Make Hecarim's passive bonus AD scale with MS BEFORE diminishing effects!

Pierce The Veal·Dec 13, 2015·5 votes·815 views

So with the removal of the unit collision passive, I feel like it's fair to at least restore some of Hecarim's passive's strength. The idea is that Hecarim should gain bonus ad based on what his movement speed would be if movement speed didn't have diminished returns.

If you didn't know, movement speed above 415 is reduced by 20% and movement speed above 490 is reduced by 50%. This would be more quality of life, giving him a little bit more AD for actually focusing on movement speed. And it would also encourage multiple playstyles on him.

21 Comments

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20152 votes

Actually, above 415 MS, it's reduced 20%, and then the 50% soft cap starts at at 490 MS.

Normally, Hecarim's bonus AD from 490 MS is 21.75-43.5. If it scaled on the MS bonus before caps, it would be 24.6-49.1, a total difference of 2.8-5.6 AD, and all AD gained from future MS would be doubled.

This would, in the grand majority of situations, only have a noticeable effect on the damage dealt by his E, because he usually does not have the luxury to build up over 490 passive movement speed (and no, Mobis don't count for this, as they deactivate the moment he gets into combat).

ParoeDec 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Actually, above 415 MS, it's reduced 20%, and then the 50% soft cap starts at at 490 MS.

Normally, Hecarim's bonus AD from 490 MS is 21.75-43.5. If it scaled on the MS bonus before caps, it would be 24.6-49.1, a total difference of 2.8-5.6 AD, and all AD gained from future MS would be doubled.

This would, in the grand majority of situations, only have a noticeable effect on the damage dealt by his E, because he usually does not have the luxury to build up over 490 passive movement speed (and no, Mobis don't count for this, as they deactivate the moment he gets into combat).

Since hecarim is a pwny, can his passive litteraly be "has no movement speed cap"? Id love it if i could buy 5 ludens (wish we still had zephyr for this...) and d a mobi boots and have like 800 MS before homeguards.

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20151 votes

That would be a lot of fun, but completely removing the MS caps would probably break his mobility on a horse's back. Reducing their effect, say halving them, would be a lot of fun though.

Pierce The VealDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually, above 415 MS, it's reduced 20%, and then the 50% soft cap starts at at 490 MS.

Normally, Hecarim's bonus AD from 490 MS is 21.75-43.5. If it scaled on the MS bonus before caps, it would be 24.6-49.1, a total difference of 2.8-5.6 AD, and all AD gained from future MS would be doubled.

This would, in the grand majority of situations, only have a noticeable effect on the damage dealt by his E, because he usually does not have the luxury to build up over 490 passive movement speed (and no, Mobis don't count for this, as they deactivate the moment he gets into combat).

Oh my bad, then I had my facts a little wrong.

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20151 votes

S'all good, it's easy to see how the conclusion would be drawn based on how close the math is. The difference between those figures is really small, and I only knew beforehand because I tend to look up these things all the time.

Pierce The VealDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

S'all good, it's easy to see how the conclusion would be drawn based on how close the math is. The difference between those figures is really small, and I only knew beforehand because I tend to look up these things all the time.

I had relied on wiki a LOOOOONG time ago. Back in like season 3? So things might have changed as well. Or wiki was just wrong like always. But nice catch man. Feel free to add me if you like looking things up ;P I am big on theorycrafting.

Wayward KilljoyDec 13, 20151 votes

Yes.

BluePolarizerDec 13, 20151 votes

I'd rather his passive simply read:

"Hecarim gains 30% of bonus movement speed as bonus attack damage and has no maximum movement speed."

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20152 votes

...I don't think there is a maximum MS. There are soft caps, but completely removing those would be a bit ludicrous.

Ooh! How about halving the soft caps for him?

ParoeDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

...I don't think there is a maximum MS. There are soft caps, but completely removing those would be a bit ludicrous.

Ooh! How about halving the soft caps for him?

Why would flat removal of them on hecarim be bad?i mean.... think about it. Hes a horse.

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20151 votes

I'm not thinking about it in terms of what the character is. I'm thinking in terms of game balance.

All MS scalars are balanced around having both of those soft caps. If they were completely removed...well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os-my1q2zW0

BluePolarizerDec 13, 20151 votes

why would removing the soft caps be ridiculous? How much MS is Hecarim realistically going to build and still be able to be an initiator?

item 3078 item 3142 item 3742 item 3046 is about it + boots, and that's really really stretching it.

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20151 votes

That's ignoring the capacity of his teammates to increase his mobility.

Just having a Zilean would mean he could hit 274% of his MS, which is a total 945 MS with no items at all.

ParoeDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's ignoring the capacity of his teammates to increase his mobility.

Just having a Zilean would mean he could hit 274% of his MS, which is a total 945 MS with no items at all.

That requires a lot of things though - in a real game, it will hardly ever happen. And you can just make speed buffs follow the same rules as slows if thats a problem. Clarity and all that.

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20152 votes

Yes, in a real game, you're not going to get the same effect as the 9k Rammus, but if you removed MS caps, you would rather consistently see a 1k Hecarim. That's literally going from the edge of sight range to melee range in 1 second, before adding in the mini-dash attached to his E.
Movement Speed buffs and Slows function on different rules for a reason. A slow is calculated by multiplying a champion's total MS by the inverse of the slow's percentage (i.e. a 20% slow on 500 MS is 500 * 0.8 = 400 MS). An MS buff, on the other hand, falls into two groups: Flat and % MS. Flat MS is added up first (345 base + 45 from T2 boots = 390), and then all the % MS boosts are added together (7% + 5% + 3% = 15%) before being applied as a total multiplier of the flat MS (390 * 1.15 = 449 MS, caps reduce it to 442).

If the % MS buffs functioned based on the total MS as slows do, it would increase MS much more than it does right now, because percentile multiplication is exponential growth.

ParoeDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes, in a real game, you're not going to get the same effect as the 9k Rammus, but if you removed MS caps, you would rather consistently see a 1k Hecarim. That's literally going from the edge of sight range to melee range in 1 second, before adding in the mini-dash attached to his E.

Movement Speed buffs and Slows function on different rules for a reason. A slow is calculated by multiplying a champion's total MS by the inverse of the slow's percentage (i.e. a 20% slow on 500 MS is 500 * 0.8 = 400 MS). An MS buff, on the other hand, falls into two groups: Flat and % MS. Flat MS is added up first (345 base + 45 from T2 boots = 390), and then all the % MS boosts are added together (7% + 5% + 3% = 15%) before being applied as a total multiplier of the flat MS (390 * 1.15 = 449 MS, caps reduce it to 442).

If the % MS buffs functioned based on the total MS as slows do, it would increase MS much more than it does right now, because percentile multiplication is exponential growth.

By the same rules i meant in what is applied. Only the more powerful slow will BE applied, they dont stack anymore. its been like that for awhile, ever since raylais got buffed.

If compound speed buffs from allies proves to be a problem, wouldnt making the two kinds of effects follow the same rules be better, if only for clarity?

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20152 votes

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

The entire point of removing or weakening the MS cap would be to allow this sort of thing to happen. I simply think that totally removing the caps would be giving too much freedom for it to be balanced.

Also, doing that would be difficult because you can get buffs from 3 sources. Self, item held by self, and an ally. The system does categorize these things, as seen by how the old Aura items functioned.

ParoeDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

The entire point of removing or weakening the MS cap would be to allow this sort of thing to happen. I simply think that totally removing the caps would be giving too much freedom for it to be balanced.

Also, doing that would be difficult because you can get buffs from 3 sources. Self, item held by self, and an ally. The system does categorize these things, as seen by how the old Aura items functioned.

Yes and slows also come in different forms. Ever try to slow a self slowed Blitz? the slows dont compound.

Its simply the most powerful overwrites the weaker.
Applying that to buffs could easily allow hecarim to have a unique passive like no MS cap.

JustMyBassCannonDec 13, 20152 votes

And it would also completely miss the point of removing the MS caps.

That was the very first thing I said, and you've completely ignored it.

Pierce The VealDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's ignoring the capacity of his teammates to increase his mobility.

Just having a Zilean would mean he could hit 274% of his MS, which is a total 945 MS with no items at all.

Alright, make his passive read as so: Movement speed is not capped except for movement speed given from allies.

Pierce The VealDec 13, 20151 votes