I would bet that Villainy makes Garen more "oppressive" than his Q damage

Moody P·Aug 30, 2018·13 votes·7,304 views

And that if you want to address his strength, for low ELO in particular, you should start with this, because Villainy is such a huge comfort mechanic for low level players that, even when the Garen player is playing poorly, he is basically never out of the game. Given that most people who become Villain marked will have at least 2 kills under their belt, and the fact that you are basically not allowed to be near Garen if you're marked or you'll just die, Garen tends to end up getting a lot of shutdown, counter-snowball gold off of what tends to feel like an unfair situation, e.g. Garen was on me for 2 seconds and true-damaged me into the grave.

I'm suggesting this as a long-time Garen player, because Villainy is an overlooked mechanic that keeps me relevant even in games where I'm counter picked or otherwise heavily set back. Reducing its potency might do well to curb his power without making him feel too much worse.

32 Comments

RagnaveilAug 30, 20187 votes

I'd honestly say he should take less damage from the villain, and the ult keeps the indicator but remains magic damage, making him be able to duel the person marked, but not massively overpower them.

Or, same thing (maybe a little weaker) but the ult loses some base damage all ranks and the missing hp ratio gets somewhat lowered all ranks, but the ult then becomes true damage regardless of them being villain or not.

Both of these mean that the "bonus" damage he gets against the villain is removed.

I'd say the second one has more potential to reward high elo and punish low elo. Could be wrong. I know people like the fact his ult feels much better to use when its true damage because of villain, but with that also comes the issue because that true damage is massive in the late game. If a carry isn't careful or someone tries to 1v1 him, he could end them pretty quick with little effort.

"each spin of Judgment (E) against the Villain deal 1% of their maximum health as bonus true damage on-hit" <- This right here is also an issue.

Frosted TipsAug 30, 20186 votes

Honestly they need to remove this mechanic it is legit bullshit. It is my main problem with him. There should not be a villain mechanic because a player doing well should not be punished for doing well.

OnandagaAug 30, 20186 votes

If they want to keep the villian gimmick I think they should scrap the extra damage from it and replace it with an AoE buff that provides extra movement speed and resistances for executing the villian. It would better line with up with Garen's theme as a couragous and inspiring frontline warrior instead of a vengeful assassin like the current villian mechanic functions as.

ReohareAug 30, 20182 votes

The ideal nerf for low ELO imo is to nerf his passive. Garen doesn't get punished enough if he's playing badly in lane, he gets to rest under tower and re-engage with full hp. This safety net it's what makes the champ so annoying for me, especially if you're playing a tank against him, you just know you won't kill him in lane if he decides to stay safe.

Critmaster GarenAug 30, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The ideal nerf for low ELO

nobody shouldnt even attempt to nerf for low elo.

if you want to climb, you need to practise the matchup and get better at the game. the idea that the game is made easier for you in specific and effectively trashes the champion for high mmr is completely backwards.

its not the game that needs to change, its your play that needs to improve.

apparantly dota2 doesnt give a shit about low mmr and just balances the game for high mmr and expects players to figure out the game for themselves. if riot copies anything from other mobas, it should be this attitude.

ReohareAug 30, 20182 votes

It was purely hypothetical, and even if i agree with you, sometimes they do balance low elo stompers (like garen and yorick) in recent patches.

Rember that Garen is still a 450 BE champ, his mechanics should be easy to pick up without stomping other beginners. As you learn the game, it's easy to exploit a champ weakness and play around it, but it doesn't mean that is healthy for the game or fun for the opponent.

I'm not saying the game should be balanced around lower ELO's. I was pointing out a specific trait i found annoying about Garen, and what could be done so he isn't so opressive. That is not the Villain mark as OP suggested.

It's like Yi, in higher ELO everyone knows how to play around him, but that doesn't mean has to be opressive for the majority of the playerbase. There has to be a middle ground, called balance.

Critmaster GarenAug 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It was purely hypothetical, and even if i agree with you, sometimes they do balance low elo stompers (like garen and yorick) in recent patches.

Rember that Garen is still a 450 BE champ, his mechanics should be easy to pick up without stomping other beginners. As you learn the game, it's easy to exploit a champ weakness and play around it, but it doesn't mean that is healthy for the game or fun for the opponent.

I'm not saying the game should be balanced around lower ELO's. I was pointing out a specific trait i found annoying about Garen, and what could be done so he isn't so opressive. That is not the Villain mark as OP suggested.

It's like Yi, in higher ELO everyone knows how to play around him, but that doesn't mean has to be opressive for the majority of the playerbase. There has to be a middle ground, called balance.

the reason why these champions stomp low mmr is exactly because theyre easy to pick up and understand (low skill floor).

a low mmr player who picks up a complex mechanical champion like azir or ryze is more busy trying to control and understand the champion than the annie or garen theyre playing against, so they wont perform well at any strategic aspects of the game until they have 100's of games played on these champions and begin to understand their mechanics.

this is simple logic, and buffs and nerfs wont change that.

ReohareAug 30, 20182 votes

If they are easy to understand for the player they are for opponent too. Azir is complicated as for the first time player as for the opponent. That doesn't make a champ stomp, balance does. Like Mundo is an easy champ, with simple mechanics and busted numbers, that's why he's meta.

Your opinion may be clouded because you're a dedicated main. But number balance on simple kits changes everything.

Critmaster GarenAug 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If they are easy to understand for the player they are for opponent too.

yes.

but in a matchup between a bronze azir and a bronze garen, who do you think is going to make constant mistakes and even going to struggle to cs?

the garen can more easily focus on learning the basic aspects of the game. the azir is going to constantly waste his cooldowns and mistep, and make mechanical mistakes which the garen is going to punish.

imagine a race between a muscle car with manual transmission and a family van with automatic.

put drivers behind both cars who never learned to drive with stick. who would you bet is going to win the race and whos going to constanly choke the engine while trying to figure out how to switch gears?

even though the muscle car should win, im pretty sure the van would cross the finish line first because automatic is easier to pick up and use, and the guy can just focus on the road.

ReohareAug 30, 20181 votes

In what universe does Azir lane aganist Garen?

You missed completely my point.

Every new player should focus on the basics regardless of the champ he's using.

And still Azir is still a bad example and he should not be picked in ranked without many games on him.

Still in your example once you know how to drive the better car, you'll be faster. But if you give a jet engine to the van it's going to infinity and beyond, even with a stick. (And that in balance terms means numbers).

I feel this will become an infinite discussion and lead nowhere. Nonetheless i respect your opinion.

Have a good day man! GL in ranked!

Critmaster GarenAug 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

In what universe does Azir lane aganist Garen?

You missed completely my point.

i mean? same at you?

the point wasnt the two champions in specific, but to illustrate a mechanical complex champion vs. a mechanical simple champion in the hands of two bad players.

Every new player should focus on the basics regardless of the champ he's using.

garen might be simple and straight forward to outplay for a bad player whos playing a simple champion himself. not when hes playing a complex champion and handicaps himself.

learning the games basics just isnt as easily possible, if you play a champion who has a complex mechanical kit as a new player, youre more busy trying to figure out how your champion works, than the enemy whos playing a simple champion.

youre going to make constant mechanical and strategic mistakes. far more than your opponent does.

i mean the evidence is right here infront of you. garen has never seen competitive play, because is easy to outplay for his opponents. as you said, very straight forward. even at his strongest ovevr the past couple of weeks, he was never an overpowered champion or meta pick/ban past diamond. so obviously he couldnt have been overtuned in the hands of good players.

but hes always been a champion who stomps low mmr, because people down there dont have the game knowledge and practise to deal with him despite his simple and straight forward kit.

at the same time champions like yasuo, zed and other similar edgelord champions who arent as easy to pick up are quite popular down there. they get their ass kicked by garens who dont have to invest half their focus into trying to make their champions work.

Tychusfindlay918Aug 30, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The ideal nerf for low ELO imo is to nerf his passive. Garen doesn't get punished enough if he's playing badly in lane, he gets to rest under tower and re-engage with full hp. This safety net it's what makes the champ so annoying for me, especially if you're playing a tank against him, you just know you won't kill him in lane if he decides to stay safe.

Nerf his passive? His passive is the most counterproductive piece of shit in his kit, and it doesn't even really come online until level 11.

There ISN'T A SINGLE FUCKING JUGGERNAUT IN THE GAME with a passive that rewards you for running away and not interacting with opponents.

ReohareAug 30, 20181 votes

Whoa, calm the caps lock there bud, i'm not on the balance team, you don't need to get agressive.

Nasus is a juggernaut? His passive rewards him for a passive early game to stack.

Tychusfindlay918Aug 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Whoa, calm the caps lock there bud, i'm not on the balance team, you don't need to get agressive.

Nasus is a juggernaut? His passive rewards him for a passive early game to stack.

Not true, nasus's passive rewards him for hitting shit, whether it's minions or champions.

ReohareAug 31, 20181 votes

Yeah, i see plenty of Nasus players engage without stacks just to lifesteal from enemies.

You know the passive gives him a way to sustain through laning fase and stack as much as he can. At least on the early game.

If you claim otherwise is just for the sake of proving me wrong.

d9u7c1anhAug 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, i see plenty of Nasus players engage without stacks just to lifesteal from enemies.

You know the passive gives him a way to sustain through laning fase and stack as much as he can. At least on the early game.

If you claim otherwise is just for the sake of proving me wrong.

"Fighters are durable and damage-focused melee champions that look to be in the thick of combat. Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility." Nasus is a Juggernaut if you followed those line cause there is no part that say they should be strong early

ReohareAug 31, 20181 votes

No one said that he should be strong early, i said that his passive rewards him for not engaging in fights early game.

I responded to the comment "that no juggernaut has a passive that rewards you for running and not interacting with the opponent".

Nasus is the perfect example of "i don't care about killing you, let me stack" and his passive lets him sustain through that.

Saying otherwise is delusional.

d9u7c1anhAug 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No one said that he should be strong early, i said that his passive rewards him for not engaging in fights early game.

I responded to the comment "that no juggernaut has a passive that rewards you for running and not interacting with the opponent".

Nasus is the perfect example of "i don't care about killing you, let me stack" and his passive lets him sustain through that.

Saying otherwise is delusional.

Yes but Nasus passive alone (notice i only talk about the passive) could help him heal when he fighting which other champions (Nasus do not do that cause other part of his kit make him suck at fighting early), Garen 100% don't. Not to mention that the passive mean that he need to get to the minnion (or fight other champ) to get the healing and get in range of the enemy (aka not run away ) while Garen just 100% run away and wait. In short, Nasus's passive allow him to interact with other champion and still have use while Garen can not interact with other champ if he want to use the passive.

ReohareAug 31, 20181 votes

Yeah i understand the point and agree on Garen. I'm just used to see Nasus using his passive, while Q-W the enemy champ just to get the healing off and then run away (if he's "forced" to trade). That to me rewards him for a passive laning phase where trading doesn't matter to him, making it not so interactive for the opponent, while he sits under his tower and stacks.

Edit: Nasus is one of my most used champs, but i didn't play him in a long time. This post is inspiring me to get back to my main.

d9u7c1anhAug 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah i understand the point and agree on Garen. I'm just used to see Nasus using his passive, while Q-W the enemy champ just to get the healing off and then run away (if he's "forced" to trade). That to me rewards him for a passive laning phase where trading doesn't matter to him, making it not so interactive for the opponent, while he sits under his tower and stacks.

well that because of Nasus's kit (mostly his Q) and stat that force him to play passive or he would get destroy. Give that same passive for champ that have lane bully's kit and stat (you can see that with pre nerf Aatrox) then that champ would love to interact with other.

Tychusfindlay918Sep 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah i understand the point and agree on Garen. I'm just used to see Nasus using his passive, while Q-W the enemy champ just to get the healing off and then run away (if he's "forced" to trade). That to me rewards him for a passive laning phase where trading doesn't matter to him, making it not so interactive for the opponent, while he sits under his tower and stacks.

Edit: Nasus is one of my most used champs, but i didn't play him in a long time. This post is inspiring me to get back to my main.

Right but your logic flawed, his passive doesn't reward him for interacting little in lane, the scaling methods inherent in his siphon strike are what reward him for playing like a bitch early game.

ZephyrDrakeAug 31, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nerf his passive? His passive is the most counterproductive piece of shit in his kit, and it doesn't even really come online until level 11.

There ISN'T A SINGLE FUCKING JUGGERNAUT IN THE GAME with a passive that rewards you for running away and not interacting with opponents.

So what you are telling me is that if something reaches 99% winrate at low elos only we shouldn't do anything about it? That's a really good way of losing most of your playerbase in no time at all

Critmaster GarenAug 31, 20183 votes

{quoted}

So what you are telling me is that if something reaches 99% winrate at low elos only we shouldn't do anything about it? That's a really good way of losing most of your playerbase in no time at all

sucks to be those guys i guess. they can still ban the champion if theyre too bad at playing against him.

so yes, fuck low elo. they need to improve. the game doesnt need to be balanced around them.

in any case, your example is complete hyperbole. garens winrate was like 55% in low elo, and something id call acceptable for that mmr. thats nowhere near as broken as many people make it seem. same for yorick.

Tychusfindlay918Aug 31, 20182 votes

{quoted}

So what you are telling me is that if something reaches 99% winrate at low elos only we shouldn't do anything about it? That's a really good way of losing most of your playerbase in no time at all

Do we dumb down soccer or football or golf or anything like that for amateurs? No.

Are they still popular? Yes.

The way we equalize it is by having people of similar skill face each other, not by dumbing down the game itself.

Of course there's the gigantic issue of smurfing, but that's a different discussion.

The Yetii RiderAug 30, 20181 votes

The Villainy mechanic was basically the ONLY thing that the Garen rework gave us. it is an attempt to make Garen relevant and give him comeback potential. If Garen loses the Villainy mechanic, what does he have left to offer his team? % armor shred on whomever he can get to? That's...not a lot.

Anin777Aug 30, 20181 votes

Make 50% of his dmg against villains deal 50% true dmg instead of 100%. That's a start.

CarnicoreAug 31, 20181 votes

I would bet that you're wrong. Garen usually crushes lane without any help at all from his villain mechanic, and doesn't need it to burst carries with Triforce either. With or without Villainy, he was too strong.

Moody PAug 31, 20181 votes

Losing lane to Garen is a you problem.

ModAcademy KaynAug 31, 20181 votes

Losing lane to Garen is a "GAREN BEING TOO STRONG" problem, as of the moment. Even after the nerfs, his global winrate is still 53%, especially in low elo.

Moody PAug 31, 20181 votes

The only thing that lets Garen win lane is ignorance. He still shouldn't be beating most champs, especially if they're good duelists, and you can see this plainly in high elo Garen gameplay that they're playing for a mid-game comeback and not early snowballing.

BlytedAug 31, 20181 votes

The villain "mechanic" does suck, but it's the sum of his kit that makes Garen a low elo terrorist.

Passive: Pseudo Warmogs Q: Nerfed a bit still a pseudo QSS (slows) W: Pseudo Stoneplate w/o damage reduction trade off E: Pseudo Black Cleaver R: On non villain its not too bad. On villain it is basically a champion smite

^Look at all that free shit Garen gets from his kit

I will concede that he isn't broken OP merely annoying, but still c'mon man.

d9u7c1anhAug 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The villain "mechanic" does suck, but it's the sum of his kit that makes Garen a low elo terrorist.

Passive: Pseudo Warmogs Q: Nerfed a bit still a pseudo QSS (slows) W: Pseudo Stoneplate w/o damage reduction trade off E: Pseudo Black Cleaver R: On non villain its not too bad. On villain it is basically a champion smite

^Look at all that free shit Garen gets from his kit

I will concede that he isn't broken OP merely annoying, but still c'mon man.

Are we really doing this? With your logic: -Nasus: Passive: Pseudo life steal iteam. Q: Unlimited attack damage item. W: Pseudo slow item (like Rylai) R: Pseudo sunfire cape (with magic resit). -Darius: Passive: Pseudo AD haunting guise (cause it increase Darius's damage if he stay in combat which a champion). Q: Pseudo healing item. W: Pseudo slow item. E: Pseudo slow item and amor pen item. R: non stack is not bad but if he have stack then it is a champion's smite that can recast if kill. And i can go on and on, point is that every champ have free shit in their kit.