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Ivern is COMPLETELY BUSTED

LaughingStapler··61 votes·5,732 views

You can be bad as hell on him but his usefulness will always be unparalleled. He's a Nunu-Janna demon child who walks up to your camps and takes them right in front of you when invading. You can't even outsmite him. It's actually hard to be truly bad on Ivern and his average winrate is the highest of ANY CHAMPION IN THE GAME REGARDLESS OF ROLE at 56%+. Experienced players even in DIamond 1+ maintain nearly 60% winrates. The champion is STRAIGHT BUSTED by EVERY METRIC and it's not like his playrate is so small for that to be the reason for these obscene statistics. This has been the case CONSISTENTLY for multiple patches and it's unacceptable for a champion with a >5% playrate. People don't see him one shot anyone like Rengar can so they don't understand how much subtle power he has. His kit is actually insanely overloaded and safe while suffocating the rest of the JG landscape besides a handful of picks.

This is NOT OK Riot. Even if it's not an assassin with a lot of burst damage, it is NOT fine for a champion to be this powerful for a team. Every metric suggests he's broken so what are you waiting for? He's even more dominant by all objective assessments than Graves.

89 Comments

Bârd20 votes

Ivern can't "walk up and take your camps right in front of you".

Taking damage interrupts his channel.

Don't try to lie about basic facts.

koochario3 votes

That's false. I've seen it many times. The enemy jg autoing Ivern and he still steals their camp. What you probably mean is hard CC but even then, he can just go right back to taking it.

japhib3 votes

Maybe that's a bug for you because whenever I play Ivern and take damage from an enemy while channeling to make the "grove", the channel is cancelled. Or maybe you're thinking of him "setting free" the camp after he's already made the grove, or smiting it, which can't get interrupted.

greekvandaL3 votes

go watch faker playing Ivern in youtube. he has 0 clue on how to play him yet he dominates with him.

skyskee00816 votes

He also first times Kled in ranked and dominates. Cmon don't bring Faker into a discussion between mere humans

Mig894 votes

lol. upvoted because im a mere human

greekvandaL1 votes

so all other high challenger koreans are trash huh? explains why faker has a 50 to 60 % winrate then. If he was THAT MUCH SUPERIOR he would have like 70% winrate and be rank 1 all year long. Yes i can bring him into discussion when you can randomly play a champion and do well on it with people on your skill lvl something is wrong with the champion.

Glory ln Death2 votes

Faker is handicapped when he plays, though. He has 4 mere humans on his team.

Karn Bishop1 votes

Heres the problem i have, i want to challenge the buff during his channel but he has his allies ward the one buff then he wards the other, whichever camp i start i lose the other one, and i can't make my laners just sit at my second buff until i finish with my first one, so whats my options here? the only solution i can think of is let top leash me and let mid and bot take my other camp because i wont get it either way.

Troll for Trump19 votes

He's pure utility and not damage.

Sound familiar? Janna Soraka

These champs will always be good, because utility isn't ever bad. It's always neutral, so those champs will have relatively consistent, high winrates. The only way to nerf them is by nerfing their utility, either straight out, or making the utility have a lower base % and making it scale off AP/AD, to make them feast/famine(like Lulu).

Papa Andrei4 votes

And they are the most balanced in the game. Ironic lol

koochario13 votes

Both have had (arguably do have) major balance issues. I don't know what you're talking about.

Narasimha3 votes

It's... a bit debatable. They are strong, but all their strength can only be pulled out through their allies. They're really only as strong as the people they are working with.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

You can argue against that too, though. Yes, enchanters mostly rely on their allies and are not able to do anything alone, meaning they need someone nearby to function.

But look at Janna, for example. One of her main strengths is to fix the mistakes of her allies. So basically, she is not that relying on good allies. Because she is able to undo the mistakes these allies made by having the best team wide disengage in the entire game.

Being able to undo mistakes from your random allies is a great strength in SoloQ, which explains her high winrate. Janna is able to pull up bad team mates to decent ones.

New Tool Album5 votes

Soraka oh my god you should have been here for her mid lane escapades lol, i think she has the most nerfs or buffs out of all the champions in the game

Troll for Trump2 votes

Pre-rework raka was fun tho

IceKingChernobog2 votes

[{quoted}](name=a naked tree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8tE1QKAR,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-03-09T04:48:41.860+0000)

Soraka oh my god you should have been here for her mid lane escapades lol, i think she has the most nerfs or buffs out of all the champions in the game

Lets not forget, top lane tankraka.

Shadòw6 votes

Janna on 53%-55% winrate with 20% playrate for like 20 patches now

"Balanced" hahahahahahaha

Weissritter4 votes

I am pretty sure Janna has consistently had one of the highest win rates in the game since at least season 3. There are only a couple of short periods iirc where it dropped lol

Dolasaur1 votes

Her skill floor is pretty low, near the bottom for supports. Even if every champion was perfectly balanced for the plat-dia range Riot targets, her win rate would still be over 50%, just due to the number of people playing Thresh, band wagoning Miss Fortune or Malzahar before understanding their strengths and weaknesses, etc.

Shadòw1 votes

her skill floor is not near the bottom of supports, it's actually the lowest in the game.

it's that kind of champion that you can pick up first time in Ranked and get away with it because there literally is nothing that you need to learn.

and that's exactly the problem of the champion. you could literally write a script that does the job of the player. i mean, they changed Soraka so you have to actually have to interact with your enemies instead of just sitting behind your carry. but that's exactly what Janna is doing and she actually gets away with that. her whole playstyle is just so passive and easy that every bot could replace any human player and still do a more or less decent job.

Dolasaur1 votes

That's your opinion on her design though, not of her power level, which is what comments about a champion being "balanced" usually indicates.

Shadòw1 votes

problem is that she is way too strong for the fact that she literally doesn't have to trade/interact with her opponents at all.

Tusutaki1 votes

Soraka is a straight up healer and Janna is a peeler. Ivern is both those things and then some.

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

Ivern can't heal allies with his kit as is.

FreeVolibear2 votes

Neither can Blitzcrank Braum Leona, or Nautilus. But items like item 3302 and item 3107 can help those kits if they want to add healing to their utility. His stun, shield, tank, and bush push make him utility af though.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Ivern can't heal, and soraka's meant solely for heals.

Janna is meant only for peels.

Ivern's a mix of both, amongst other things.

A proper comparison would be with bard.

It's like a spectrum:

Good heal- Soraka Meh Heal, Meh Peel - Bard Good Peel- Janna

Fisher No Chains6 votes

I'd rather fight against 10 Iverns than fighting 1 cancerous Shaco with 55.55% winrate in plat+ and 10%+ playrate. But hey, the rework gutted him. :((((((

Seriously, they just need to fix the jungle. It's just the most impactful role in the whole game.

Shadòw8 votes

The time after shaco rework where every shaco main called him gutted.

Then he climbed to 55% winrate and they were complaining about the nerfs.

Honestly, Shaco mains are the worst. They instantly cry when their busted shit champion isn't broken anymore. Problem: he will always be broken.

Wet Dryman3 votes

Have you read any of those posts or just saw the titles that Shaco is gutted and didn't even read what's inside? After his rework people were crying because AP Shaco was busted as hell while AD Shaco was literally trash (AP 55% win rate AD 46%-47%) and then Riot nerfed AP Shaco on few ocassions and fixed AD Shaco bugs and scallings and in combination with new lethality made his AD oriented builds skyrocket in win rate.

Always broken? Before his rework he had from 48% to 51% win rate as far as I remember which lasted like that since his nerfs in season 3. He wasn't broken back then at all but now he certainly is and needs some serious changes.

Shadòw1 votes

broken isn't OP.

he is just so cheesy and that kind of champion that i don't want to see in any of my games.

Wet Dryman1 votes

How is being cheesy a broken thing? Cheese tactics are easy to play around as their power comes only from ignorance of enemies (good example is Sion's lvl 1 execution and buff stealing with passive). Element of surprise, nothing more. Shaco is heavily countered by good vision and counterganks. He wants to cheese with his little level 2 invade on your red buff? It's rather obvious just bring your midlaner and catch him as his Q has long CD and lasts only for 1,5 seconds at rank 1. Death hurts him so bad and that will slow down his snowballing and gank rate also leaving him even more vulnerable when you catch him in his own jungle. You don't want your laners to get caught by him? Predicting enemy jungle routes and counterganking is a thing as that leaves him extremely vulnerable and those are things that junglers should learn ASAP anyway.

Shadòw3 votes

bringing your midlaner is easier said than done in soloq

also his invisibility is simply too long and he has a blink on top of that with his Q.

to counter that you need deep wards or need to know his position, which also needs good communication and coordination of the team to not get caught.

exactly that makes him cancer to play against in soloq.

when you have a coordinated premade team he is easy to counter, but in soloq you don't have that.

Wacky95 votes

The reason Ivern has a low playrate, is that Ivern has weak ganks if you aren't ganking someone good. His stun-shield combo is excellent, but only if your team isn't crap. Plus the skill ceiling on Ivern is insanely high. You have to be really good at Ivern to get a 56% winrate.

P.S. Anytime you play Ivern type "I AM GROOT!" into the /all chat.

ofart11 votes

{quoted}

The reason Ivern has a low playrate, is that Ivern has weak ganks if you aren't ganking someone good. His stun-shield combo is excellent, but only if your team isn't crap. Plus the skill ceiling on Ivern is insanely high. You have to be really good at Ivern to get a 56% winrate.

P.S. Anytime you play Ivern type "I AM GROOT!" into the /all chat.

Yeah, you have to be so good at Ivern to get a 56% winrate that it's actually his average winrate. It's so hard to be average! Ivern does have a high skill ceiling but you don't have to do much to outclass other junglers as far as game influence. I think Riot wants to encourage us to play more team oriented and so they leave champions like Ivern massively overtuned.

Wacky93 votes

Except you already said that Ivern has a less than 5% playrate. So the few people who do play Ivern are really really good at him.

ofart7 votes

{quoted}

Except you already said that Ivern has a less than 5% playrate. So the few people who do play Ivern are really really good at him.

He does not. He has a nearly 7% playrate. Moreover, there are many junglers with way lower playrates and they don't magically have absurd winrates (even for those with a ton of games). Look at Fiddlesticks for example. Very low playrate. Insanely high average games. Still mediocre winrate. This is Ivern, not anything else.

Eedat3 votes

You have to be really good at Ivern to get a 56% winrate.

WR by games played says otherwise

http://beta.champion.gg/champion/Ivern/Jungle

Nameless Voice4 votes

My main issue with Ivern is that he can just walk in and steal your camps, almost instantly, even from level 1. No other jungler can do that.

If I am playing against Ivern, I am guaranteed to have one of my first buffs stolen, and fairly certain to have a fair number of my others stolen throughout the game.

Other junglers have to at least risk spending a fair amount of their time in your jungle to steal your camps, but not Ivern.

Effectively having most of your power as a jungler taken away because someone can freely steal your camps from the very start of the game is not fun. Even facing a Nunu (and when Nunu was a stronger / meta pick) feels much fairer than this guy.

Karn Bishop1 votes

agreed, personally i think it would be fine if they coded it so groves on the enemy side of jungle can be challenged so long as jungler is within 1300 units of the camp, one should be rewarded for predicting iverns location.

Glory ln Death3 votes

What if the enemy could Smite a Groved camp and take it for themselves?

Lugg1 votes

That's actually a great idea.

LaughingStapler2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8tE1QKAR,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-03-09T20:52:56.680+0000)

What if the enemy could Smite a Groved camp and take it for themselves?

That would feel way more fair and I probably wouldn't have made this thread. :D

Glory ln Death1 votes

Although, it would make Ivern extremely susceptible to being counterjungled. Smite "support" Nunu or others would probably become meta as hard counters to Ivern, and drive him out of play.

greekvandaL2 votes

90%of the playerbase is below plat. aka they dont know how to play the game and they only care about what gets them kills and gets them killed. they dont know how to use such an overloaded pile of shit champ. Just because you dont have insane dmg doesnt mean you are not overloaded. i've cried out loud about Ivern beeing probably the second worst champ design second to Evelyn but oh well who cares. when 1000's goldies watch the post and only a few actually decent players aka the ones who actually upvoted the threads it doesnt matter.

warpenguin5552 votes

Which is why I'm using him to climb.

The Real Mugatu2 votes

As someone who has played Ivern since his release I agree he is incredibly strong, but I disagree with the statement that even if you are terrible on him he is still useful. His gameplay is incredibly nuanced and relies on having experience SPECIFICALLY WITH IVERN in order to path properly.

For all of the people who say "he can just walk up and take my camps and I can't do anything about it!" Are you aware that simply TAKING DAMAGE STOPS THE CHANNEL?? Literally 1 auto or any ability will stop him from channeling. On top of this HE CAN'T STOP YOU FROM INVADING HIM. He is unable to smite a camp that he has not marked and thus if you are taking away his camps and he catches you THERE IS NOTHING HE CAN DO SHORT OF KILL YOU - and have I mentioned how low his damage output it? Literally does Soraka levels of damage and whilst being in the middle of every team fight.

skyskee0081 votes

I think a lot of his power is actually in the items he's able to build with ACTUAL INCOME unlike a support. Such as Athens Grail + redemption give him pretty good healing. His shield slow DOESNT EXPIRE even if you take off the shield, making him have ridiculous peel.

Also Daisy is another problem: it provides a "front line" in a meta where everyone wants to play a carry.

So the thing is... he's not a mix of Janna and Nunu, with Daisy he's literally both at the same time (Jannas peel and shields, Nunus worthless damage soaking frontline (Daisy) and objective control with brushes.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

You are seriously overestimating Daisy's durability.

yingwhy1 votes

It's too bad that Daisy's AI is garbage

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