Thornmail now applies Grievous wounds on hit

YES. Fuck the adc

Not necessary. Thornmail already negates more Lifesteal than can be reasonably build.

Maths ahead:

An attack deals X damage. Thornmail reflects 0.3X.

The champion with Thornmail has 150 Armor after Last Whisper, (which would easily be reached by Thornmail + Ninja Tabi, for example - discounting Tabi's passive here). This means he takes 0.4X damage.

An ADC with Bloodthirster has 20% Lifesteal, which means he heals 0.2 x 0.4X = 0.08X.

Our carry bought an MR item, boosting his own MR to 100. This means he takes half of Thornmails reflected damage, or 0.15X.

The carry deals 40% of his attack's raw damage to the enemy's HP, and 7% of his attack's raw damage to his own HP.

Said carry even needs three big items to be able to take only 7% of his attacks damage himself - a Banshee's or GA for MR, Last Whisper for penetration and a Bloodthirster for the Lifesteal.

TL;DR: Thornmail isn't supposed to make an enemy carry kill himself. It is supposed to make him easier to actively kill by yourself, as it negates his main direct defense mechanic of drain-tanking. And does a wonderful job at it, as said carry needs three completed items, all of which are more expensive than Thornmail, to limit the damage - and not even negate it.

Implying that Thornmail doesn't already negate Lifesteal.

In order for someone's Lifesteal to beat Thornmail's reflection, the Lifesteal required is going to be proportionate to their MR and your Armor. If, somehow, you have the same amount of Armor as they have MR (or, more realistically, if they have enough ArPen to bring your effective Armor to being equal with their MR), they need exactly 30% Lifesteal for Thornmail's damage reflection and their Lifesteal to cancel each other.

But if you have more than 250 Armor, even assuming Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and the mastery, they still need over 100 MR to match up (around 115, minus flat pen). So, unless Thornmail is your only Armor item, it's next to impossible to have someone actively Lifestealing through Thornmail.

Adding Grievous Wounds to Thornmail, even with a cooldown, would only make it actually impossible.

Thornmail is already pretty damn good at hurting AA reliant champs, I'm actually kind of opposed to this lol

ye alright ok mmph

In all seriousness this would make Rammus much stronger but I think there should be an efficient AD item that gives Grievous Wounds.

I think that you'd need to lower the armor or dmg reflected amount to compensate. But I would NOT be opposed to this. Presently Swain and Mundo are a dire pain without Executioner's calling, I would like for them to be penalized for throwing a single autoattack. The ADC help would be nice too.

http://www.newsoflegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/DealWithItRammus.png

Nah, not an OnHit effect.

Make it an active so it can be used against a wider range of champions rather than just ADCs. Making it an active gives more room for baiting, disengaging, and counterplay.

Okay so let's try math. I'm not hundred percent on how everything interacts so I'm going to be simplistic for my own sake. Mistakes may be made.

Thornmail reflects 30% of dmg dealt as magic dmg. A fully AA reliant adc, let's take currently. At level 18 she has 1947 health. Let's take a 3500 health tank. Resistances don't matter. To kill that tank the adc will self inflict 1050 magic damage. Trist has a flat magic resist of 30 which offers roughly 23% magic dmg reduction. This means thornmail as is deals 808.5 damage to the target on its own. Compare a similar dmg tank item deals 43 dps in an aoe. To deal the same dmg as thornmail Ts you would need to stand by someone for 24.4 seconds. And unlike this item thornmail is cheaper and the dmg is will always be in effect unless the enemy jinx or Trist can somehow kill you with just abilities.

What is more for an adc to damage you without taking thornmail damage they would need a lot of life steal. gives 20% lifesteal so to kill the 3500 health tank our adc heals 700 hp. Meaning thornmail still gets you a net gain of dmg for 2100g, basically giving an auto attack's worth of dmg if they made the 3500g investment to counter it which most adcs won't have by the time thornmail is made. Even more against champs like vayne who build . If it applied grievous wounds it would have the healing to 350hp over the whole fight. 808-350 is 458 dmg dealth to an adc who invested 3500g with a tank who only invested 2100. That is roughly 1/4 to 1/5 of most ad's health if the adc attacks you 100-0 even more if they didn't build lifesteal first which most don't.

Now let's look at Garen's spell rotation for a comparason as to how much damage this passive is. Q deals 130+40% ad. About half of thormail dmg. His ult deals before missing health 525 magic dmg. About 1.14 thornmails dmg. So thornmail is like adding an ultmate to your spell rotation for a tank. Its passive damage can be almost as ridiculous as dfg's active.

Now in closing I know vayne kog and other aa reliant adc have other non-reflectable dmg sources so they are definitely not crushed by this item, but no one should be killed for you by an item, I am simply trying to show is how effective thornmail actually is as it stands. Making it stronger, yet maintaining balance, would up the cost and lower its effectiveness as a quick investment against the adc. As well this would end up hurting other melee champs just as hard if not harder as unlike adc's, lifesteal is often one of the first investments an ad bruiser builds.

Probably bad. With 50% reduced life steal, ADCs would melt themselves incredibly quickly trying to bring down the enemy tank. As an ADC, if you had a heal support like Raka or Nami or Sona, you would basically be unable to touch the enemy tank late game without totally screwing yourself over. That would be a whole lot of power loaded into one inexpensive item. This is an especially bad idea given that, with a few notable exceptions, ADCs are the only class to really have enough sustained DPS to bring down a tank.

Thornmail is already pretty punishing. Life steal will often cancel out most of it's damage, meaning an ADC will never kill themselves attacking you. But, assuming they are taking damage from any other sources, negating their life steal is still very strong.

Bad allows no counterplay.

as a person that thinks adc are too strong, your suggestion is retarded, all the needs to happen is a reduction in all the armour pen items.

thornmail needs a 25% bonus hp added to it then we will see all the adc cry that everyone builds thornmail. but hey league of tanks is back!!!! i LOVED LEAGUE OF TANKS IT WAS AWESOME BIG BUFF MEN WALKED THE RIFT BIG TUFF MEN not them litle girls.

thornmail should negate 20% of crits and apply grevious wounds on top of the reflection of all basic attack damage. This would make it a viable item instead of going sunfire+randuims as the superior "anti AD" build. You give up HP for more skirmish pontential early game with the reworked thornmail then.

Late game thornmail is obviously a weaker choice over hp.

As someone who loves tanks and mains rammus with a passion..... Fuck no this is a terrible idea.

I like the concept but feel like it should be a active rather than a passive. I feel like it should be a low cool down, lets say 35 seconds. Something else I would like to offer is that when you buy Thornmail you are giving up some late game health, which is why i usually buy a Warmogs to compensate for the health lost. Which means you aren't going to be tanking as much as you would if you bought something like a Randiun's, which in turn means that the passive of Thornmail won't be as effective. Not to mention that a late game ADC will met a full build tank in around 5 seconds. As well if you are to state that with this change Thornmail would be OP this would literally have to be your first item, which is not something you should ever do. Personally I like the idea but with a minor tweak, making it a Active with a low cool down.

i think the riot has tried to stay away from defensive debuffs and the overall defense path. an item that punishes offence is a hard sell. with that said...

instead of the grievous wounds ... thornmail reduces any on hit buffs by x% would be a better solution (crit dmg, pen, %pen, LS, DFG, BORK etc)

in adding grievous wounds is it makes thornmail a more team orientated item and strays a lot from the original intention of the item. so this is more of a moderate change? idk.

That would be just Downright Darius

Absolutely good, since quite often you have people lifestealing around the thornmails damage. Maybe a small increase in gold would be in order, since it is one of the cheaper tank items and giving it that added passive makes it WAY better, but it would be great.

54367

sounds to AWESOME for tanks to ever happen. riot hates tanks