A reminder that CertainlyT DIDN'T make Azir, Tahm, Kindred, Ekko etc.

MealReadytoEat·Oct 27, 2015·65 votes·5,612 views

Sure, Certainly T has made some overloaded, nearly impossible to balance kits before (cough cough Kalista), but he hardly has a monopoly on multiple passive, convoluted scalings, and walls of text for ability descriptions.

Really, the main trend for overloaded champions is that they are recent. Lets face it, as Riot is slowing down champion releases, they are trying to cram as many cool ideas as they can into each one.

And lets be honest. Everything he's made is fun to play and feels REALLY impactful, and I'd even say Thresh is very well balanced and healthy!

201 Comments

Malicious MetalOct 27, 201539 votes

I never considered him a bad designer, no. Still, i hold a grudge against him due to how he handled Morde. Let's hope he gets fixed in the preseason.

JbelsOct 27, 201525 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8sG6hhxI,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-10-27T10:33:08.195+0000)

I never considered him a bad designer, no. Still, i hold a grudge against him due to how he handled Morde. Let's hope he gets fixed in the preseason.

Handled it? You mean did whatever he wanted while ignorring the mordekaiser mains because fuck you I'm certainlyfuckingT?

Malicious MetalOct 27, 20155 votes

Yeah, pretty much "Mis"handled. >_>

JbelsOct 27, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8sG6hhxI,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-10-27T19:46:45.468+0000)

Yeah, pretty much "Mis"handled. >_>

Congrats on Iron Revenant though

JbelsOct 27, 201538 votes

And lets be honest. Everything he's made is fun and feels REALLY impactful

Not to play against

LauchmelderOct 27, 20153 votes

Tbh the only thing that isn't fun to play against is a Tahm Kench (note: not fun to play against no matter the situation. A fed Rengar is stupid, but he had to get to that point)

Most people complain about Thresh as one of his creations, but they mostly miss the point. What can be done if you stand on the lantern or place a pink on it? What can be done against his hooks or ult? It's less about him being overloaded, it's more about needing an idea on how to play against him.

Don't hate me if I say this, but I main Thresh. I know his weaknesses and he doesn't have a lot. BUT if the enemy knows how to not get hooked I am only peeling my own carries as I have no chance to engage. Yes, the lantern might be borderline OP, but it has counterplay. The same applies to his other skills.

What is Thresh btw? A ranged champion with a semi-ranged skillset? (legit question, no troll)

DarkSunSovereignOct 27, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8sG6hhxI,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-10-27T17:40:49.749+0000)

Tbh the only thing that isn't fun to play against is a Tahm Kench

Know what Yasuo is?

IntakiNineOct 27, 20153 votes

A currently subpar midlaner with some of the lowest base stats in the game?

NineTailedMysticOct 28, 201510 votes

With one of the most infuriating kits for common mid laners?

A Miss FortuneOct 27, 201520 votes

Honestly even CertainlyT making unique/fun champions is 100% arguable. If CertainlyT can't make a balanced and healthy champion without overloading their kits absolutely then that would be awesome, but he like most designers are constantly producing toxic champions who have severe balance issues. I think in general the entire champion design team needs to be totally changed and issues with all of the recent champions need to be dealt with like nearly every release coming with at least one - infinite dashes or a boring and somewhat toxic 3-hit-2-win feature that nobody likes. It's not just CertainlyT producing trash designs.

Fiora Gangplank Darius Garen Skarner Ekko TahmKench Kindred RekSai Kalista Azir

All being some of the most recent releases aside from Bard who's probably the only champion on this list who isn't overpowered.

JasiwelOct 27, 20157 votes

I disagree with Kindred being in this group because you can't pick her into every game and do amazing. If you pick her into a Vi or J4, for example, that know what they're doing, you're going to be spending more time dead or running away trying to not die than fighting. Kindred also isn't that overloaded - I think the only instance where it feels that way are with her sustain from Wolf and her passive.

Kindred was also just released a week ago. I'd give the champion another one or two weeks before calling her outright OP. Most people prefer to ban new champions than learn how to play against them anyways. That said, I do foresee some possible nerfs in the future, mostly directed at her sustain and Q.

A Miss FortuneOct 27, 20154 votes

Actually I don't like Kindred for 2 reasons.

-Her dashes are stupid. Honestly this would probably be the best game I've ever played if every champion didn't have mobility. Mobility in this game went from something unique a champion had to something a champion MUST have to be remotely viable. Imagine if my main, Miss Fortune, had a dash. She would skyrocket to pick-or-ban like she was on release since mobility is the part where she sucks so bad at and probably one if not the only things Miss Fortune sucks at, but the fact that mobility is so mandatory is sad. Look at Lucian, he's utter garbage. Low range, trashy poke, none of his abilities do damage until you're really far ahead, and he doesn't do anything any other ADC can't do, HOWEVER he was played in the LCS a ton because of his dash and MS buff. Even though Lucian lost like 95% of his games in competitive play, he was still a common pick SOLELY because he had mobility. (Sorry didn't mean to make this one long)

-She has a 3-hit-2-win thing. It's really old and while it can be balanced It's boring and repetitive now (Ekko, Tahm, then we have Vayne who's constantly played every other game)

I just find that Kindred's poorly designed. Nothing but recycled features into one. There's some interesting and unique things like Wolf's interaction and her ult but still, most of her kit isn't unique by any means.

KING OF MASKSOct 27, 20154 votes

Garen is not and was not "overpowered"... he was strong -- mostly due to the new Juggernaut items -- and rito took the nerf scalpel to his most vulnerable stat (movement speed). Now he's relatively fine.

A Miss FortuneOct 27, 20153 votes

Garen actually before the rework was exceptionally strong, but no one would believe me if I didn't say he was just meh. He was able to build 5/6 tank items and be fairly mobile, nearly immune to CC with the right masteries/elixir of iron, nearly immune to damage with all of his base stats and 20% extra bonus AR/MR, and of course more damage.

Right now Garen is fine but I think he's really counterfun with his kit being SO simple and half of it being simply stat modifiers. I think Garen needs to be actually reworked into something identical, he's literally a faceroll champion and while he isn't overpowered now he's not healthy. I think starter champions like Annie should exist in that case of argument but they shouldn't be Tryndamere-tier where low in skill. Not only do these types of champions offer less counterplay but they also offer less ways to outplay you. Garen's biggest way for example to outplay you is to ult you maybe and you flash away by accident and die? Yet at the same time the biggest counterplay to him is the old school "just kite him".

KING OF MASKSOct 27, 20154 votes

I mained Garen before 5.16 and I have to disagree with nearly everything you're saying. Garen was never "immune to CC" -- it was his greatest weakness, at nearly every stage of the game. Yes, he could become incredibly tanky, and he only needed one damage item to annihilate squishies; but he had and has only one gapcloser, and a very poor one at that. His ability to get kited is legendary; a smart Garen will wait until he's targeted with CC to pop Q, but then nothing is stopping more slows from being piled on top of him, completely shutting down his gapclose. Not only that but he brings almost nothing to a teamfight.

I haven't played as many post-rework Garen games as I would like, so I won't comment on how he performs now; but from what I can tell he functions basically the same.

But seriously, you are so wrong about Garen. Yes, he's a faceroll champion, but that's what he is meant to be. Garen is about brute forcing your way into the enemy's composition, going hard as a motherfucker 24/7. That is his essence, his lifeblood. I don't even give a damn whether or not it's healthy, because the fact is that it's fun; it's so refreshing to have a champion that doesn't rely on Korean-tier mechanics or even all that much strategic decision-making, but instead on having the courage to dive balls deep and win through attrition. There is nothing wrong with simple champions; in fact, simplicity is the key to brilliance. There is more to this game than making plays, you know.

Dar RaksadaOct 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8sG6hhxI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-10-27T10:32:32.371+0000)

Honestly even CertainlyT making unique/fun champions is 100% arguable. If CertainlyT can't make a balanced and healthy champion without overloading their kits absolutely then that would be awesome, but he like most designers are constantly producing toxic champions who have severe balance issues. I think in general the entire champion design team needs to be totally changed and issues with all of the recent champions need to be dealt with like nearly every release coming with at least one - infinite dashes or a boring and somewhat toxic 3-hit-2-win feature that nobody likes. It's not just CertainlyT producing trash designs.

All being some of the most recent releases aside from Bard who's probably the only champion on this list who isn't overpowered.

Fiora got overbuffed, she was considered weak on release (which is why she was buffed)

A Miss FortuneOct 27, 20152 votes

The only thing they did was lower her cooldowns and raise her core base stats though, and that's NOT why she's overpowered/broken or whatever you want to call her. Her problem is that she has more % health true damage than Vayne potentially and defines 0 counterplay with her reposte. Even if she is behind her % health true damage lets her stay VERY relevant, she has multiple slows, and she even potentially has a stun PLUS if whoever she targets dies with her ult on her entire team can get a big heal.

Fiora has some of the most counterplayless things in her kit, can carry games like It's nothing if she does well, but even then she has more than enough utility any carry should ever have.

LankPantsOct 27, 201517 votes

All thumbs are fingers, not all fingers are thumbs.

Every CT champ has been broke as fuck, that doesn't mean there aren't other broken champs and the fact that there are other broken champs doesn't change the fact that he's a horrible designer.

MealReadytoEatOct 27, 20153 votes

I mean, most of the champions have been broken at some point in time. The fact that the 5 champions he made where all OP on release has mostly to do with sample size.

Voluug13Oct 27, 20158 votes

Not really. Yes, Xyph made Riven, but he learned what a bad idea it was and actually admitted it.

CT keeps making the same mistakes (which he doesnt ~~like to~~ think are mistakes), and doesnt want to admit it. None of his designs have been as nerfed and yet still toxic and unfun for everyone to fight against. His champions feel like PvE rpg main characters that fighters designed for a PvP game.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Not really. Yes, Xyph made Riven, but he learned what a bad idea it was and actually admitted it.

CT keeps making the same mistakes (which he doesnt ~~like to~~ think are mistakes), and doesnt want to admit it. None of his designs have been as nerfed and yet still toxic and unfun for everyone to fight against. His champions feel like PvE rpg main characters that fighters designed for a PvP game.

xyph learned from riven? until 2014 he tried to explain why riven wasn't a bad idea, and honestly we can't even be sure that he isn't still thinking on this way.

xyph didn't learn from anything, he continued to nerf bruisers and buff adc. introducing ibg and made ezreal so toxic in 2013 that i wanted to crush my pc. he reworked bork which is still broken and make vayne being 6 sloted at 15 min. He leaded the entier adc patch which was a failur and just made tristana/kog/jinx must pick in 2014.

Voluug13Oct 27, 20153 votes

I remember Xyph admitting Riven was a bad idea. The idea of a fighting game esque champion in the LoL game core isnt balanceable or something like that.

Ironically, IGB was supposed to be a bruiser buff instead of a Ezreal buff, but of course they didnt think people could build Ezreal. In the end they decided to berf IGB instead of making it melee only, but whatever.

BastionKrossOct 27, 201517 votes

CerT isn't the only champion designer that can overload a kit, I agree. But he's the only one that doesn't seem to get the message and consistently overloads his champions. At least with other champion designs the live balance team can tune their numbers and restrain their power when needed (most of the time), and then there's kits like Thresh and Kalista who can't be significantly weakened by a numbers change. They would need things straight up cut from their kit to try and dial them back.

And again, CerT does not have a monopoly over making unfun champions. ( Yorick ) But he is the most consistent for doing so. Other designers realize sooner or later that how fun a champ is to play against is just as important as how fun one is to play as. CerT hasn't seemed to come to grasp with that after years with the company.

CerT also is not the only designer making things that are new to League. Bard makes holes in walls and generates collectible health packs and scales by roaming around. Tahm allows you to transport a teammate across the map. Kindred scales with counterjungling. Gnar has a transformation he has little control over. Reworked GP has his barrel minigame. Reworked Garen has a villain mechanic that he has no control over and that targets only opponents that are getting kills.

CerT could be a good designer if he had another designer lurking over his shoulder, ready to stop him before a kit gets overloaded. He's thoroughly demonstrated that he can't control himself; a bit of restraint would be a huge positive for his designs.

DivewingOct 27, 201515 votes

Threshs problem isnt his balance, its that he is almost THE perfect support. So what reason do you have to pick anything else? Now Riot could bring out better supports, but with thresh being among the best at about 90% of what he does, anything that was completely better than him would be disgusting. What thresh did was hit the quality of supports so high that he was the prime that either should never be reached, or only at the end.

Imagine a footbal player in his 20s who won FIFA. What do you do after that? Everything else pales in comparison. Thresh is the same effect.

MealReadytoEatOct 27, 201511 votes

I don't think thresh is best at what he does, but he is THE generalist pick. Gotta pick a support early? Thresh wont let you down!

That stems from him being so well rounded, not from him being too strong.

FadedpfOct 27, 20155 votes

Thresh wont let you down because he has an answer for literally almost any situation with how his kit is designed. And his stats are very good to make sure he stays top tier.

DivewingOct 27, 20153 votes

yeah it was a bit of an exaggeration, but not much.

SEKAIOct 27, 201512 votes

{quoted}

I don't think thresh is best at what he does, but he is THE generalist pick. Gotta pick a support early? Thresh wont let you down!

That stems from him being so well rounded, not from him being too strong.

Let me give you an analogy to why Thresh is a problem.

Let's say each champ does 4 things max, each mark out of 100 for effectiveness. And ofc the balanced level would be 50% after averaging all 4 categories.

Specialists are people who perhaps perform 1 thing at 100% and rest for around 30%.

Generalists would be having everything at 50%.

Then Thresh is a champ who has everything at 60 to 70%. Sure he may not be the strongest in 1 thing, but overall after average he is still OP as hell.

This is not the exact representation but I recon it's close enough. Many overloaded champs like say Lee are problematic in the same way.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Let me give you an analogy to why Thresh is a problem.

Let's say each champ does 4 things max, each mark out of 100 for effectiveness. And ofc the balanced level would be 50% after averaging all 4 categories.

Specialists are people who perhaps perform 1 thing at 100% and rest for around 30%.

Generalists would be having everything at 50%.

Then Thresh is a champ who has everything at 60 to 70%. Sure he may not be the strongest in 1 thing, but overall after average he is still OP as hell.

sure, thresh can sustain a lane, oh wait he can't

LankPantsOct 27, 20157 votes

item 3302

SEKAIOct 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I think he meant solo lane sustain. Otherwise he would be stupid to bring up that.

LankPantsOct 27, 20156 votes

I think solo lane Thresh is pretty much irrelevant to Thresh's state of balance at least in the current state of the game.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think he meant solo lane sustain. Otherwise he would be stupid to bring up that.

rofl, healing healing 40 hp every 60 seconds

just l2p already i'm tired of arguing with people

LankPantsOct 27, 20153 votes

rofl, healing healing 40 hp every 60 seconds

40 HP every 60 seconds, for 0 mana. It's actually fairly good sustain, other sustain based supports have to invest 80+ mana into a single heal.

You also should upgrade it fairly early, at which point it goes to 50 HP every 30 seconds.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

40 HP every 60 seconds, for 0 mana. It's actually fairly good sustain, other sustain based supports have to invest 80+ mana into a single heal.

You also should upgrade it fairly early, at which point it goes to 50 HP every 30 seconds.

no, 40 hp every 60 seconds even for 0 mana is bad and not a fairly good sustain in 60 seconds every champ has enough mana regen to get back the mana they lost by healing 150 hp

SlytherinUmbreonOct 28, 20152 votes

It's not so bad when you consider it's being given to a champion whose core weakness included a lack of sustain. Also, You do realize that double procing it gives 80 HP and you start with two procs, right? (also, it has two procs. It's not even 40 HP ever 60 seconds.) Soraka 120. Costs 10% of her health... Sona -Varies, but in my experience 40-60 is normal for early game. Costs 80 mana, increasing with level. Nami 65 with a slight AoE. heals the second person for 46.. Costs 70 mana, increasing with level. Bard The Wiki doesn't actually say what the max heal on his shrine is, but if it's cast in a panic situation, it'll heal 30. for 90 mana. I'm just guessing, but the highest thing his mac rank 1 could be is probably 60.

Sona legitimately can't max her heal first because if she does she's just choking herself on it's mana cost. Nami can, but usually wants e more. The only reason why she can is because her other abilities don't really demand to be maxed first the same way Sona's q does. Healing was pretty much the only thing Thresh didn't have in his kit, and Relic shield gave him the second best heal in the game. For no cost. Soraka's the only champion who's healing is legitimately better then Thresh's, and the cost on it is astronomical. -pun intended- AND she doesn't heal two people like Thresh does.

l2p before you tell people to l2p.

Merkel x TsiprasOct 27, 201513 votes

Kalista=One of the most broken champions in the game and not fun at all Morde=I am not gonna even explain.... Thresh=50 nerfs and still broken (and you say he is balanced? lol that why he is always picked in every game..) Yasuo=what ever i am not gonna even explain here ether broken since release.... Darius=Yeahhh.....................................................

Now the game have like 120 champs or more different champ designers have create champs and yeah some of them they did one MISTAKE and create and overloaed champ THAT CAN BE BALANCED after some tune down (Like we see with Azir and Ekko and riot still continue to tune them in the right direction)

Then we have CertainlyT that have make 5 mistakes and more and those champions CANT BE BALANCED because if you nerf them they are useless if you leave them as they are they are broken...

Man this is so much "fun" design and that so "good" balance

KONO RUBICK DAOct 27, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=19902013RIP Kira,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8sG6hhxI,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-10-27T12:29:02.087+0000)

Kalista=One of the most broken champions in the game and not fun at all Morde=I am not gonna even explain.... Thresh=50 nerfs and still broken (and you say he is balanced? lol that why he is always picked in every game..) Yasuo=what ever i am not gonna even explain here ether broken since release.... Darius=Yeahhh.....................................................

Now the game have like 120 champs or more different champ designers have create champs and yeah some of them they did one MISTAKE and create and overloaed champ THAT CAN BE BALANCED after some tune down (Like we see with Azir and Ekko and riot still continue to tune them in the right direction)

Then we have CertainlyT that have make 5 mistakes and more and those champions CANT BE BALANCED because if you nerf them they are useless if you leave them as they are they are broken...

Man this is so much "fun" design and that so "good" balance

compare thresh to the broken tahm atm

who can you call op? thresh has 48% win rate in soloQ while having a high pick rate which allow us to say that bad people play him as well as good people. He has 45% win rate in world, tahm kench has 75% rofl hahahha

tahm kench is retarded, and give you the worst experiance you had in lol, thresh on the other hand has no bonus ms, low range, squishy in early game, and delayed spells (tahm kench'q is nearly instant)

Merkel x TsiprasOct 27, 20159 votes

compare thresh before his nerfs to tahm

OH YEAH

Thresh after 50 nerfs like i say on my original post and he is STILL BROKEN tahm is just a new champion that he still get his tune down to right dierections

OR YOU FORGET THE PRE NERFS THRESH?

Yeah you people really need to think before you talk

MealReadytoEatOct 27, 20154 votes

Oh man, release thresh was OP and had like a 42% win rate. Yea, it took forever for his win rate to climb to his actual strength, and I suspect tahm will do the same.

Merkel x TsiprasOct 27, 20153 votes

yeah and yasuo according to old GD was useless on release and then a week later he hit 100% ban rate and 90% win rate

Yeah i dont talk about the first day he came out but a week later that he was the most broken champion

MealReadytoEatOct 27, 20154 votes

Thresh took months to stabilize though, that's the difference.

EROTIC RAID BOSSOct 27, 20152 votes

Does it matter? He seems balanced now. He's picked a lot because he's fun and versatile, not because he's broken

killd0zerOct 27, 20152 votes

Versitile isn't a magic buzzword, it's literally power. Straight up gameplay power.

Yes picked a lot because he's literally the standard of supports all others must meet or exceed and has been nearly every single day for the last 2-3 years.

GrashnimOct 27, 20157 votes

I am sure Riot has noticed that if champions are OP, more people will pay cash for them. Works in their benefit.

LVL 5 POROOct 27, 20156 votes

Azir isn't broken, toxic, or have an overloaded kit so I don't know why you listed him. I think Tahm is fine but everyone else seems to hate him. Kindred's healing is a bit much but I think she's pretty balanced. Ekko was just flat out broken and OP on launch. I don't know what Rito was thinking.

MealReadytoEatOct 27, 20153 votes

I was listing champions with a large number or skills/unusual abilities. Azir fits that bill. And anyway, Azir IS broken - his skill floor is really low, and his skill ceiling is way too high. He's shit up to master tier, statistically, and is OP in professional 5 v 5's.

LVL 5 POROOct 27, 20151 votes

Your skill ceiling cant be high and low. I will agree that, in the right hands, Azir is a monster. But lets be honest with ourselves, no one below plat or diamond is using him that well. Everyone else gets butchered. Shaving some power off him so his winrate in higher elo goes down is fair, but Riot gutted him. They removed his CC and a lot of his damage. I don't think that was fair, especially when you consider those changes were targeted at about 5% of the player base.