Regarding Janna winrate

BALDG1VEN BOOMER··31 votes·2,191 views

So I've seen a lot of Janna threads recently pop up yet none of them are reasonably constructed in terms of what they actually want besides "56% win rate hehexd nerf now".

Anyways..

Let's start with pretty much the one thing that has put Janna on blast in recent days, which is Ancient Coin. Before I get into Ancient Coin I want to also point out that Janna win rate was around 51% before coin was buffed so this right now this is a clear problem with itemization. She wasn't given any direct buffs or anything prior to this to plastering her with the idea of nerfing her instead of the item is like fixing a problem with solution B rather than A.

Couple of reference in regards to win rate:

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/janna

https://na.op.gg/champion/janna/statistics/support (Korea, cause NA doesn't work for some reason)

http://champion.gg/champion/Janna/Support

Anyways Coin was buffed in order to give slightly more gold in comparison to Spellthiefs and Relic Shield, so in comparison to the influx of gold most enchanters scale well of items especially with ones that impact the game highly such as Censer, Redemption, Mikaels etc. so Janna in this case is building these items much more sooner than other supports because of her gold income.

This was also the same issue that Ivern had seen when he was first released, he had a very easy and safe clear and could counter jungle easy then he would rush both Redemption and Locket which were relevantly cheap and highly impactful. Eventually his clear was nerfed and remdemption and locket were given distinct identities and latter nerfs, so rushing those doesn't feel as good or impactful.

It's even come to the point where the efficiency of coin is even being used on champions like Sona, Nami, in higher solo queue, though Sona case is a little different because the mana refund on assists is good for a hungry mana champion like her because she can easily pick up a lot of assists with her auras.

http://imgur.com/a/ZUnVi

http://imgur.com/a/xpqIU

http://imgur.com/a/ptnbK

Just to look at a few.

This creates a disparity between the two choices as one offers way more value in terms of getting to their power spikes sooner.

Traditionally supports were always gated by gold income which made their items cheap enough to compensate, but it was also a role focused on being impactful without gold champions like Alistar, Blitz, Leo, Thresh wouldn't really build coin because they're still useful and contribute without needing their items to do so.

TL;DR Nerfing coin would bring Janna win rate down so she can't spike as soon as she is currently doing, without actually nerfing Janna.

55 Comments

Partholonian22 votes

But the coin was awful and needed the buff. The fact that Janna could be viable while building the bad version of coin (or even while building spellthief's which was unsuited to her kit and playstyle) just proves that she was really good all along.

Nerfing Janna would be better than nerfing coin, IMO, if the combination really is that OP. Other people that need coin to be useful are struggling even with it. Or if you do nerf coin, then several other champions should get compensation buffs. Soraka Bard in particular come to mind.

One thing we can probably agree on, though, is not to nerf both in the same patch. Sejuani item 1401 double nerfs, never forget (or repeat).

P.S. Thresh should be building coin, he's not at all tanky in the early game anyway. The only reason people were ever tempted to throw away Flay passive's harass potential on minions to build relic is that coin was so bad for so long. If actual core relic users like Ali/Blitz/Leo/Tahm/Taric/Braum are avoiding relic (but are they really?) then maybe it needs to be looked at too.

And coin ought to be a valid choice on enchanters with some poke potential, like Sona/Nami, if you don't want to constantly go aggro in lane -- the fact that they build it sometimes/in some matchups is not a problem, it's only if it completely displaces spellthief. Even people with more reliable, safer poke like Karma and Lulu should have the option of going coin.

StoryDuck8 votes

What are you going to nerf on Janna? Her damage? That will have no impact. Base stats? They are already among the lowest. How about her CC? Taking away from her Q? It's already pretty weak unless you charge it up and predict where the enemy will go. Removing the slow of W? Why even have a W at that point? Nerfing her shield which is part of her core play? Yep that'll dumpster her quick, an enchanter that can't shield. The fact is her Ultimate pushes away melee champions and lets face it, there are a lot of melee champions. With lots of tanks seeing lots of play right now she is going to be strong and gain a high win rate.

Xela Syab3 votes

actually they could nerf the radius of her ult or make it a cone/skillshot...

StoryDuck6 votes

That would be a monumentally huge nerf. Nerfing the radius would dramatically affect which champions are impacted by it, meaning more champions will not be effected at all. Turning it into a cone/skillshot would be just as detrimental as she would lose a huge portion of her healing on her team as it would be very hard to get your entire team inside the ult. Not to mention that it can be predicted, dodged, and missed.

PokladnicaZla3 votes

Not saying you're wrong,but wouldn't that be an actual solution?

If we turns her R into a cone skillshoot,but let's make the healing overtime or soemthing else,it could work. Janna's main strength to disengage so successfully,is the reason she is hated so much by melee champs/players. If she had her R turned into a skillshoot melee's (especially assassins with mobility) would have a chance to dodge the knock back,but if she were to hit it she be rewarded.

Not saying it's the only or even a good option,but WHAT would you change? She's in a spot where nerfing damage,utility or bases stats won't fix the problem. Reworking on her skills seems like the right approach.

StoryDuck4 votes

I wouldn't change anything on her. Janna is one of those champions that when picked into the right situation is really strong and when picked into the wrong situation can be really weak. I will grant that she is very strong against melee champions but that is her identity. Her ultimate is a core part of that identity. Janna has sacrificed damage, base stats, even range to gain her peeling power. She is the premier peeler for when you want to protect your ADC. She pays for this by being the weakest ranged support in the game so her early game is very weak, she has no engaging tools so it requires others to get tools for engaging if that is needed, and she can be punished easily after her ultimate is blown.

I think the ancient coin needs to be toned down but that probably won't effect Janna unless they lower the gold it generates because her win rate always spikes when melees first come back into the meta. Give it another week or two and players will start to remember that you need to bait out her ultimate before going for that hard engage. She will still have a higher win rate but it will likely drop a couple percents.

Alright, I said my bit. I want to be fair and accept that it could be possible she does need a nerf (don't think so) if she was absolutely required to need a nerf I would increase the CD of Q. That would hit her peel by allowing larger windows to get around her peeling capabilities yet she would still have those moments of feeling like she protected her ADC.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

She's a high pick rate & winrate champion for a long while. People have also complained in the past. As someone who used to be a supp main,I really only played her if I felt the need to . Her kit isn't really fun to use IMO.Yet my fav is Soraka. It's not that she's bad or OP to the core,but she could use a change for the overall gamehealth. Playing melee's against her feels pretty shitty. R knocked back,Q knock up and targeted slow.She could use something that give the opponent a chance to out-play her,but therefore she would get compensation.

StoryDuck2 votes

As I said, if a nerf had to happen I would hit Q CD to allow those windows to outplay her peel. I can envision a flash over Q she R then they dash back in after R. Lower CD on Q means that she doesn't have anything left at this point besides a shield. The Q CD can get pretty low with 45% CDR and maxed. I always go E then Q for her just for that reason. I just don't think this needs to happen is all because she is in a good spot now.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Janna doesn't really use Q if it's not needed to.Kinda hard to bait the Q out

She has been in the top 10 win-rates for over 3 seasons now.

StoryDuck2 votes

There isn't really anyway to fix that unless she gets a complete rework or people in solo que stop heavily picking melee champions.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Changing the R would be a good way to go IMO. I know you don't want her changed,but she doesn't need a complete rework.1 skill or 2 would do.

Melees are a part of meta. Kinda the reason why Kalista was gutted.

Xela Syab1 votes

yeah but that's been her trump card over other supports, janna really can't make wrong decisions when she does stuff except with her w kinda. another solution would to give it a channeled charge which would effect the radius or impact. Granted I think she needs a Soraka scale rework so she isn't a passive sheild/cc bot.

It Hertz When IP5 votes

You want to fix the relic line? Make the third tier item 3401 / item 2303 auto proc on nearby minion deaths, because post-laning phase, when you're grouped with your team, damaging the enemy still procs spellthief, being around minion deaths still procs coin, but relic becomes really hard to work with due to mages/ADCs clearing so goddamn fast.

DarkRitual2 votes

Make it trigger on minions you have damaged recently instead. I'd rather not waste the proc on normal minions when there's a super minions I'm whacking away on.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

You know what? I like your idea better, let's go with that. Either way, though, Relic's third tier needs some kind of change to make it easier to proc.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votes

This is just my two cents.

But when comparing Coin to other support items the amount of gold you get in comparison is simply better that is outclasses them for that first reasoning, even the early +10% CDR is more prefered on enchanters vs +20 AP, nerfing Janna instead wouldn't do anything really do anything because when any item becomes top tier there's always one champion that will be on top in terms of benefiting from it.

As for spellthiefs vs coin I would agree that it being a choice in lane to play how you feel like, but right now there's isn't a match up where coin is considered a bad pick up, back in S5 Janna could've easily started coin or spellthiefs based on how the player or lane wanted to play, but as of right now coin isn't in a place where it's an optional tool.

As for relic users, most of them aren't going away from relic from what I've been looking up mainly because they don't need the early stats and they don't benefit as much in terms of getting an item to help the team, for example a 0/10 Blitz can still make one good hook to turn the game in his favour, while someone like a Janna will hope that the enemies misplay use her peel, and then use other valuable items like Redemption, Ardent etc. which she can obtain earlier now.

TheMoralSupport1 votes

Who tf builds coin on Bard

Hyrum Graff7 votes

Worth mentioning, coin also synnergizes really, really well with Janna's passive. It's noticeably helped me get my teammates to safety by outrunning the enemy team, compared to the extra skill point which doesn't matter too much on Janna.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

Wait, did I not mention that.. :x

TwitchInMyPants1 votes

Yeah the thing is literally just Janna's passive, but you have 2 of it now.

DeerGreenwood6 votes

While I will admit that coin has certainly increased the effectiveness of Janna, we can't just credit all of her spike to it. I would like to note that Janna thrives in a meta focused around diving champs- which is the meta currently.

Segius5 votes

But it would also hurt other mage/healing supports such as Soraka Rakan

and would push out of meta supports like Zilean completly off the edge

and would make tank supports MUCH stronger, and tbh I would rather have Janna then Thresh and blitz and leonaThresh Blitzcrank Leona

Narzal3 votes

It's the free Janna passive on the coin, It's like having 2 Jannas in 1 make your life 10x easier when they run towards you and they get free gold, for just being there, it also allows her to be aggressive cause she can just use her bird and then flash behind the enemy and the adc can still have the passive by running toward her,enough to delete them. item 3302 is a pretty trash gold income item it's so pitiful to not get 650g at 22 mins when the other gold items already reached it by then.

Arakadia2 votes

Its not like two Janna's because the coin quest doesn't give you her whole kit.

Her flash>W>passive combo isn't going to delete anyone.

Narzal1 votes

Are you sure? Because as far I can see, a lot of champs have mobility, like vayne passive interacting with the coin, that's 8% more ms on her passive running towards the slowed enemy and the janna body blocking em, that's secured no questions about it.

Arakadia1 votes

Unless the enemy bot lane fucking deletes Janna cause she just flashed into them.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Nerfing coin is a bad idea. Nerfing Janna instead is better.

Champs should be balanced around the game environment (runes, masteries, summoners, items, etc.), not the game environment around champs.

The only time items should be touched is when they cause class-wide abuse cases. If it's a single champion that's out of line the champ should be nerfed not the item.

LightIsMyPath3 votes

Sejuani would like to have a word with you..

koshkyra1 votes

Lets not forget Lucian item 3071

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Cinderhulk was out of line though. They just unjustly nerfed Sejauni too.

What I said still stands.

StoryDuck3 votes

I feel this is a reasonable and well thought out explanation of Janna's sudden high win rate. I would couple it with the sudden influx of tanks and heavy engage/divers but yeah coin is crazy OP right now. Luckily, they are nerfing it a bit by lowering the mana regained with blue coins. I don't think it will effect Janna but it will get coin off champions like Taric and Nami who love it not only for the gold but the huge mana regen it gives. Honestly, the basic coin pretty much reads, "Gain 500% mana regen" in its current state.

DarkRitual1 votes

"Coin gives too much gold letting some supports hit item spikes sooner, let's nerf the mana regen on it."

So like... "The house is on fire. Make sure to turn out the lights before leaving."

StoryDuck1 votes

I think the goal is jsut as I said, get coin off champions that should be getting thief or relic. The mana regen is a big part of why they get it.

DarkRitual2 votes

Its also worth noting the nerf to spelltheifs by adding the proc delay per stack made it significantly weaker (but not entirely bad) on some champions, such as Sona, Lux, and Morgana.

I would say that has also had a strong effect on Coin being a better option. Making STE procs ignore the delay for different abilities, or just flat removing the delay would bring it back to where Relic line is and Coin line should end up.

Hear Me Now1 votes

No it isn't. Janna has had a 54-55% win rate every fucking patch and a high ass play rate too. Now she's even stronger, sure, but her win rate has always been high because she's the easiest champ in the easiest role.

StoryDuck1 votes

Someone had a bad game against Janna.

Hear Me Now1 votes

Let's act like Janna takes skill

StoryDuck1 votes

Why act? All champions require skill. Bad jannas don't understand that positioning is so important and easily waste their R. Good jannas can predict the future and land fully charged or near fully charged Qs. Bad jannas don't understand when to hold their ult to heal or spam it to just push away. Good jannas can roam effectively. Bad janna passively hide behind their ADC. Good jannas can trade with the best of them. Saying Janna is a simple champion in the easiest role just shows you don't understand anything about the role or the champion. Don't believe me? Go play Janna if you think she is so powerful and easy to play. Try her and see how well you do. You will quickly find that despite a simple looking kit she is deceptively complex to accomplish playing well.

Lõyalty2 votes

The other day I say a Leblanc support take ancient coin. She didn't do much laning phase, but outside of laning phase she was able to one shot our adc because of how much money coin gave her.

I Love Thresh2 votes

Janna has been one of the strongest supports for God knows how long, and as mentioned earlier, coin was garbage before. Janna is clearly the problem, not the coin.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votes

Even when the item was bad Janna win rate sank to about 51% about 49% in Korea, the item wasn't efficient at the time and now it is and this is where all her power is coming from right now.

koshkyra2 votes

If people stopped spamming Zac LeeSin Shen Rakan into janna she would have like a 45% winrate

Just wanted to say this

chipndip12 votes

I've made a SHIT ton of threads on ancient coin already. Don't say NOBODY made a clear post on what they want done. It's only recently that I made a shit ton of Janna nerf threads.

Besides, all the Janna defenders and coin defenders just come out in droves when you try to point out that COIN IS FUCKING BROKEN.

TricolorStar2 votes

The only real problem is that Ancient Coin's passive stacks with Janna's, giving people like a 25% movespeed increase

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Just a thing I have noticed.

Jannas peel only works in One Direction, so a good strat is to come in to attack at different angles.

StoryDuck1 votes

Janna gets wrecked if people get a good flank on her and her carries.

PopcornBunni1 votes

It sounds like the problem isn't so much from the gold generated by item 3301, but what it leads into.

You said yourself Alistar, Leona, and friends don't build the cheapest support items and rely more on their kits or the passive from item 3097+; the issue is that now passive supports have good gold income along with access to cheap items.

Bring item 3107 item 3504 item 3222 item 3174 up in price, since it is almost exclusively coin users buying them.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

Hell no you would make spellthief line completely unusable with that

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

Hell no you would make spellthief line completely unusable with that

I didn't know Brand Anivia Annie Zyra Veigar Syndra Velkoz Morgana Lux MissFortune Zilean

Were big on buying Ardent Censor and Crucible, but could be.

The only Spellthif's users that build passive support items regularly are Sona and Lulu, who also have been sitting at a near 55% winrate consistently forever. The point is to add a trade-off. I've seem all of these supports run Coin as well for the gold. By increasing the costs of passive support items, it raises the variance in builds by chosing between coin and the more expensive items, or tribute and the cheaper, more offensive ones.

This is from a Support main and primarily Lulu player in support.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

Hell no you would make spellthief line completely unusable with that

I thought it was obvious I was talking about enchanters since we are talking coin and Janna, but maybe I should have said "unusable on enchanters".

chosing between coin and the more expensive items, or tribute and the cheaper, more offensive ones.

Sorry but you lost me there, I failed to see what would be the £ cheaper and more offensive" items.. illuminate me please?

The point is to add a trade-off. I've seem all of these supports run Coin as well for the gold

If you increase the price of core items you are not introducing a "trade off".. you are making coin mandatory on every single champion that wants those items since getting spellthief would put you at a huge disadvantage without virtually any advantage since you are unable to complete your core build. Nerfing gold gen on coin itself instead would make the item choice base on sustain vs more damage.

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