolMage1 votes

Oh Magus how I miss you

HazyCloud72 votes

Runic echoes is a shell of the item it was when it was first released. To be fair the nerfs it got were justified, but at the moment it could definitely use some buffs.

Maximum Morde2 votes

Probably has something to do with chain nerfs to AP itemization.

Knalxz2 votes

I'm against anything that puts Nidalee back into matches. I could understand her advantages in cougar form if her spear didn't kill or force carries to back after one hit.

All she does is run, pounce, heal, then spear you until you die. It's just annoying to fight against unless you have near equal range and mobility.

P.S Fuck Fizz, I'm okay with everyone else though.

Dominick Destine1 votes

Evelynn is still very good.

Karn Bishop3 votes

She's not though, that 48% winrate is with people who have fully mastered her as a champion. Furthermore her build has been forced to shift into feast or famine with most eve mains buying item 1082 first recall and banking on snowballing early or just flat out lose the entire game. Heck in some situations AD eve builds are getting stronger then her AP builds so when the only two options for a junglers success are to rush dark seal or build tanky ad when primary stat is ap and hope you live long enough to do something its safe to say that the champion is not in a good place at all.

Oh also this is also discounting that she is the only jungler in the game that is only capable of clearing with specific rune page setup and add to that the hp nerf coming up to smite i genuinely am concerned about clearing with decent hp if i make even a single mistake in kiting camps.

Widder882 votes

She has 48.8% win rate overall, but a much higher win rate for players who played a lot of games with her: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/evelynn/all

What I did not liked about the new jungle at the beginning was, that Eve gets oom easily even with a mana item. I tried a muramana, what is strong later in the game but weak early. But I found another solution: Maxing E first. Q triples the mana cost if you max it, but only doubles the damage. Q was nerfed so often, that it is not much better for combat anymore, so it is better to max E to have mana all the time.

Runic echo was weak on Evelynn since the beginning. It is better to rush Sheen and other CDR items.

Furthermore her build has been forced to shift into feast or famine with most eve mains buying first recall

Bruiser items like Abyssal and Rylais were nerfed. At the same time there are more shields an other bullshit in the game.

My solution is to go for a pure damage build: item 3115 item 3100 item 3020 item 3089 item 3146 item 3135 Retard build for retard season. At least I oneshot a lot of people.

The game overall is in a bad state, but Evelynn is fine. No changes needed.

Widder881 votes

.

Vallalan1 votes

and thats because she needs a full VGU.

they are going to completely rework her at some point. for now she stays in a meh state because her kit is very very toxic to play against. mainly just her passive.

Karn Bishop1 votes

No matter what they change it to people will always complain about any form of invisibility she has yet they cant remove it due to it being so core to who she is.

Besides she has the healthiest invisibility in the game compared to any other user of it, unlike Shaco Leblanc Rengar she does need good positioning and lack of it highly punishes her. I get that people hate eve due to old hatred of her original functionality but trying to say that her invisibility is toxic or unfair to play against in comparison to those guys is just funny to me.

TeCoolMage1 votes

They have got to stop capping % damage against non-epic monsters.

Let's not forget Malzahar jungle.

Honestly they have got to rework junglers like supports, so that they function in a solo lane and solo lanes function in their role. That way that stupid talisman can be more useful in allowing ability based champions like Zed or Xerath without being OP on the traditional jungler mages

Papa Andrei2 votes

They need to revamp jg as a whole, all champions should be able to actually go jg, not specific ones. that is the reason this game kinda stales out, certain champions only go certain places and certain build paths. Thats it, not changing it.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Well we both have the same ideas but I don't believe the jungle itself (camp stats + locations and paths) are the problem. I think it's champions and their itemization.

Supports have extremely gold efficient but slot inefficient items and crappy scaling with powerful bases so they fit the hole that is the support role where no other champions can function.

Jungler items have been made based on the jungler champions (remember that spellblade runeglaive item that all ability based junglers except fiddle could use? Diana, Elise, Nidalee, they were all ability based champions that auto'd in between so Riot made the item with no consideration to champions that didn't use autos a lot between abilities as there weren't many in the jungle) and the fact they all happen to have synergy with autos. Junglers are also given higher base armour, crappy pre-6 waveclear, among other things that either stop them from laning or eat into their power budget stopping them from having laning strengths. Meanwhile laners get terrible early armour OR terrible single target + early small AoE that stops them from jungling.

Jungle and Support are both reliant on their champions no early item reliance, so they can get sightstone or upgrade their jungle item which gives absolutely no combat stats.

Troll for Trump1 votes

'Member when Maokai was jg? I 'member

Also,Shaco

General Theritt1 votes

I'd like that have a word with you about an AP scale, Good AoE clear, and great gank potential with one of the world's safest clear champions my good sir Zac

NightmareAmazoX1 votes

Nidalee is still played the most by top ranked challenger players in all regions.

xXxLuteMasterxXx1 votes

Karthus Jungle??? good, fast clear

Hyperiön1 votes

I played that quite a few times in the beginning of last season. Was pretty fun too :)

Dracocrash1 votes

Eve is broken in the right hands. Her sub-par winrate is a result of eve players with no experiance playing her and not knowing what to do.

13900 Essence1 votes

As a jungle main, I feel the same way. It triggers the hell out of me when we get AD mid laners in almost every game when I'm already hovering something like graves, because I really don't want to play an AP jungler. If I get forced to play an AP jungler I usually just pull a meme and pick like kassadin or ryze (in normals at least), because at least then I'll laugh while suffering. I used to abuse tank ekko meta and brought him jg when needed, but Rito don't want no tank ekko.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Oh no. Elise is harder to play. She was only one of the most powerful junglers in the League for most of Season 6.

Also Shaco jungle had one of the highest winrates before the hotfix. Not seeing your point.

PiVoRx1 votes

I dont think that AP junglers are bad, they are just outshined by Lee.

Chroud1 votes

https://s29.postimg.org/mq8q4y4fb/fid.png

Fids doing just fine. Just gotta know how to work the new jungle.

Masala Chai1 votes

I don't think it's very fair for you to use your specific your specific stats, even though I'm not much better than you at my current Silver V, Bronze III doesn't have vision control, and as a result, Fiddlesticks is inherently more strong in lower elos.

I don't think I've ever lost a game vs Fiddlesticks because I always take Tracker's on Elise and Rammus. It's only if I take Skirmisher's on Kindred or Twitch or Stalker's on Diana that I notice a considerable difference.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Moon Ace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9QO8W4Jw,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-15T19:45:44.328+0000)

Nidalee - Nidalee went from arguably the best jungler in the game to possibly the worst in one patch, the new jungle kind of fucks her over. Ekko - Ekko jungle was long nerfed a long time ago. Fizz - Fizz was recently reworked, more suited for solo lane over jungle with removal of percent HP damage. Fiddlesticks - Fiddlesticks doesn't clear the new jungle very fast, plus Rylai's was heavily nerfed. Gragas - He doesn't see much play and the ultimate changes; while adding counterplay, drastically reduced his effectiveness. and his clear in the new jungle is fairly slow, as while he has AoE, he doesn't have the attack speed to clear. Elise - Elise was fairly dependent on the slow from Rylai's in order to land her Cocoon, the reduction of the slow drastically increased the difficult of landing Cocoon if you opened with Neurotoxin or Volatile Spiderling. Diana - Diana clears fairly fast, but the directional output of full clear was drastically reduced, plus League of Tank Junglers + Lee Sin, Vi and K6 makes it difficult for her to shine. Evelynn - liked Rylai's quite a bit. None of these junglers are close to 50% winrate with Eve being the closest to 50% at 48.42% and~~ Nidalee~~ Feedalee being the furthest

    • 5 AD, maybe you haven't tried it out yet.
  2. Didn't make any sense Ekko to be viable in 3 roles but okay then.
  3. Fizz wasn't never intended to be a jungler. People found out that you could do that but Riot dealt with it.
  4. That's true. He deals way less damage in general, kinda laughable.
  5. Well, his ult is still one of the best ones out there. Gragas is either hit or miss type of character right now.
  6. Really? You need Rylais to land cocoon? Are you .... excuse me .... bad? That's like saying that Lee Sin needs Rylais to land his Q LUL.
  7. Problem with Diana jungle has always been her POOR GANKS PRE 6. She does absolutely nothing pre 6. It's the only issue with her and has been for ages. Cut the rest of the stuff or "blablabla", it's irrelevant.
  8. She's good but too squishy early. Most of the players would agree with me. If Eve was a bit more durable, she would be actually fine.

Overall it's not that bad, it's just you're ovexaggerating a bit.

LordGeovanni1 votes

They arent weak but when they are super impactful it feels bad for laners because mr items are weak and nobodyh builds mr first due to ad laners and the coutner to ap laners not being mr but haveing more burst than them if you can reach them.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Masala Chai

Ezreal needs a new title
Gameplay127 comments
187
votes
Stop removing features from your client.
Gameplay55 comments
184
votes
IronStylus has apparently left Riot
Story, Art, & Sound125 comments
181
votes
How to play Kalista, Azir, Yasuo, Zed, Vayne, Riven, Lee Sin etc. as a first time in ranked.
Gameplay70 comments
95
votes
Riot and the Year of Discontent
Gameplay50 comments
92
votes
Riot, I'm concerned that the mana changes will put us back where we started.
Gameplay75 comments
80
votes