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CDR Discussion

The Bearded Bard·Nov 14, 2015·3 votes·570 views

Alright so CDR is now pretty much universally easy to max out on all roles except mages, and I'm not okay with that.

Let's look at some items. Mind you I'm just doing finished items.

AD gets and . That's 6 items with a total of a whopping 90% cdr.

Just gonna combine tanks and supports to save time and effort: I think that's it. Anyways, tanks can normally get 40% with just SV and Frozen heart/fist with iron locket or face of the mountain. Supports are usually gonna grab one of their items for 10%, locket, and the last 20% depends heavily on the support, but they've got a lot of viable options for it.

Now, mages:

This one was pretty core on quite a few for quite a while, but with the recent nerfs to GW and the price increase, it just doesn't feel like the best item right now. Still the best AP CDR item we've got, but it feels significantly weaker.

A fine item, but not for all mages. I'd be hard pressed to buy this on anyone that isn't super mana hungry.

Pretty good, but definitely not for most. A niche item at best for those atk speed ap champs.

Again, fine item, but a niche pick. Not going to build it on most mages.

Great for like three champions, but certainly not a top pick for the rest of them.

Whoops, forgot but yeah, jungle exclusive and also just got nerfs and a price increase. It's the most expensive jungle item now yaaaaay.

And that's it. That's all mages get. Quite a few niche items, one for heavy mana champions, and one that's been nerfed quite hard.

Discuss.

20 Comments

ToasteyNov 14, 20151 votes

Riot did the thing again, where instead of just elevating a weak party to compete with a dominant party, the buff the weak party and nerf the dominant party. I guess they were sick of control mages and tanks, so they nerfed AP and tank items a bunch and then gave AD's all these new items to play with.

ProfDrDeathNov 14, 20151 votes

You're right. I think that AP mage itemization can afford to get another item with CdR.

However, it should be a new item, not one of the already existing ones. Any ideas?

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20152 votes

If it were up to me I'd just bring DFG back and call it a day, but that's probably not going to happen. Although they did bring back a different version of Executioner's Calling, so perhaps there's a chance.

I'm thinking an item that doesn't give mana, mana regen, or attack speed. Perhaps a QSS item with cdr? Or a tenacity item?

ProfDrDeathNov 14, 20151 votes

Realistically, I cannot see either of those happening.

DFG was unhealthy for the game, in the regard that it caused AP assassin to be balanced with the item's existance in mind (meaning, they had to build it to function properly) and basically turned even the more control-oriented mages into straight-out bursters.

Tenacity was just reduced on Merc Treads and removed from any other item in the game. Making it more accessible again is not really the route I see Riot taking...

QSS is an item for sustained damage dealers and is to ADCs what Zhonya's is to most mages. I could theoretically see it getting an upgrade with CdR, a bit of AP and a passive like Deathfire Touch - but at the same time, the space for that effect is now occupied by Deathfire Touch itself.

Golden CompassNov 14, 20151 votes

I'd like to see another medium AP item with armor so that mages have options when they want to itemize defensively. Zhonya's Hourglass is the only realistic armor option for mages, and it's already a must-buy in many cases because it's already a big AP item. It'd be nice to see a slightly lower AP/armor item to give mages more choice in their build paths; giving up a little AP for some CDR would make it a nice niche for AP champs wanting a bit of defensive utility and CDR without hitting a massive power trough.

However, an even bigger hole in mage itemization is AP/MR items. In this category, there are only two. While AP/armor only has one, that one is almost universally useful. Athene's Unholy Grail and Abyssal Scepter are not that great on many mages (especially manaless ones), and this would be exacerbated by the Abyssal Scepter rework on the PBE. Historically, there have been very few ways for mages to combat magic damage aside from simply beating their opponent in lane, because Grail offers so little MR, and you can't just stack Grail with Abyssal and expect to be useful. Rushing Abyssal Scepter became popular in the past year, but again, that's exactly one build path that gives mages very little license for creativity. I feel like this is a possible area for a CDR item that would give mage builds more flexibility.

That said, I think mages are actually really strong this patch because of the prevalence of AD carries in every other part of the map. The need to build large amounts of armor have actually given control mages free reign to wreck shit that they haven't had in a long time.

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

'Oh people aren't building against you so you're better now!' Is an awful argument. Just because they're too dumb to build against you doesn't mean they can't. Mages are definitely not in a strong spot right now.

As for more defensive AP items, I'd rather just not. AP already have the ability to get around 3.5k health, quite a bit of resistance, and some nifty passives and actives just from items (ROA,Liandry,Rylais,boots of choice,zhonyas,abyssal/rabcap/banshees) although that build is pretty exclusive to dot mages like Swain, Brand, Malz, etc.

I also wouldn't want this theoretical cdr item to have resistances on it because that makes it niche in itself. You might want to rush cdr, but you're not going to rush an MR cdr item vs zed, ya know?

Lord BoltrixNov 14, 20151 votes

Honestly, after introducing the whole 45% CDR thing with that one new mastery, I feel Riot should just go the full length and just introduce 50% CDR into the game, because they've already proven they are willing to push that envelope. But even if they did that, considering the optimization for CDR on mages, I agree that there should be more options for mages that don't rely on either having CDR runes or going Athene's + Morellonomincon.

Especially considering the removal of Twin Shadows, which was also a situational item but still a valid option for some mages. One familiar AP item with Cooldown Reduction, Deathfire Grasp was problematic because it's active basically fed damage into damage and turned any mage with semi-decent burst into an assassin, hence why it was removed.

Hm, Black Market Brawlers items... a bunch of them have CDR and are designed for mages... perhaps we could implement a few of them into the game?

Akali is SO HOTNov 14, 20151 votes

Or you could use some runes to get to max CDR like most people do

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

Wow the ignorance is real. You're telling me that I should have to use CDR runes if I want to have max CDR? As a mage I should just forgo stats that help my early game like ap, mana regen, and mr in lieu of CDR, a stat that's near impossible to efficiently max out on most AP champs.

Instead of fixing the problem, let's just have people pretend there isn't one.

Akali is SO HOTNov 14, 20151 votes

I'm so terribly sorry it's a little bit harder now to get max CDR as mages. I know it must be terrible. I've been running 20% CDR in my runes since forever and I've always been fine. You people want everything handed over to you when mages have had the best itemization in the game since the very beginning of beta lmao

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

Think of all the times an item has broken the game, has it ever been an AP item? Devourer, warrior, cinderhulk, Atmogs, black cleaver multiple times, the only time an AP item has broken the game was Runeglaive, and that was because laners that usually aren't even built ap were abusing it.

AP has the most balanced itemization, not the strongest. Not a single AP item is groundbreakingly OP. Scream Zhonyas all you want, sure it's a great item, but it's not so ridiculously broken that every mage builds it. I've gone plenty of games without it.

CDR runes are great and all, I use them myself because the ap CDR itemization is so shitty, but it doesn't have to be this way and there's no reason it should be this way.

ErockandrollNov 14, 20151 votes

I'm not even sure if that's necessary, mostly in the sense that CDR is more useful for spell slingers, But if your goal is increased burst, you just want raw damage. You also get 10% CDR from blue buff, so I wouldn't mind being 10% from max.

Yet if you really don't care about damage, you can always sub out Sorc shoes for Lucidity boots. That combined with your mana regen item should be plenty.

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

I'm gonna use top lane Karma as an example here.

There is absolutely no way to efficiently get full cdr on Karma without using runes. She doesn't use attack speed enough to get nashers, isn't mana hungry enough for athene's, doesn't have any spells that apply on hits for lichbane, isn't jungling in this situation, and wota just straight up isn't an item I'd build on her. Leaves Morellos for her, an item that's been pretty severely nerfed. You can also get the cdr boots, but you're sacrificing pen for it and it's only going to get you to 30%. Sure, blue buff gets you to 40%, but I hate relying on blue buff because as a top laner, I rarely ever get it, and if I do, it's a temporary stat. Why would blue buff be an excuse to not have better cdr itemization for mages?

I ask again, why should mages have to rely on non-item sources to get max CDR when every other class in the game doesn't?

ErockandrollNov 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8tbWKLYn,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-11-14T18:49:22.506+0000)

I'm gonna use top lane as an example here.

There is absolutely no way to efficiently get full cdr on Karma without using runes. She doesn't use attack speed enough to get nashers, isn't mana hungry enough for athene's, doesn't have any spells that apply on hits for lichbane, isn't jungling in this situation, and wota just straight up isn't an item I'd build on her. Leaves Morellos for her, an item that's been pretty severely nerfed. You can also get the cdr boots, but you're sacrificing pen for it and it's only going to get you to 30%. Sure, blue buff gets you to 40%, but I hate relying on blue buff because as a top laner, I rarely ever get it, and if I do, it's a temporary stat. Why would blue buff be an excuse to not have better cdr itemization for mages?

I ask again, why should mages have to rely on non-item sources to get max CDR when every other class in the game doesn't?

Don't know what to say. (didn't consider top lane) But I will ask again if CDR is so important on an a class of champ that focuses AP. I would argue no, because with few exceptions, most AP arn't spell slinger enough to fully benefit from full CDR. (not even Karma)

Even with utility casters like Karma and Lulu, the Strength of the utility, which is a product of AP can still be more useful than faster casting.

But I suppose you can look into the support itemization if you want excessive amounts of CDR. (cause there's plenty there.)

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

Yea because CDR is more important for an adc than a mage. I knew I'd get comments about supporting as Karma. Should have picked someone else. Alright here ya go: Ahri Annie Kassadin Karthus Leblanc Lissandra Orianna Veigar Syndra Zilean Xerath Ziggs Velkoz

Just gonna tell me to build all of them support as well? Gonna tell me that cdr isn't important on them?

ErockandrollNov 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8tbWKLYn,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-14T20:05:20.413+0000)

Yea because CDR is more important for an adc than a mage. I knew I'd get comments about supporting as Karma. Should have picked someone else. Alright here ya go:

Just gonna tell me to build all of them support as well? Gonna tell me that cdr isn't important on them?

If you think spell slinging is that important, yes. But that should only be the case if you rely more on the CC and other utilities that don't scale with AP. (Which usually means your the support.)

I'm not saying CDR isn't important. I'm saying MAX CDR isn't important. (at least not compared to having enough damage to kill)

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

Everyone else gets to max out their stat and cdr, why are mages the exception? Do tanks sacrifice armor or MR for cdr? item 3110 item 3190 item 3065 No. Do ADC lose out on damage for CDR? item 3508 item 3142 item 3078 item 3812 Nope.

Look I'm not asking for OP mage items, I'm asking for an item that gives CDR, AP, and isn't a situational/niche item. I'm asking for an option to max out cdr without outside sources or inefficient items.

ErockandrollNov 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8tbWKLYn,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-14T20:42:00.121+0000)

Everyone else gets to max out their stat and cdr, why are mages the exception? Do tanks sacrifice armor or MR for cdr? No. Do ADC lose out on damage for CDR? Nope.

Look I'm not asking for OP mage items, I'm asking for an item that gives CDR, AP, and isn't a situational/niche item. I'm asking for an option to max out cdr without outside sources or inefficient items.

I think the items you listed are more situational than you think. You do lose out on tankyness when building Locket, Because it's balanced as an Aura item. (only the Jungler or support would want that) and most of those ADC items are also pretty niche. Yomue's has been shifted towards Assassin. ER might be the only one out of line on that list.

But over all, Riot is kinda Against creating Generic items. Cause of how their their gold effeciency differs based on how different people use it. And frankly, I really don't think that genericness is worth supporting.

The Bearded BardNov 14, 20151 votes

Spirit visage maybe, but Frozen heart and locket aren't situational. Iceborn can also be built on pretty much any tank. As for ad, there's not an ad melee champion out there that doesn't benefit from cleaver, youmous is great on every damage dealing ad, not just assassins, Death's Dance is pretty great on all adc and some melee. My point here is you can easily and viably get full cdr without dipping into runes or blue buff on every class except mages.

NostolgicSkiesNov 14, 20151 votes

if there gonna say they are pushing crit then i say give mages a new item with cdr and a chance for spells to crit

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