not even faker can do equal score with kayle

Frius·Jun 21, 2015·25 votes·3,491 views

not even LOL gods want free lose in lcs /lck /lpl

seriouslee she needs a shit ton of improvements or 3rd rework

kayle is free elo.........for ENEMY

56 Comments

MTemptyJun 22, 201516 votes

Never forget the cancer of Kayle.... She is without a doubt the most annoying top laner one can deal with. Make whatever comments you have on her mid playstyle, but her top lane melee bullying is on par with Ryze s3, Renekton s3, Release Elise top, etc. Every time someone mentions Kayle buffs, I'm internally thinking "Do we have to? Can't we just.. i dunno, beat our teeth in with hammers? Please?". You guys aren't wrong. Kayle's heal is crap, her overall power curve is stunted nowadays, and she just isn't seeing play. I just really hate this champion top lane. -A message from the National department of Melee Bruisers.

HappyHazard07Jun 22, 20151 votes

Wasn't around during that time... What makes her so worse than lulu or lissandra?

LankPantsJun 22, 20151 votes

She has a heal, which when strong makes her impossible to remove from lane. In addition she scales into late game far better than Liss and Lulu, while still being able to bully around most melees, which makes her a lot like old Ryze.

VecuuJun 22, 20153 votes

You can compare her to Lulu a little. Both have self speed boosts and enemy slowing skills, but Kayle's fire sword is way more potent than Lulu's passive, plus you get Kayle's passive MR shred.

Essentially, if Kayle ever gets ahead of a melee champion, it's like Ten Teemos.

At least you can kill Teemo.

MTemptyJun 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't around during that time... What makes her so worse than lulu or lissandra?

You couldn't itemize against her effectively and building mr just made her mr shred eventually put you back down. She bullied out pretty much every top laner that you could play. She scaled well into late game. She had/has her ult on a 30 second cooldown lategame. Just think about that. look at the nerf history and maybe some old youtube vids from s2-s3. I don't mind seeing Kayle get some work done, just PLEASE RITO, give top lane some means to deal with her and other mages.

FriusJun 22, 20152 votes

NOT EVEN CLOSE SIS ,vlad is the most frustrating and annoying if kayle bursted witt 8 s Q and heal with 15 S W vlad can heal and burst with 4s cd Q same time

I Main SwainJun 22, 20155 votes

last I checked, she has a third, far more important ability in there...

Buttigieg 2020Jun 22, 20152 votes

Yorick less annoying than kayle?

LICENSED HOOKERJun 22, 20151 votes

Im pretty sure ~~valve ~~just wanted to keep him in a grave i ment rito

macromiteJun 22, 20151 votes

valve?

The EllimiistJun 22, 20151 votes

He mistook him for Undying, the Dota 2 hero ;p

JimmyNtheKudosJun 22, 20151 votes

This champ is cancer f*ck

MTemptyJun 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

less annoying than kayle?

At least Yorick Could be bursted... could be itemized against. Could be outscaled post 6.

Der LindwurmJun 22, 20157 votes

Her R should last a lot longer since it's an ult, afer all. Or maybe after conferring total invincibility it goes to blocking a % of damage which decays.

LilxPaprikaJun 22, 20154 votes

Her attack speed could be better. Imo she needs something like Diana who gets 20% AS from passive. Especially once nashor gets 10% less attack speed she'll need to find a way to get more AS Attack speed marks are okay not great. I'd rather get magic pen but that's me. And get as boots.

Its mostly her early game. Maybe give her early AS a bump but keep it so at lvl 18 she has same AS. How's this: maybe like ryze or Olaf (their ults passively gives them stats). In the case of ryze he gets 30% CDR, in the case of Olaf he gets armor and magic resist. I could see the same thing for kayle. Say 10%AS at level 1 , 20%AS level two, 30%AS level 3? Nerf her scaling AS however considerably while buffing her level 1 AS. She could have some of the lowest scaling AS. Such that her net outcome is closer to being around 230% away from reaching cap AS

Her growth per level could be like 1.5% same as azir but her level 1 could be like teemo's or Kennen at .69

Which reminds me azir also get bonus as from CDR correct? I think kayle could use some AS from her champion kit as well asopposed to purely relying on items. Also I tend to delay maxing her ultimate this would give me reason to level it up.

EDIT (response to comment)

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8eAzkQQk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-06-22T07:05:11.960+0000)

Diana actually has below average attack speed to make up for the buff. Which also means attack speed items are less effective on her than they are on Kayle.

First off Diana gets the 20% AS at level one that is huge. I don't mind Kayle's AS that much at level 18. Its her early game that is abhorrent. And imo Kayle relies on autos even more than diana. Now that her q was nerfed.

Currently at level 18 diana is 261.75% attack speed away From reaching cap with just base as. Kayle is at 254.6

With Diana's passive she has better values with 261.75-20 = 241.74 which surpasses kayle at level 18

Ariel the CruelJun 22, 20154 votes

Imo she needs something like Diana who gets 20% as from passive.

Diana actually has below average attack speed to make up for the buff. Which also means attack speed items are less effective on her than they are on Kayle.

Sir FuzziJun 22, 20151 votes

Couldn't they just roll Diana's passive into her stats to begin with, or am I missing some math?

ChaoticPineconeJun 22, 20151 votes

Bonus attack speed scales off your base attack speed. Rolling the passive into her base stats would give her more power with attack speed items.

Champion SkinJun 22, 20155 votes

attack speed works like this base attack speed X bonus attack speed (attack speed per level is not counted in base attack speed)

So if you have a higher base attack speed you get more attack speed from items

Some exaggerated examples like if you have 0.8 base attack speed and +50% attack speed you will have 0.8 X 1.5 = 1.2 attacks per second

if you have 0.4 base attack speed and 150% attack speed you will have 0.4 X 2.5 = 1 attack per second

In this example the low base attack speed have 3 times as much bonus attack speed but it still has less attack speed because of the base attack speed Just to show how important base attack speed is

Sir FuzziJun 25, 20152 votes

Ahhhhh, I read you. Since it's a bonus to her base, it's a bonus that applies in and of itself, but doesn't necessarily affect the progress of other items. Okay.

Thanks for clarifying that; it sounds really simple when you put it that way. I wonder why I couldn't catch that before...

LilxPaprikaJun 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8eAzkQQk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-06-22T07:05:11.960+0000)

Diana actually has below average attack speed to make up for the buff. Which also means attack speed items are less effective on her than they are on Kayle.

First off Diana gets the 20% as at level one that is huge. I don't mind Kaylee as that much level 18. Its her early game that is abhorrent. And imo Kayle relies on autos even more than diana. Now that her q was nerfed.

Currently at level 18 diana is 261.75% attack speed away From reaching cap with just base as. Kayle is at 254.6 With Diana's passive she has better values with 261.75-20 = 241.74 which surpasses kayle at level 18

Ariel the CruelJun 22, 20153 votes

Diana actually has below average BASE attack speed to make up for the buff.

My bad, probably should have been more clear on the post. I'm well aware that the passive puts her over the bar. Riot isn't that cruel. But if you're looking to make up attack speed, especially with a nerf to attack speed items, then Diana's passive isn't the way to go. Since lowering her base attack speed (compensation) would also reduce the effectiveness of attack speed items.

It works with Diana because she isn't intended to be a right-clicker like Kayle is. The passive was meant to help with her jungle clears which only comes into play early/mid game. Of course, then she ended up going mid and becoming an assassin tank. Which is why Riot said they plan to rework her eventually (and probably push her into a bruiser play style).

LilxPaprikaJun 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8eAzkQQk,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2015-06-22T14:39:58.519+0000)

It works with Diana because she isn't intended to be a right-clicker like Kayle is. The passive was meant to help with her jungle clears which only comes into play early/mid game.

kayle shines just as much in the jungle. hence her need for the early game as as well.

But if you're looking to make up attack speed, especially with a nerf to attack speed items, then Diana's passive isn't the way to go. Since lowering her base attack speed (compensation) would also reduce the effectiveness of attack speed items.

Doing the math you'd still benefit more from diana's AS setup than from kayles. As such I don't see why it wouldn't be the way to go.

the reduction going from 0.625 to 0.638 is pretty negligeable when compared to the 20% flat as you'd be getting.

say you get 100% as from items runes/masteries (a pretty good value to aim for imo). Since more AS you start to get beyond 100% i find you begin to see depreciative returns due to things like cc, kiting... there's a sweet spot where you want as and damage. its not realistic to put so much value on attackspeed past 100% as since it has a lot of depreciative return imo since you can't expected to be auto attacking non stop. whereas you can value ap as always being beneficial no matter how much you stack since no matter what your spell will go off whenever you dump your payload.

Math: Diana 0.625 +2.2 per lvl 2.2 * 17 = 37.4 + 20% passive = 57.4% as + 100% as =157.4% 0.625 * 257.4% =1.608

Kayle 0.638 +2.2 per lvl 2.2 * 17 = 37.4 + 100% as =137.4% 0.638 * 237.4% =1.512

diana still gets .10 points more in the end even while having a better early start.

I Main SwainJun 22, 20151 votes

I never understood that, what's the point in having a 20% atk speed boost if you are going to reduce her base atk speed to compensate, overall nerfing her potential atk speed?

Ariel the CruelJun 22, 20151 votes

Because she's not a right-clicker, she's a burst assassin. She was intended to be a jungler; her passive helps her clear camps (especially early game). If they ever rework her into a bruiser like they were talking about a while back, I can see her loosing the passive. But as long as her game play doesn't revolve around it, her passive is plenty strong as-is.

It's similiar to how Lissandra has above average mana costs, average mana pool, and the lowest mana regen in the game (tying with Darius at lvl 18). In exchange her passive gives her a free spell every 12 seconds or less. It's counter-intuitive, but when fully optimized her passive gives her effective mana regen on par with old Grail (you know, the item that made mana irrelevant).

FriusJun 22, 20151 votes

SEE ?SOMEONE WHO THINKS LIKE ME ,she has low speed for an auto attacker and i play her with 22 % attack speed from runes,still low speed compared to standard

Ariel the CruelJun 22, 20151 votes

The buff puts her above average. She just doesn't scale with attack speed items (or runes) as well. She's a burst assassin that was supposed to be a jungler. The passive was meant to help with her jungle clears.

ArkenStormJun 22, 20151 votes

Attack speed on-hit kayle would like to have a word. item 3153 item 3124 item 3115 item 3085 item 3006 and item 3078 / item 3146

UPfreelyJun 22, 20153 votes

i feel like they could make her ult self cast only and buff it. she's soo bad with all this mobility creep

FourVsFiveJun 21, 20152 votes

well her problem is she has to be very close range, and if enemy mobile she will have hard time keeping in range for her autos. And she can still be CCed when ulted. Maybe make it so ult makes the person immune to CC, or would that be too good? Increase her range attack range?

ProvengreilJun 21, 20151 votes

that would be an unholy combination of olaf and tryndamere, and I'm sayng this as someone who wants to start playing her again as soon as she gets a buff.

she needs a power shift, I made a thread about it a couple days ago now.

Champion SkinJun 22, 20151 votes

Well riot obviously didn't seem to like the lichbane + Q burst style so I think if anything they would probably buff her auto attacking somehow... though that makes Hurricane scary... as it can do so much AoE damage with Kayle E

supes the lostJun 22, 20151 votes

You could just get Kayle and Morgana on the same team, suddenly your carry is CC-proof, and taking zero damage. I had it happen once (I was the Morgana), the enemy team was not happy.

ParessJun 22, 20152 votes

Kayle bad ?

Nvm, just wait Runeglaive 5.12 and Nashor's tooth 5.13.

Sugar MantisJun 22, 20151 votes

Shes a decent counterpick for champs such as Daruis, but she definitely needs a shift in power. Ive seen very few players pull her off well recently.

YaYERZJun 22, 20154 votes

This might make a couple people mad, but posts like this are why the Riot balance team tends to do whatever they want while ignoring player feedback sometimes. It wasnt even that long ago that Kayle was nearly 100% pick/ban in every game. It wasnt that long ago that everyone complained about Kayle top. It wasnt that long ago that she was considered an insufferable piece of shit that took the fun out of the game for everyone that wasnt on her team.

Quite frankly I dont want her to be good again because she was completely obnoxious to deal with and there were 0 mechanics involved. Think about it. Why would you want a champ that has a strong slow, a heal, movement speed buff, ranged autos, immense safety in lane, no skills shot to speak of, and the ability to make anyone invulnerable good? You wouldnt unless you completely forgot how annoying she was before

All Day Tay TayJun 22, 20151 votes

i remember back in season 2, we had this thing called surge. it was a summoner spell that only worked on kayle or jax (or tf if you were some wierdo). look at these stats it gave Empowers your champion, increasing ability power by 6 + (4 × level) and attack speed by 35% for 12 seconds now at level 18 that gave 78 ap. a pretty good amount, basically another item. I used to run item 3006 item 3078 item 3124 item 3115 (didnt have the ap scaling at the time) item 3026 item 3146 . that build hurt. her ap and ad scaling were 100% on her q, so hybrid kayle could take a good 1/4 your hp with just q. the attack speed from this build was rediculous (it was just under 2.0. her heal was rediculous as well (dont remember the numbers but could heal like 1/4 your hp). her aoe autos based on ap meant you hit like a truck on the entire enemy team. GA plus your ult meant you didnt die. gunblade because like i said your q was 100% on ad and ap, so this thing added a ton of damage (the stats were higher back then) plus lifesteal and aoe spellvamp (plus the q now healed a good 150ish hp. I played this as the adc a lot and was my first penta ever. had a buddy that would play raka with me and we had what was called infinite sustain. back then not many people outside of support had good healing. raka heal was a chunk of hp with a 20 second cd instead of the raka now with her lower healing but lower cd, so instead of maining that, I as kayle maxed my heal. my buddy would rank up his e, which back then gave mana for free (used to be able to use it on herself but that was quickly taken out because she had infinite sustain all by herself in mid). im not kidding when i say infinite sustain. we could force out the enemy bot lane 2-3 times easy before we had to back. Kayle had major problems because she could do so much (heal, aoe auto damage, reduces enemy defence, poke that chunked you, her ult). the problem with kits that do a lot is that they are hard to balance without making them either rediculously op or up. when was the last time any of these champs got a major stat change Irelia Jax LeeSin Udyr the problem with these champs is that instead of a few major abilities that could be tweaked here and there, these ones have a lot of small abilities so tweaking one of their numbers might seem small, but they are actually big in the grand scheme of things. kayle is in a similar situation. while her abilities may seen simple and small, they really are complex because she has pretty good scaling as ad or ap, so good balance is hard to find. now kayle is a outlier in this group because she has a pretty straight foward style instead of the other hybrid/complex champs. she has a strong ult that can change entire sides of the fight and this is the reason that she doesnt move. in the same way as tryn, her ult is too strong, so her other abilites have to be very small but effective at the same time. she has fallen out because her ult isnt relevant in the tank meta. but at the same time, if they buff her to deal with the tank meta, her ult will break the games balance. shes probably the closest to a unfixable champion as you can get. if you want a better way of explaining it, watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK4ay0sYS8Q or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbTPemmD33k while kayle isnt mentioned, you could easily apply what is said in this video to kayle.

ImHerVoiceJun 22, 20151 votes

surge jarvan bot lane. <3

arcinexJun 22, 20151 votes

She's like Lulu. A utility champion. She works well with a "protect your carry" comp.

TotalJerkJun 22, 20151 votes

I personally think all Kayle needs is a faster windup animation on her autos. It would make harassing a lot smoother.

JimmyNtheKudosJun 22, 20151 votes

Her E and AS were nerfed too hard, because of too many QQ

ImHerVoiceJun 22, 20151 votes

yeah she's pretty shit they gutted her sio hard every skill has seen substanial nerfs compared to release kayle. She's not even a shadow lmao.

hurricane makes her retarded she has kalista balance problems with building hurricane.

chipndip1Jun 22, 20151 votes

I played with someone that said Kayle could be played in every lane, so he played Kayle support.

We lost.

The enemy Diana recognized that same Kayle, who apparently played mid lane the day before.

They lost.

Buff Kayle. She's archaic atm. No...REWORK Kayle and update her visuals too. Just update Kayle.

ProvengreilJun 22, 20151 votes

He wasn't as wrong as you might expect, really.

Targeted slow, heal, speed boost, invulnerability: support High amounts of AP damage, can protect self: mid ranged with some sustain, CC isn't hard but lasts a while, AD gets a lifesteal build to replace mana based sustain: toplane fighter has an excellent on-hit synergy that can work with devour enchant, sustain, can let an ally bait an all in to Ult, into a gank: jungle

in a pinch, like if someone messed up champ select badly, she can even ADC, though you wouldn't want to: AD kayle items are pretty much an ADC build.

It's just that her kit can do so much that she doesn't have the cohesion to really do one or two things super well anymore, since her numbers are just too low.

chipndip1Jun 22, 20151 votes

THAT is the problem: She can't do much well. Sure, she can be slapped on something, but I'd like a GOOD something over any something. She's not that GOOD at anything. She needs to be reworked into something with a set goal in mind. Something I'd actually value over something else. All she has going for her right now is her ult. Like...that's it.

Jeddy017Jun 22, 20151 votes

You know,Kayle is one of those champs I look at & say,"What the fuck are you gameplay wise?"

The EllimiistJun 22, 20151 votes

Damn I got 70% winrate and a ton of penta with kayle. I must be better than faker :D

Ale non è maleJun 22, 20151 votes

Kayle problem is that, as they did with other champs for which this change was even less necesary, they need to make Kayle's Q a skillshot , maybe a projectile with a small AoE ala Nami bubble/Cho Q/Vel'koz E it is clear that when Kayle was becoming too strong, they overnerfed her numbers and scalings and made her bad in any role barring for the ult that still allows her to make clutch plays (but also require extreme coordination and ability in picking the target at the right time), making her basically ult dependent in a way similar to Zilean - that as a matter of a fact has been reworked - and to Poppy - which is in the list for a rework - Put a skillshot on Q would allow also to boost a bit her numbers since she won't have anymore guaranteed damage on point and click and would thus give her enough offensive strength to work in almost any position

Also, while changing numbers, they could finally remove that nonsense AD ratio on Q and add an AD ratio on her E which make thematically far more sense since E is what makes her an hybrid champ given that enhances autoattacks

Possible Kayle changes

Q: Reckoning Becomes AoE ground target ability Range ~~650~~ ---------> 900 Magic Damage ~~60/110/160/210/260 (+60% AP) (+ 100% bonus AD)~~ ----> 60/110/160/210/260 (+ 75% AP)

W: Divine Blessing Cooldown 15 ----> 15/14,5/14/13,5/13 Heal ~~60/105/150/195/240 (+45% AP)~~ -----> 75/120/165/210/255 (+ 37,5% AP) Movement Speed ~~18/21/24/27/30 (+ 7% per 100 AP)~~ ------> 23/26/29/32/35 (+5% per 100 AP)

E: Righteous Fury Bonus Magic Damage ~~20/30/40/50/60 (+ 25% AP)~~ ---------> 20/30/40/50/60 (+15% AP) (+ 75% bonus AD) Magic Splash Damage ~~20/30/40/50/60 (+25% AP)~~ ----------> 20/30/40/50/60 (+20% AP) (+ 18/24/30/36/42 % AD)