"We want strategic diversity for season 5"

FalconPawwwwnch·Dec 8, 2014·19 votes·1,262 views

Continues to ignore the fact that marksmen are the only 100% mandatory role

Inb4 "but supports are also mandatory" Annie is not a support, fiddlesticks is not a support, yet they've both shown in the past that they've been the meta bot lane. Just because someone is being played with 0 farm doesn't change their champion class. Hypothetically speaking if Poppy went bot lane with a marksmen she'd still be a fighter not a support lol

Inb4 "but junglers are also mandatory" Jungle is a position on the map, not a class of champs lol. This is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Top laner is not a class, it's a role that consists of fighters, mages, tanks, etc. Jungler is not a class of champions, it's a role that consists of tanks, fighters, etc. Mid laner is not a class, it's a role that consists of assassins and mages and even supports. AD carry is a role that consists of... marksmen... Yea

40 Comments

HateDaddyDec 8, 201414 votes

Ranged will always be mandatory when they're the best class at sieging and teamfighting late game. Until something is done about one or the other, ranged ADCs will always be the most dominant class. The entire game revolves around them. Top laners take TP for bot lane fights. Mid laners look to roam bot to secure bot lane. Junglers camp bot because not only is dragon important but having an ADC with an advantage is the best possible ticket to winning there is. I wouldn't have a problem with this if other classes had the capacity to do both or be super strong in simply one category but that's not the case and when this does emerge, it's nerfed into the ground completely.

PrinceArchieDec 8, 20148 votes

You say Jungler is not a role then you proceed to say it is a role.. that confuses me firstly. But anyway in regards to needing a marksman or a jungler yes and no? Obviously the game has evolved in such a way that a certain set up of play is heavily catered to for a victory. However you arent obligated to play that way. I'm not against the idea that perhaps resources in the game don't allow for a vast deviation from traditional roles, however it all boils down to if you are going to follow what works best or not.

You can either tweak what you like and what you don't like with already proven successful set ups or you can pioneer something new, the floor is given to you to show the world what you got. Riot isnt going to go out of their way to hand every player a new meta, they just mess with things to make it as versatile as possible. If you feel there are things that could be developed, try to develop them yourself and experiment. Network with other players and friends who are willing to try these things out. Not much else I can say honestly, you gotta be the change you want to see.

FyshinaTuxDec 8, 20147 votes

typos, they happen.

What he meant to say is:

"Jungler is not a champion class (i.e. Mage, Fighter, Marksman, etc.), it is in fact, a role (position on the map)."

People don't differentiate between these anymore. Midlane has become synonymous with a certain number of champions, the support ROLE has become synonymous with certain champions, etc etc etc.

Try playing Blitzcrank top for example. I can guarantee you 1 thing, your team will complain to no end. What's funny about that, is that he is a "tank/fighter" based on his labels from Riot. It makes sense that he should play top lane, given that most other "top laners" are "tanks" or "fighters". Yet he's labeled as a Support by the community, because that's the ROLE that he has become known to fulfill.

Class != Role (that means "does not =" for those that don't know). Stop treating them as though they're the same.

Oh, and the pros even admit that a Ranged ADC is the safest way to poke down a turret while in a siege situation, so yea... that's pretty damned important.

Rule 34Dec 8, 20147 votes

The strategic diversity is putting ranged champions everywhere and removing melees from the game unless they can use Warrior enchantment from the jungle.

Gear KittyDec 8, 20147 votes

Support is a Class Archtype AND a style of play; this tends to get them categorized as the Support Class and Support Role.

(Traditional) Support Champions, as you alluded, are the Sona, the Janna, the Nami. Significantly weaker 1v1, but with added strengths when 2v1 or 2v2+. Normally, at least one of their abilities can only be used when an ally champion is available.

Support Role is the meta position wherein one team member sacrifices personal play to cover, protect, and setup their duo-lane ally. The complication arises when certain champions can go Support (Role) and transfer into a high threat team mate late game (Annie, Fiddlesticks, Kayle, Nidalee). This should NOT be confused with a "Kill-lane", ala a Katarina^, Evelynn^, or Draven "Support". Most of the time, both champions in that lane are aiming for personal kills and glory. If Poppy became a meta pick as a bot lane partner, she would likely be Support (Role). Same goes for Leona and Blitzcrank, both of which were not designed solely to be Supports (Role).

^: I've played Kat and Eve support (only taking kills when my carry couldn't secure them, much like Nidalee and Fiddle). Kat wasn't so hot, more or less just an extra target, but Evelynn won the game because it forced the jungler to camp bot, leaving their weak early game solo laners to crumble under ours.

redniwediSDec 8, 20146 votes

Sorry, but marksmen are not mandatory. Having an ADC isn't even mandatory. All elements of the meta can be replaced if there's proper teamwork involved.

FalconPawwwwnchDec 8, 20146 votes

Sorry, but marksmen are not mandatory. Having an ADC isn't even mandatory. All elements of the meta can be replaced if there's proper teamwork involved.

Find me 3 professional games in the last 3 years where a team running a comp without a marksmen won

Hint: you won't

"diversity"

redniwediSDec 8, 20146 votes

Why? I don't play at a professional level. I doubt you do either. At our level of play these things are not mandatory. They help to coordinate a group of strangers, but they are not a required part of the game by any means.

At the professional level however there are teams who are practicing around these roles. Each player specializes in a particular role, so if they were to adapt to something new they would likely require a change of roster. Things won't likely change for them until a new team comes in with their own variation of the meta and beats the snot out of everyone.

FalconPawwwwnchDec 8, 20146 votes

Why? I don't play at a professional level. I doubt you do either. At our level of play these things are not mandatory. They help to coordinate a group of strangers, but they are not a required part of the game by any means.

At the professional level however there are teams who are practicing around these roles. Each player specializes in a particular role, so if they were to adapt to something new they would likely require a change of roster. Things won't likely change for them until a new team comes in with their own variation of the meta and beats the snot out of everyone.

Okay, you completely ignored my argument.

I never said I played at the professional level. HOWEVER

Professionals are the best at determining what the most overpowered strategies are. Do you know what professionals haven't done? Won games without a marksmen. In fact, in all my years of watching professional LoL since season 1 ended, I can think of ONE game where a team won at a professional level without a ranged AD.

redniwediSDec 8, 20147 votes

I haven't actually ignored your argument. Though I didn't outright say it I basically called your argument irrelevant.

Professionals have their own meta, where as ours is only a dull copy of theirs. They are playing to counter other professionals. Watch their movements and strategies closely. When was the last time a marksmen went without a support for the first 10 minutes of a game so that the jungler could do their first jungling rounds in saftey?

We do not play anywhere near a professional level, and so we are able to successfully use strategies that they cannot, and vice versa. At our level melees can destroy bot lane, and full bruiser teams can still do their five man towerdives. You're trying to compare things that are by their very nature impossible to truly compare.

Earl EulrichDec 9, 20141 votes

though the thing is....balancing should always be about potential, not about how people do when they play mediocre. Otherwise you end up in a world where Lee Sin still has his 60%AS-slow and LB still has her silence...despite proving that all those nerfs didn´t really effect them too terribly in many matchups. So bringing down ADCs a tad would absolutely be alright for all lvls of play...if anything it would only promote you more to not play an ADC on low lvls of play if you are better with bruisers/melee-carries/assassins - but to bring out those instead. So it absoultely would promote divertsity if a bad played ADC wouldnßt be on the lvl of a fairly good played bruiser/assassin - but actually on the lvl of a bad played bruiser/assassin.

DrCyanideDec 8, 20148 votes

Bingo. It's just hard to solo queue and get a replacement to the ADC bot lane.

Azir is the first Mage who could arguably replace an ADC. I've seen a Pantheon and Xin Zhao bot lane destroy a conventional bot lane. You have options, but most people don't want to buck the meta.

Sire HippingtonDec 8, 20144 votes

cassio was there way befor Azir and is probably the mage that comes closest to an marksman. However, ever since the very start of season 1, i can't reamember a single pro-game without an marksman on both teams. And if anyone has a high enough level of teamplay to pull of a no-marksman combo, it is a pro-team... Screwing with the meta only works if you know very well what your doing AND if your enemy lacks the proper coordination to react to it.

DrCyanideDec 8, 20142 votes

Pro teams often try and minimize risk and maximize reward. They play and practice for money. That said, you see some crazy stuff in games where they do decide to throw caution to the wind. If I recall right, there was a Millennium vs Alliance game this last season before worlds that was like that, resulting in kills all over the place (it was very good for my fantasy team).

If the IEM is anything to go of, I'd keep an eye on Unicorns of Love. They might be the first team to give it a shot.

Sire HippingtonDec 8, 20143 votes

Not realy, going by the games if seen fro UOL, they will rather be the first that give a 4-5 marksmen comp a shot. Their toplaner anf jungler are experementing with off meta picks(the jungler also has a thing for ranged hunglers^^), midlane adc is already a meata thing, and their botlane is highly conservative so far, going with lucian thresh whenever they can.

The problem is tha in higher elos, unless you are 5 man premade and don't realy care to much if you loose, going with a no-marksmen strategie is not a option, and that sucks imo. I played alot no-adc botlanes in S3, but since the meta shifted a bit more away from bruisers and i reached blat, that doesn't work out anymore, as such lanes rely on capitalizing on enemys mistakes, which happen less often at higher elos.

I would really viably play no-adc setups without going on a smurf acount

SmokingPuffinDec 8, 20145 votes

How would you like an ADC-less team to try to win the game?

It's a serious question. To make this strategically interesting, we need there to be tradeoffs for running or not running an ADC. What are those tradeoffs supposed to be?

Hullabaloo907Dec 8, 20141 votes

I dont think adcs are op, but i do think it would be cool if some ap carries could be serious picks for bottom lane, or if some adcs could take there ap builds bottom lane.

SmokingPuffinDec 8, 20141 votes

I dont think adcs are op, but i do think it would be cool if some ap carries could be serious picks for bottom lane, or if some adcs could take there ap builds bottom lane.

I think it's clearly possible to fashion an APC kit with a similar damage profile as an ADC. You'd need a way of having that champion put an ADC level of damage on turrets, and you could presumably do that with either a passive or something like Azir's W mechanic. The question here is whether this is worth it. If we make an AP champion that is functionally like an ADC, what good thing do we get?

Alternatively, we could be looking at playing a champion with a different damage profile than an ADC. Say an AP champion that's better midgame and worse lategame than an ADC in teamfights, but still has tower breaking potential. This creates more strategic diversity than the AP-ADC model, but it has its own problems. The big one is how you start -- once you have 10 such champions, it's just a part of the game, but if you have only a couple then it's very vulnerable to being a unique snowflake that's just amazing or sucky.

Hullabaloo907Dec 8, 20141 votes

An ap champ who functions like an adc will let you pick a magic damage champ for the bottom lane, which would be kind of cool in some situations. Some adcs have a big magic component, but usually building specifically for that just turns out meh, even discounting that you lose out on damaging towers. It would be really complicated, because magic damage and physical damage are tuned differently, but if it is possible i think riot should look into it.

Alternatively, an ap champ who scales better with items that with levels could go bottom. These champs would be weak in mid lane, but awesome in bottom lane. Some champs might be able to do this already, but i dont know who they are and how effective they are.

7ha7guy777Dec 8, 20141 votes

there are at least 2 AP champions that can be played with AD items in bot lane. they are Thresh and Malzahar . just because they can be played with AD items, does not mean it is viable at all (if any) levels of play. Thresh has 200% AD scaling on the max damage of the passive on-hit magic damage of Flay (E) at max rank. his passive gives him ap without building ap items so his abilities continue to scale slightly over time. the low range (450) can be a problem but does allow you to use the item 3153 active without moving closer than your auto attack range. in my experience, Thresh "adc" works best with a Blitz support that you are ideally duoing with (communicating in person or through some voice chat). has 100% bonus AD scaling on his voidlings. he also has high base damages on Q and E. i've heard Malzahar and Morgana make a good botlane duo but i don't know if that's AD or AP Malz. because i've only played him as the "adc" once and that was against an all melee team (3 of which had gapclosers) i can't accurately say how effective AD Malzahar bot is. If i'm not mistaken, nami and janna can also be used as "adcs" but i haven't tried either one as an adc yet

Earl EulrichDec 8, 20141 votes

Better early-midgame, worse lategame would be a tradeoff. But as it is, ADCs are too strong to lane against and have a too strong midgame currently...so there´s just no stage in the game when anything would outshine having an ADC.

NubeelDec 9, 20141 votes

Well I have seen some unusual botlanes work before. Ones without an ADC.

One was a Yasuo/Cho'Gath botlane. The Yasuo got 2 pentas that game One was a WW/GP botlane. GP carried so hard and everytime WW had his ult in lane GP would get a double.

There are more but I think my point has been made.

RaptameiDec 8, 20143 votes

You need to put 2 people into a lane.
One of them should not get farm (more expensive items are more gold efficient, so it's better to funnel the gold to one of the two).
The other can farm safely and get a ton of gold in safety, so this should be a hyperscaling character.
AP relies too much on levels to be a viable duo lane carry.

-> AD carry.

Not because "derp they are OP" but because it's the only class that meets the requirements for a duo lane farmer.

RebonackDec 8, 20143 votes

It's worth reiterating that there's a difference between champion archetypes and lane positions.

'Jungler', 'Top', 'Mid', and 'Support' can all be filled by a wide range of champion archetypes.

'Carry' is almost totally exclusive to Rangers.

I still think it would be nice if Riot raised the bonus damage on auto-attacks that AP does to towers so Mages could reliably help poke down towers in a siege situation. That would make Rangers a bit less mandatory.

Kuroi86Dec 8, 20142 votes

Continues to ignore the fact that marksmen are the only 100% mandatory role

Eh, not mandatory, simply too efficient at what they do to be replaced. The meta is the meta because it's what works best. Just because one strat works best, doesn't mean it's in the rules that you can't do something else.

Sire HippingtonDec 8, 20146 votes

If marksman are too effecktive and building your team around marksmen is the strategie that works best, this translates to marksmen beeing mandatory if you really want to win...

Kuroi86Dec 8, 20141 votes

Sort of, but not really. Ever seen a double bruiser bot? Not the best of strategies because you're REALLY putting all of your cards into your early game and the ability to shut down the enemy marksman and support before they can really do anything. Hardly a strategy the pros would use either because it's a high risk/high reward sort of strategy that can backfire hard. That said, I've seen it work at a few different elo's.

Besides, if you took out marksmen, they would simply be replaced by AD mages. (Yes, I know that sounds terrible, it really is.) The point of the ADC is multifold. Tower pushing, high poke, high DPS. Marksmen simply do this the best of all classes. If they didn't exist, another class would automatically take their place in the exact same parameters.

Sire HippingtonDec 8, 20145 votes

Somehow all you say sounds like adc beeing mandatory, yet you say they aren't...

And nope, if they wouldn't exist(or exist the way they do), there wouldn't automatically be another class tankeing their place in the exact same parameters. No other class porvides a high level of towerpushing, poke and dps at the same time. Ad casters usually have lower lvl of dps, and most off al are close ranged, they lack the poke and most off all towerpresure that an aadc brings while also beeing the highest damage vs champions. Adc just are just superior at to much things at once. theit laneing is incredible potent, they are just somewhat vulnerable to assasins and ganks, which is the reason why they get a support. Since some changes, they already start to become a major damage-threat in the midgame while providing the highest dps vs objectives while also maintaining a relative save position due range, and most of the are also very potent duealists already. In the lategame, Adc are superior at everything that isn't tanking or cc(well some bring good cc but therefor lack mobillity).

Kuroi86Dec 9, 20141 votes

Somehow all you say sounds like adc beeing mandatory, yet you say they aren't...

An ADC in my opinion is mandatory, a marksman is not. That's the difference in my opinion.

Even if you removed marksmen from the game, the ADC would remain, you'd simply see people taking other classes as it instead of marksmen. I mean oy, AD Lulu Ahri Annie MasterYi Tryndamere Sona

Yeah, I know, taking mages or supports as ADC is considered troll or btm picks, but without marksmen in the game, who else would you put in that place as a ranged AA based champ meant to push towers and provide DPS for your team?

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20142 votes

just that we don't want the champions that are marksmen to be removed from the game, we want them nerfed it atleast one of the points in which they are currently superior. Like reducing the damage(or ad-ratio) from ranged AAs on Towers, or take crit out of the game to reduce their dps vs champions while maintaining their towerdamage.

If not the single champs, but the system around changes, then you won't see mages take over with ad-builts. U would evt see alt more lichbanes though^^

Kuroi86Dec 9, 20141 votes

Like reducing the damage(or ad-ratio) from ranged AAs on Towers, or take crit out of the game to reduce their dps vs champions while maintaining their tower damage.

Soo... make marksmen irrelevant just for the sake of making them irrelevant? Tower pushing is one of the MAJOR reasons why ADC is crucial to games, without it games would take forever and a day. And crit is the only thing keeping most marksmen relevant, without it you'd see only ability based ADC until that got nerfed and then you'd see no marksmen played what so ever.

As "OP" as some people seem to think crit is, it's the only thing that makes marksmen relevant late game, otherwise you'd either have to give every marksman a massive steroid which would have people complaining, or else you'd make them totally irrelevant and why not just play AD Lulu every game.

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20142 votes

I don't think marksmen would become irelevant with less damage vs towers. We have baron, the dragon buff and item 2137 item 2139 as well as banner of command and Zz'rots Portal(on PBE). There are enough tools to push towers + marks men would still deal damage to towers, just not as much. The fact that they stay the single most powerfull damagesource vs champions would probably keep them relevant even if they couldn't hurt towers at all anyway.

I also don't think removing crit would make them irelevant. Many off them scale pretty well into lategame without crit(but absurdly with crit, which is why u rarly see one without) It would reinforce there job as towerkillers, especially in siege-situations. Since caster-carrys are usually shortranged, they would be less powerfull at sieging while beeing better in fights, giving a nice tradeoff and defining the power/weakness of different carrys. Some would probably need a few tweaks to stay relevant enough lategame, and we would need some more ad/as items and on-hit options, but overall it definitly wouldn't be the end of marksmen.

Kuroi86Dec 9, 20141 votes

...

I dare you to go into a serious match and not build IE and see where that gets you.

HayaishiDec 9, 20141 votes

...

I dare you to go into a serious match and not build IE and see where that gets you.

you can't kill tanks without crits, that's the whole reason why it's built. It is also the only way to make Auto attacks good.

Kuroi86Dec 9, 20141 votes

Tell that to this guy.

I also don't think removing crit would make them irelevant. Many off them scale pretty well into lategame without crit(but absurdly with crit, which is why u rarly see one without)

Earl EulrichDec 10, 20141 votes

you can´t burst them down, killing them however is not a problem. But maybe it finally would take as long as it should.

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20142 votes

as long as my enemy also dosn't get it, i'll do fine.

Kuroi86Dec 10, 20141 votes

I wouldn't be worried so much about the enemy AD as I would tank and bruisers. But whatever, good luck with your attempt.

EffectFXDec 8, 20142 votes

I don't see the problem. There is literally no way to change this as long as towers exist.

PentaJumpDec 8, 20141 votes

Sorry, but you are wrong in saying that there has always been an ADC. However, at the moment, having an ADC is essentially necessary for competitive play. ADC's are stronger than they have ever been.

The reason that there hasn't always been an ADC is similar to the reason there hasn't always been a support-class champ. For some time in the past, Urgot was meta. Urgot did not build like an ADC; his items were not multiplicative. Also, blue build Ezreal isn't an ADC build. It's more of a mage-like build. Yes, these two are both ranged and built damage items, but they didn't build multiplicative damage items that make them the most important player in the game.