Remember that fighter rework that was mentioned in s2?

HateDaddy··7 votes·394 views

Yeah yeah, you know that one that was supposed to happen in season 3? For some reason it got pushed back to season 4? And then it was mentioned somewhere along these lines that their itemization needed changes and that didn't happen? Yeah I remember.

So what have we had? Some top laners have received pretty insignificant buffs, some decent buffs (Malphite and Jarvan). We've had 2 items designed for fighters implemented since this promise: hydra and righteous glory, which is debatable as a fighter item but it's more fighter based than tank based. We've had several fighter and general tank items removed or nerfed with literally zero compensation.

What else has happened? Small adc rework. Adc itemization rebalancing. Dfg removal and mages receiving compensation buffs they never needed (and it hurt Veigar but he's got buffs so he might turn out to be ok). And suddenly, APs lose one item that was considered abusive by Riot and not even 5 patches later, the best most versatile itemization in the game randomly gets another huge item that it doesn't need. Make no mistake here, I'm not complaining about AP itemization, I think it's fucking great. I don't think its OP. And they're also getting mana regen retuned and new mana items because of mana regen nerfs.

So on all this time, 3 seasons, every class has gotten attention that has made them significantly better except fighters and assassins. Fighters have been ignored for the most part and their itemization has only been removed and left to shit and assassins have just been straight up nerfed. Supports, ADCS, Mages, Junglers and now tanks are getting items to help them despite all of the above aside from supports at one point basically always being half way decent. Tanks have been iffy but in general tank itemization is pretty decent, tanks aren't half bad (aside from the jungle) and they're getting more help.

I'm just wondering at this point does riot even care? Make no mistake about it, I don't want bruisers to come back and basically be botrk + full tank and maul carries with base damages (Aka Shyvvana). I would much rather see itemization that gives them less durability than a tank but more damage and utility than what they currently have because wits end, frozen mallet (aside from Gnar) and atm- oh wait, is a joke. Maw is good, Trinity is all purpose. BC is all purpose but decent. Hydra is good. Ghostblade is basically an ADC item because what bruiser aside from Garen wants crit? There's just no variety that offers any of this.

So yeah, that fighter rework guys. About that..

9 Comments

Linna Excel1 votes

But HateDaddy, even Hashinshin has given up on the hopes of getting fighter rework!

I'd love to see some fighters getting work but I don't trust riot's balance team anymore. They just lack consistency and if they did a fighter rework now the chances are that we are either getting broken OP fighters or broken UP fighters with little room in the middle. I mean look at poppy. Most people who play her build damage with one or two tank items (unless behind), but riot is turning her into a full tank with CC that requires an enemy next to a wall.

So I'm going to say riot doesn't even know what fighter players want or like, or they know but don' give a crap at all.

If for a minute you grant the benefit of the doubt that the last sentence as true, do still you want a fighter rework?

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ratU50l,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-10T20:32:05.291+0000)

But HateDaddy, even Hashinshin has given up on the hopes of getting fighter rework!

I'd love to see some fighters getting work but I don't trust riot's balance team anymore. They just lack consistency and if they did a fighter rework now the chances are that we are either getting broken OP fighters or broken UP fighters with little room in the middle. I mean look at poppy. Most people who play her build damage with one or two tank items (unless behind), but riot is turning her into a full tank with CC that requires an enemy next to a wall.

So I'm going to say riot doesn't even know what fighter players want or like, or they know but don' give a crap at all.

If for a minute you grant the benefit of the doubt that the last sentence as true, do still you want a fighter rework?

Yes

Because if riot decides fighters or their concept is bad, I'd rather have the champions who function as fighters now changed to function better as tanks.

doublelift fg1 votes

IDK why people downvote you

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ratU50l,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-10T20:59:39.698+0000)

IDK why people downvote you

I dunno

I'd prefer they tell me why they disagree but that's probably asking too much. Then again, much as I love serious discussion, this is the place that several people have tried to tell me Wits end is secret OP

Linna Excel1 votes

Problem is if you want them as tanks, riot would make them assassins or bruisers.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

The fighter project is still a big deal. It remains one of the biggest weaknesses of the game design. I don't think it's about fighter itemization, though. I think it's about fighter kits.

Over in the ranged characters, Riot has been replacing reliable damage patterns with ones that offer more counterplay; this is largely achieved with League of Skillshots: Veigar Corki Xerath Heimerdinger Soraka Zilean (etc...)

The general idea here is that reliable damage affords little counterplay, and the resulting fights turn into statistical contests. Looking at how things like Corki's new Q have worked out, I'd say they have a point. Guess what? This was the core problem with top lane for years. The way I see it, the problem is how basic Riot's implementation of melee combat is. Many melee characters are targeted gap closer into reliable damage output: Jax Irelia Pantheon Poppy XinZhao MonkeyKing (etc...)

Riot still wants melee champions to be a thing; obviously the game sucks if we only have ranged champions. That's why the relatively few fighters that have the kind of outplay and counterplay mechanics Riot likes happen to be such strong champions right now LeeSin JarvanIV Vi RekSai. Meanwhile, there are a ton of fighter kits out there that just don't have these characteristics, and so Riot is content not to push them into meta viability.

Ultimately, I think the resolution of this problem is the rework of a ton of fighter kits. This is a hard reality for Riot to face, though. For one thing, reworks are seriously hard to do -- stuff like the Sion relaunch takes months and months. For another, reworks are often unpopular, because core things that people like about a champion are being changed. That's why I think Riot hasn't gotten the bat off their shoulder on this topic -- it's a lot of effort, and it's a relatively thankless task.

To me, the big question is how we can make fighter combat have as much outplay and counterplay potential as mage combat. For example, I really want to see Fiora feel like a skillful duelist, where you're rewarded for precise timing and deftly getting into and out of melee range. I don't want her to feel like a champion where you press all the buttons all at once, and that's the best play to make.

qetzel1 votes

It is almost as though it is a really big job that has no obvious solution. Almost.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Do you really want them to make every champion Olaf?

DanofDemacia1 votes

Well i downvoted because i disagree on the part where u said mages are in a good spot. Aside from annie, morg, and ahri they all have one thing or another wrong with them. Thier itemization is great but the individual champs not so much

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