PepeHands not again

Moody P·Nov 24, 2018·35 votes·13,134 views

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417343820108267542/516025040219930672/WsB4p95.png

Why have you forsaken me, Merrill?

64 Comments

Malicious MetalNov 25, 201819 votes

Because he really needs a VGU.

Moody PNov 25, 201815 votes

incorrect, he needs buffs

VGUs are the devil's work

Malicious MetalNov 25, 201810 votes

You can keep saying he doesn't need a rework but Riot's inevitably going to put his entire kit into the trash bin where it belongs, so...

Moody PNov 25, 20189 votes

nothing about volis current kit is flawed or dysfunctional, his only fault is being not flashy enough

recent champions are provably far more difficult to balance especially when considering multiple ELOs

CasterGilgameshNov 25, 20187 votes

voli is a stat stick.....

VelasanNov 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

voli is a stat stick.....

All champions are stat sticks....

InfernapeNov 25, 20182 votes

Some more so than others.

ankoanko19Nov 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

All champions are stat sticks....

Uh no dude. Us support & mage players can never be stat sticks! Thats the job for yucky AD champs! Mages rise up!

Moody PNov 25, 20181 votes

enchanters are some of the biggest stat sticks in the game lmao

Moody PNov 25, 20183 votes

that has literally no merit as an argument

rtbf36083462Nov 25, 20184 votes

Think about it:

His entire play style is running straight at people (with no real gapcloser) and auto attacking them until he dies or they die. Barring the occasional dash block they put on his e.

Sounds pretty simple to pull off, right? They problem is, if you want to buff his numbers so that this one-dimensional playstyle is on par with everyone else’s, what becomes the point of playing harder champs when you can just played buffed Voli and run people down all game without really thinking?

And additionally, the “run at people and auto attack people until he dies or they die” niche is already hard over saturated. Garen, Olaf, Skarner, Voli. Even possibly Illaoi at some points.

This makes the champs way too similar to each other and if one ever becomes even slightly better stat wise than the others, there becomes no reveal reason to play any of the others. In fact, of those 4 (there may be even more that I missed) only Olaf has not been a complete and chronic balance problem. Hell, even old Darius had to get reworked away from that play style because there’s simply no more room in that niche for any more champs to be viable.

The only thing stopping Voli from being buffed is Olaf. Because he’s already the owner of the “tank-thing that runs at you and AAs you to death” niche and he’s really not going to give it up.

When champs play way too similarly, for some to rise, others must fall. cough Voli

Moody PNov 25, 20183 votes

His entire play style is running straight at people (with no real gapcloser) and auto attacking them until he dies or they die. Barring the occasional dash block they put on his e.

you've already contradicted yourself by calling him one-dimensional immediately afterwards. Correct usage of Volibear's E entirely determines how successful you will be and makes the difference of whether or not Lucian/Vayne kite you forever or whether you lock down an enemy Tristana and kill her. It's the same way for melee matchups; beating Irelia, Tryndamere, Riven, Jax hinges on you correctly interrupting their dashes or you will get body bagged.

what becomes the point of playing harder champs

Because """harder""" champions still bring far more to the table.

And additionally, the “run at people and auto attack people until he dies or they die” niche is already hard over saturated. Garen, Olaf, Skarner, Voli

All 4 of these champions hold more distinction between each other in their roles to fill than almost every rework or new release in years. You don't substitute Olaf for Garen when you're vsing a Juggermaw comp. You don't pick Volibear for the lockdown that Skarner provides, and you won't pick Skarner for the disruption and AOE potential that Volibear brings. They're already different enough from each other and they've never pushed each other out of viability simply because they were good themselves. Ever.

Even possibly Illaoi at some points.

Don't talk out of your ass.

only Olaf has not been a complete and chronic balance problem.

What? Olaf has been the biggest balance problem; what are you on about? There's a reason he got gutted so hard in the past that they called it an Olafing. Volibear has been able to go under radar for most of his existence and be at least passably good to doing great. It wasn't until the end of season 7 that his performance started nose-diving and Riot needed to acknowledge him.

Hell, even old Darius had to get reworked away from that play style because there’s simply no more room in that niche for any more champs to be viable.

Old Darius got reworked because he was trash. Plain and simple; he was a troll pick at any respectable ELO and needed far more AD through items than his limited kit would allow.

You could have just said you don't like it when champions run at you because you and most of Boards have come to the ridiculous decision that that's somehow a bad thing, because that's really the crux of your argument. I'm sure you'd prefer it if Volibear was an epic super-dashy boy because that's immediately cool and awesome if a champion just doesn't have to even consider being kited or peeled.

Volibear is being kept down because he stomps all over bad players and because his kit isn't marketable. He does not have the visual 'wow' factor that makes Riot money, so they keep him weak until he gets bad enough that people start calling them out for it.

rtbf36083462Nov 25, 20182 votes

You mean to tell me the ONE thing that distinguishes this champion is a tiny aoe knockup around him?
So the only thing that makes these champs unique is slight differences in their damage output/cc?
Illaoi, other than some tentacle plays, legit just runs at people and tries to bonk them to death for the whole game. Like every. Other. Brain dead. Tank-thing.
Olaf did have his shit points, but at some point he was even good enough to be acknowledged at the pro level without completely destabilizing solo queue. All those other champions have literally been meme level their entire lives.
So do you know why they didn’t just buff Darius back then, like you’re trying to do for Voli now? Because then he would completely invalidate every single juggernaut and make them outright unplayable because his stats would easily outclass them in every way. They had to rework him so he would play different from other juggernauts so he couldn’t completely outclass them with nothing but better numbers.
I don’t even think a champ needs flashy mobility to be cool. Taric, Poppy, Jhin, Xayah, Urgot, and Darius all have proven themselves to be capable of pretty cool things (and possibly now Neeko). Voli, on the other hand is actually nothing but bargain bin Garen, and cmon, GAREN of all champs. Let that sink in.
If you buff Voli, Garen and some others become 100% worthless. Why play a champ who plays just like this other champ, but with worse stats?

Moody PNov 25, 20183 votes

You literally have no concept of what you're on about. Please don't bother me after this response.

You mean to tell me the ONE thing that distinguishes this champion is a tiny aoe knockup around him?

And his ult. No other fighter is able to affect multiple people to the extent Voli is with auto attacks. His goal is to get into the thick of a fight and AOE people down with R and keep disrupting with Q and E with the added bonus of getting to burst a squishy; he also has easily the best engage of any Juggernaut. Olaf gets picked to counter comps that put all their focus on one champion to do all their damage (Kog'maw/Twitch meta). Garen's an anti-snowball champion with a bit of anti-caster in his silence. Skarner is for lock down and target isolation.

They all do different things. Far more variant in their roles than most fighters, especially the new ones who are all complete generalists who are bad at nothing; ironic that you're prattling about them making anyone irrelevant but then singing Urgot's praises when Urgot and Aatrox are better than every other juggernaut at almost everything and are actually making other champions irrelevant.

So do you know why they didn’t just buff Darius back then,

Because Darius would still be garbage, because you can buff numbers all you want, his kit would still be trash. Volibear does not have that issue; he's been relevant all the way up to the pro scene multiple times and it's almost always indirect changes that end up shafting him. He has a great kit, he's held back by terrible numbers.

Illaoi, other than some tentacle plays, legit just runs at people and tries to bonk them to death for the whole game. Like every. Other. Brain dead. Tank-thing.

First of all, no she doesn't. She's designed specifically to be dog shit at chasing people down. She builds a nest and tries to get you to come into her reach while she advances and then blows you up if you misstep. Illaoi easily takes more skill to play to a high level than anyone you play.

So the only thing that makes these champs unique is slight differences in their damage output/cc?

That's exactly how niche works. Stupid shit gimmicks don't matter at all if the outcome is the same thing that everyone else is doing. This is why Irelia is a stupid rework; because her niche qualities are completely obscured by the heaps and heaps of things that make her an always good champion. Why every "modern" tank is completely interchangeable with each other because they have NO NICHE. They go in, and they CC you, and that's it. They lock you down. How they do it does not matter; what CC they're hitting you with does not matter if it's still all hard CC.

Akali is the only recent update that comes to mind that can truly qualify as a niche champion; she is not and will never be an 'always good' pick by nature of how her kit works and has not been bloated with add-ons to make that different.

So I'll reiterate; these 4 champions already stand out from each other far more than anybody you'd sing the praises of.

rtbf36083462Nov 25, 20181 votes

In fact, for tanks, it’s the OLD tanks that are the brain dead ones, I think you have your nostalgia glasses on too tight.

rtbf36083462Nov 25, 20181 votes

Also, tfw the only difference between Voli and Skarner is 1.5 seconds of CC and about 600 units of distance.

VelasanNov 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-25T01:05:12.419+0000)

You can keep saying he doesn't need a rework but Riot's inevitably going to put his entire kit into the trash bin where it belongs, so...

Actually Volibear has an interesting enough and satisfying kit to use. It's simple, but I think that's the allure of it frankly. There needs to be accessible and easy champions in the game.

I like and have played a lot of Volibear. Definitely understand he's not the best champion in the game by a mile, but he does what he needs to do and does it well. What primarily makes or breaks him is just access to HP especially at early levels when he's strongest between early and mid game.

Needs a visual update for sure though. There are tons of things they could do to make him look more bear like and his armor stand out more.

You are probably right that they will rework him anyway. I loved old Swain and he got sent to the trash bin and technically there was nothing wrong with his kit except being a lane bully. The new one does practically all the same things just without DOT's.

wolviusNov 25, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-11-25T00:38:45.097+0000)

incorrect, he needs buffs

VGUs are the devil's work

VGU's aren't evil, gailoising and qqtroxing are. Warwicks and nunu vgu were pretty good, urgots was probably necessar they old one was a mishmash of stuff.

There is definitely stuff they can keep from current Voli, the chain lightning isnt problematic and should be kept in some form and the QoL changes to his rolling thunder were good and could be carried over to something in a VGU.

ŚhunpoNov 25, 20182 votes

I'm with Moody here, Volibear's kit is actually rather interesting and fun already. Although his ult could use a mini-rework.

SangreDeNocheNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

urgots was probably necessar they old one was a mishmash of stuff.

I still miss being able to drop the vial on people and following it up with long range rockets. It was such a fun way to poke, mainly due to the animation.

wolviusNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I still miss being able to drop the vial on people and following it up with long range rockets. It was such a fun way to poke, mainly due to the animation.

Some parts of his old kit made sense but that ult was completely out of place, why would he want to swap position into middle of enemy team when he really wanted to stay at the edge of a fight and poke with corrosive vial and missiles.

SangreDeNocheNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Some parts of his old kit made sense but that ult was completely out of place, why would he want to swap position into middle of enemy team when he really wanted to stay at the edge of a fight and poke with corrosive vial and missiles.

But then they could've just given him his current ult without SHOTGUN KNEES along with MINIGUN AUTOS THAT DON'T WORK WITH ANYTHING AUTO RELATED and he would've been fine, yeah?

DoktorKaiserNov 25, 20182 votes

Please no, inb4 Q has a 500 range dash too, W deals true damage instead, E fears champions too and R stuns if 3+ champs are hit with a lightning.

Edit - and yeah passive now gives 50% damage reduction while it's on

BjørnetjenestenNov 25, 20183 votes

If the champ is not popular i dont trust VGU's anymore. Look at Swain Aatrox Galio Urgot ; they all have kits/design completely different from their original concept now. Their VGU's were basically them getting deleted and an entirely different champion taking their slot.

Unless the champ is popular & humanoid with a giant playerbase they are not getting the Akali Irelia Ezreal Evelynn treatment, which were basically modern upgrades of their original kits.

Pretty sure Volibear (and in your case) will be completely unrecognizable after the VGU. Those "new" champs will not be intended for the original playerbase, but will have something more fancy and appealing to a broader playerbase.

rtbf36083462Nov 25, 20181 votes

...because those champs had nothing worth keeping in their designs?

wolviusNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

...because those champs had nothing worth keeping in their designs?

Well they actually had things worth keeping just not a lot, galio did keep his taunt in a way. Their original kits were flawed as a whole, some worse than others. AAtroxs was probably the worst change and a failure, completely new playstyle basically a caster instead off AA'r and not much more healthy as a champ balance wise.

rtbf36083462Nov 25, 20181 votes

He became a caster because there’s already like 20 facerolling AA divers in this game and it is the single most uninsipired, boring, and amateurish design you could possibly have in a MOBA.

Wukong, old Irelia, old Xin, Shyvana, old Poppy, Tryndamere, Master Yi, old Fiora, old Warwick, Jax. Basically, anyone who literally didn’t do anything but run straight at people and mindlessly mash the keyboard at melee for the whole game.

Truth is, this game didn’t lose anything when Aatrox got reworked because he had the most generic kit in the game. 3 hit passive, dash, indistinct poke, invul. He was everything that people criticized most about league champion design and even Riot has been doing there best to erase these brain dead facerolliing divers from the game (see how many reworks I listed).

If you build a certain way on Jax/wukong now I think you can even effectively mimic old Aatrox. THAT is how uninspired his gameplay was.

wolviusNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He became a caster because there’s already like 20 facerolling AA divers in this game and it is the single most uninsipired, boring, and amateurish design you could possibly have in a MOBA.

Wukong, old Irelia, old Xin, Shyvana, old Poppy, Tryndamere, Master Yi, old Fiora, old Warwick, Jax. Basically, anyone who literally didn’t do anything but run straight at people and mindlessly mash the keyboard at melee for the whole game.

Truth is, this game didn’t lose anything when Aatrox got reworked because he had the most generic kit in the game. 3 hit passive, dash, indistinct poke, invul. He was everything that people criticized most about league champion design and even Riot has been doing there best to erase these brain dead facerolliing divers from the game (see how many reworks I listed).

If you build a certain way on Jax/wukong now I think you can even effectively mimic old Aatrox. THAT is how uninspired his gameplay was.

They didn't gain anything from the rework either but another proplay balance problem and irrating top lane opponent. Old aatrox had to go but this form ain't any better.

Old Astros had some interesting parts like the converging line thing that couldn't hit someone right in your face and having to sacrifice damage for healing, ult was nothing but stats checking though.

BârdNov 25, 20181 votes

Urgot old W was cool, and they preserved it to some degree. His old ult went away entirely, which is a shame because it was awesome. Swain retained nothing. This isn't even remotely similar to the old Swain. Aatrox retained his old play pattern (extreme aggression), his sustain, and his revive. Unfortunately, most of his mechanics were changed entirely. Galio retained his taunt and his MR. Everything else changed completely.

rtbf36083462Nov 29, 20181 votes

Urgot ...wasn't his old W just Frozen Mallet?

Swain He retained nothing because it turns out "Simultaneously hit all the keys on your keyboard and left click towards the enemy" isn't actually a sustainable playstyle.

Aatrox Because said mechanics are on like every single diver in the game and they couldn't think of a way to rehash them for the trillionth time in MOBA history.

Galio Now has more character depth and uniqueness than ever before. Also: old Galio, Lux called: she wanted her stale-ass skillshot spells back.

AbyssmalHydraNov 25, 20189 votes

item 3070 Mordekaiser

Malicious MetalNov 25, 20181 votes

What, he's doing really well this preseason.

AbyssmalHydraNov 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-25T10:04:24.332+0000)

What, he's doing really well this preseason.

I dont understand what you mean, hes doing the same as he always has been. His win rate was inflated because of a bug if thats what you're using as context. Overall I dont think Mordekaiser will be anything like he was in pre ardent meta.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 25, 20188 votes

Last I recall, Volibear was up there for a Tier 1 VGU.

Moody PNov 25, 201810 votes

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417343820108267542/516076386239119382/f79a5ed0b77401c6feee36e68e308ff2.png

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 25, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-25T03:19:07.056+0000)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417343820108267542/516076386239119382/f79a5ed0b77401c6feee36e68e308ff2.png

Me as a Vi main looking at Camille.

Full BrainNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Me as a Vi main looking at Camille.

Nothing is really wrong with Vi though Camille is just sleeper busted as bad as Irelia and LeBlanc.

SangreDeNocheNov 25, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Brain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-25T06:05:31.668+0000)

Nothing is really wrong with Vi though Camille is just sleeper busted as bad as Irelia and LeBlanc.

Literally everything she does is done better than camille and she's been a balancing problem from day 1 like Xin Zhao because of her linear design that basically boils down to rocketing onto one target to delete them before they can move. If she can, she's overbearing invading jungles, clearing camps on both sides easily, getting dragons alone without hassle, and deleting somebody every time R is up. When she can't, she sits in the gutter waiting for a item or rune to break her again.

Full BrainNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Literally everything she does is done better than camille and she's been a balancing problem from day 1 like Xin Zhao because of her linear design that basically boils down to rocketing onto one target to delete them before they can move. If she can, she's overbearing invading jungles, clearing camps on both sides easily, getting dragons alone without hassle, and deleting somebody every time R is up. When she can't, she sits in the gutter waiting for a item or rune to break her again.

I know she has an obnoxious gap closing/displacement based kit with camp clear that could easily get overtuned but I am talking about right now and that doesn't really matter since Lee Sin has all of those things and is also just as easy to play as her except Lee has more utility so he is META and she isn't. I don't think she is particularly undertuned right now. I think that there is just a group of broken characters that make her feel that way and they should be brought back down to the pack.

SangreDeNocheNov 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Brain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-25T07:00:36.687+0000)

I know she has an obnoxious gap closing/displacement based kit with camp clear that could easily get overtuned but I am talking about right now and that doesn't really matter since Lee Sin has all of those things and is also just as easy to play as her except Lee has more utility so he is META and she isn't. I don't think she is particularly undertuned right now. I think that there is just a group of broken characters that make her feel that way and they should be brought back down to the pack.

Except lee has ways to weave in and out while Vi is usually stuck where she goes due to her ult and her dash being a usually 1-way gap-closer that even if she DOES get to use to get out, can be body blocked. Lee's also got one of the most rabid fan-bases who snarl and screech whenever he's nerfed in any meaningful way so really his buff nerf cycles are much different than Vi's.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 25, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Brain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-25T06:05:31.668+0000)

Nothing is really wrong with Vi though Camille is just sleeper busted as bad as Irelia and LeBlanc.

Camille has immense advantages over Vi.

Camille is:

More consistent.
Better gap closer.
Stronger lockdown potential.
More tools. (Range W poke, E for checking placements, R can be used to strictly stop mobility, etc.)
Can be flexed top/jungle
Generally outperforms Vi at every stage save for 15-25 minutes.

Comparatively, only a few things are improved on Vi vs. Cam.

Vi:

Has a stronger shield.
Is easier to play.

Daddy AntsNov 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Last I recall, Volibear was up there for a Tier 1 VGU.

As long as they don't let CertainlyT or Riot Jag do the VGU.

Moody PNov 25, 20182 votes

certainlyT is literally the only person to make good VGUs

Daddy AntsNov 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2018-11-25T22:00:46.454+0000)

certainlyT is literally the only person to make good VGUs

Akali VGU is good?

lmao.

Best one he did was Warwick.

Moody PNov 26, 20181 votes

yes. objectively a good rework

AbyssmalHydraNov 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Akali VGU is good?

lmao.

Best one he did was Warwick.

and even warwick was busted. for like a full year.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 25, 20182 votes

Volibear really needs a rework

The one that gave him the mini knockback on E is useful and his Q is definitely better, but as long as his W scales on health and his R is an onhit steroid he's going to be this weird midgame statcheck champion that isn't allowed to scale because of the fact he's tanky.

Like he should probably have a different ult and/or W. Mostly the ult though, give him something other than the psuedo static shiv and it'll already give you more reason to pick him.

Moody PNov 25, 20181 votes

No.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9BM6x4ds,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-11-25T15:52:23.184+0000)

No.

Then don't expect him to ever really be buffed or anything

Skarner is doing what Volibear's gameplay pattern is supposed to do but better because Riot experimented with the shit that didn't feel useful in his kit and he now actually has sticking ability with his E and the shrines give him jungle control

If Riot just straight buffs Voli he's just going to get gutted and we'll be in the same situation where he's a forgotten champion again