Krepo: "When your carries lack mobility they make up for it with damage"

Galewings·Jun 4, 2015·63 votes·4,619 views

Mean while

115 Comments

qetzelJun 4, 201554 votes

I believe he meant "sustained damage" and "hyper-mobility".

Those champions offer sizable burst, yes, but in a full 5v5 teamfight the likes of Cassiopeia or Azir (who isn't hyper-mobile) will quickly out damage them. Koggles, Xerath and Ziggs also offer this damage, but in the form of poke.

But I may be wrong.

Earl EulrichJun 4, 20156 votes

you´re pretty right with that. Someone like Fizz can´t reliably carry a teamfight on his own dmgwise lategame - except he get´s a good flank and takes out all opposite dmg first, so his own team can close the fight out. For the likes of Cassio or Kog those things don´t matter, just peel for them and they will decimate the opponent team on their own, no matter if there is no other source of dmg on their team...Victor is a little messy there, as his sustained dmg isn´t really hypercarry and his utility also is kinda medicore - he offers an incredible strong midgame though. Not to mention that those hypercarries are usually a little easier to protect than the likes of Fizz...at least from a coordinated 5v5 perspective.

Zair UmbrasJun 5, 20152 votes

Get a Lichbane, level Q, one shot after a Rabs and Lich with a Q+AA. That's Viktor for yah.

Sire HippingtonJun 5, 20152 votes

you cqan oneshot squishys that way, but only on 550range. getting there with low mobillity and no reliable cc isn't easy and puts him in alot danger. While he has more dps than many other mages, it's nowhere near to the likes of cassio or azir. This means he needs longer to pave his way through the frontline, which means he's less powerfull in a frontal 5v5. If he gets a good flank to burst doen the enemie backline, or a scatered fight where he can kite down one target after another, he's massive though.

straight4freeJun 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8X9of2At,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-05T00:54:12.770+0000)

Get a Lichbane, level Q, one shot after a Rabs and Lich with a Q+AA. That's Viktor for yah.

If you get away with that, then you're not playing opponents of the same skill level as you.

Zair UmbrasJun 7, 20151 votes

Anyone can get away with that no matter the skill level. It's the whole reason why Fizz's Q+W one shotting was removed, because it was really easy to do. You press two buttons. Fizz was W then Q with the same items, Viktor is Q and then right clicking. About the same ranges too with vik having a 525 AA range and Fizz having a 550 Q range.

straight4freeJun 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8X9of2At,comment-id=00000000000000020000,timestamp=2015-06-07T01:45:36.431+0000)

Anyone can get away with that no matter the skill level. It's the whole reason why Fizz's Q+W one shotting was removed, because it was really easy to do. You press two buttons. Fizz was W then Q with the same items, Viktor is Q and then right clicking. About the same ranges too with vik having a 525 AA range and Fizz having a 550 Q range.

If in a late game teamfight, you are able to walk up to press Q on a target worth focusing, you would win if you bought only needlessly large rods. Fizz really isn't comparable because he has untargetability.

Zair UmbrasJun 7, 20151 votes

Not... really.... His untargetability was usually used to get into a fight. Viktor has no issues with Q'ing tanks since he keeps his distance when he does so, gains a shield, and gains movement speed. Fizz used to just W+Q the tank and do half their life like a Viktor of the same amount of AP can still do.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 4, 20158 votes

Woo. More people who don't understand how assassins work.

LuggJun 4, 20156 votes

Assassins are supposed to delete squishies. They are not supposed to delete tanks as well.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 4, 20155 votes

And they don't, unless fed.

LuggJun 4, 20152 votes

A Kat can delete anyone once she gets her item 3285 . Same with any assassin, 1 item and they are good to go.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 4, 20154 votes

Well, if an assassin gets one item, then the opposing tank also gets one item and builds MR.

LuggJun 5, 20151 votes

Yes, the tank can get a defensive first item, but then he/she will do no damage and not be a threat.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 5, 20151 votes

Well the tank can CC and escape.

LuggJun 5, 20151 votes

But now you have forced them out of lane and you get the CS lead built up. You win again.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 6, 20151 votes

But most of the time tanks and assassins aren't laning against each other, unless it's mid Chogath versus an assassin, where Cho has silences and knockups to keep assassins away.

LuggJun 7, 20151 votes

True, but you will see Akali Ekko Nidalee Nocturne Talon Yasuo Zed all top sometimes.

Cho shuts down anyone who can't poke him from afar.

3TWarriorJun 7, 20151 votes

actually, chogath has trouble against champs that are close range because it effectively negates 2 of his abilities. His W may be guaranteed to hit, but if they are a close range fighter, they will either be durable enough to withstand his assault and kill him once things are off of cooldown, or they will have such high sustained damage that he can't keep up

for instance, amumu is a hard chogath counter, this means that champs like gragas, master yi, riven, etc all have advantages over him, for instance, yi can typically outrun chogath's knockup unless he's slowed from a item 3116 and yet, this is master yi we're talking about, lol

BlastiresJun 5, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the tank can get a defensive first item, but then he/she will do no damage and not be a threat.

Nautilus you don't always need damage to be a threat

SouL1essJun 5, 20153 votes

Yes, the tank can get a defensive first item, but then he/she will do no damage and not be a threat.

Percentage HP damage that are always effective without need for offensive stat scaling? Sejuani Gragas Maokai

Effective as a tank due to disruptiveness and tankiness? Nautilus Rammus

Offensive skills scaling with defensive stats? Shen Malphite

How do they "do no damage" and, more importantly, "not be a threat" when their kit gives them the ability to do so?

LuggJun 5, 20151 votes

Defensive items are expensive. So it takes some time to tank up. Meanwhile the assassin gets his/her pen item and your first item isn't near as effective. The CC tanks are disruptive, but the assassins will still get away from them most of the time.

SouL1essJun 5, 20153 votes

Defensive items are expensive. So it takes some time to tank up. Meanwhile the assassin gets his/her pen item and your first item isn't near as effective.

Compared to offensive items? No they aren't.

Seeker's Armguard - 1200g. Brutalizer - 1337g. Tiamat - 1900g.

Randuin's Omen - 2850g. Ravenous Hydra - 3300g.

Luden's Echo - 3100g. Banshee's Veil - 2750g.

Defensive items are almost always cheaper than offensive items. In the case of Seeker's Armguard, it just invalidates Brutalizer's armor pen. There is a reason why Brutalizer isn't a first item for Talon when against a mage, because Seeker's Armguard outperforms it while being cheaper. It's much better to rush Tiamat, and get Brutalizer only when you are ready to gank bottom lane.

The CC tanks are disruptive, but the assassins will still get away from them most of the time.

CC tanks are supposed to interrupt the assassin's combo, not try to make them stay after they did their job. Believe it or not, assassins feel a lot of pain from their combo getting interrupted. They take longer to kill, the enemy has more time to react to what they are doing, and they can get CC chained and die (especially because they usually invest nothing to keeping themselves alive).

LuggJun 5, 20151 votes

Great reply. I like how you provided excellent examples and the numbers as well. Most people don't do crap to back up what they are trying to say. It just makes me wonder why I see so many tanks losing fights to assassins.

PartholonianJun 5, 20152 votes

Show me a tank with 6 kills in the first 10 minutes, and I'll show you one that doesn't lose fights to assassins.

AskformorenamesJun 5, 20152 votes

While defensive items are a bit cheaper tank income is a magnitude lower than carry income. You will have 3300 gp for the ravenous hydra when the tank has 1200 for the armguard.

And suddenly the 'just build a defensive item' is a really hypocritical answer.

Sire HippingtonJun 5, 20152 votes

unless you play that tank as support, that is a highly unrelistic thing. while tanks gain less gold, it's not that sigifican't, especially top. asumeing that the tank has 2800for randuins once a dd gets the 3300 for hydra is pretty acurate.

PartholonianJun 5, 20155 votes

The tank is losing that arms race hard though, even before it reaches the item 3135 stage. No tank has the farm or the kills of an assassin.

Plus, the tank usually also has to deal with physical threats (especially if their team might ever want to fight under a turret) and split their itemization between armor and MR.

3TWarriorJun 7, 20151 votes

chogath and gragas can, though idk how people get gragas to do so much damage...

Kuroi86Jun 6, 20151 votes

Katarina item 3285 item 3089 item 3157 item 3135 item 3001 item 3020 650 AP not counting runes/masteries/dragon 15 magpen 20 magreduction and 35% magpen

Chogath item 3068 item 3001 item 3143 item 3065 item 3800 item 3111 3884 health 115 armor and 125 mr Again, no runes/masteries/stacks

MR ends up going down to 53 or about 25% magic damage reduction.

Kat can deal about 1425 +390%AP magic damage, or 3960 magic damage.

Then we calculate in his magic damage reduction and we get 2970 magic damage.

Leaving our Cho'Gath with 914 health.

LuggJun 6, 20151 votes

Getting a Cho that low without counting runes, masteries, and dragon is stupid OP.

Kuroi86Jun 6, 20151 votes

Katarina health 1921 base.

Cho'Gath damage 580 (+170% AP) Magic damage and 650 (+70 AP) True damage So 699 magic damage before resists and 699 true damage. After counting Kat's MR, we have 1049 damage, with only one psuedo damage item.

This isn't counting Cho'Gath dealing auto attacks. Long story short, Kat would lose this fight due to her lack of sustain damage, meanwhile Cho would drop well below half health with his combo and auto her to death unless she flashed away.

Note, I didn't count Cho's innate MR, his added health from feast stacks, runes or masteries. Even giving Kat runes, masteries and dragon stacks wouldn't help her in this situation. She couldn't assassinate a tank, she would be a sitting duck without her abilities.

Yes, she has lots of damage, she's an assassin, that's the point. But your statement that assassins delete tanks is only viable when you consider an assassin being well ahead of said tank. On even footing, no, most assassins can't kill tanks on their own. The only exceptions are Yasuo and Vayne as secondary assassins who are both designed as tank busters.

LuggJun 7, 20151 votes

Cho pretty much shuts down any assassin due to the silence. He is a mage/tank after all. I just wanted to emphasize how much damage Kat puts out.

Another great counter to all the AP assassins is Galio. I mid him a lot and have a 72% win rate on him atm. I just played against a Kat and completely shut her down in lane. However, she did what all Kat's do, roamed to other lanes and got kills there. Even though I pinged MIA and pinged on the lane where she was going. Sigh.

Kuroi86Jun 7, 20151 votes

Nearly all tanks have CC which puts a massive hurting on assassins. Assassins also need the burst to take down their targets, as a general rule though, they are only able to 100-0 most targets when fed or deep in the late game should they catch a squishy out.
I say most because bruisers and tanks can deny assassins kills when they are caught up to about the same point. So long as the exp and gold difference is minor, a tank can walk away from an assassin, and a bruiser has a good chance of killing the assassin.

LuggJun 7, 20151 votes

The big problem is that assassins usually are laned against someone they can kill early and they snowball like mad, killing bruisers and tanks at will after that.

Kuroi86Jun 7, 20151 votes

Such is the issue in mid lane.
Mages are still strong number wise, but in matching most assassins in farm and exp they are forced to use spells often which runs their mana out fast. This wasn't as big of a problem until the mana regen nerfs which prevented mages from building a single item and having no mana problems for the rest of the game, but at the same time while it was a necessary nerf, it still increased the necessary skill level for a mage vs an assassin by far more than was safe. Since then we've seen numerous assassin nerfs while attempting to keep them viable. So the problem is how to keep mages from building a single item and throwing any gating out the window while not gimping them vs assassins.

windwolf777Jun 6, 20151 votes

Did you also count the MR from leveling up since he's melee? Sorry, just not 100% sure

Kuroi86Jun 6, 20152 votes

Newp, not counting mr from lvls, not counting runes or masteries, or counting his feast stacks.

YossarianSenseiJun 4, 20157 votes

Please buff Jinx Ashe Sivir Annie right now they're sooooo weak

aaronautumnJun 4, 201518 votes

anni needs more base attack speed

Sakura MirageJun 4, 20155 votes

Leblanc Falls off late game. Zed Falls off late game. Fizz Can only snowball. Riven Can only snowball.

Neo CyrusJun 4, 201530 votes

False Barely Hilariously false True

killd0zerJun 4, 20152 votes

Leblanc def falls off Zed is gimped Fizz is shit atm Riven is a pub stomp

You have to be gold or higher to post on this board

redniwediSJun 4, 201525 votes

You have to be gold or higher to post on this board

You're funny.

Tannhäuser GateJun 4, 201525 votes

If he was plat he'd say plat or higher

Neo CyrusJun 4, 20156 votes

Except that'd be stupid of him to say as well anyway since I am Plat.

IcyPepperJun 4, 20158 votes

How do they fall off late-game.

They kill the squishies then get out. They don't fall off because they can't kill tanks, that's never been their job.

QuortJun 4, 20153 votes

In the late game, most fights are team oriented and just about everyone should have a defensive item or two. It becomes a lot more difficult for these Assassins to make picks and there is a much greater chance of failure... And if they're not killing anyone, they offer hardly anything else to the team. Thus, while their damage doesn't fall off that much, their ability to kill people does.

IcyPepperJun 4, 20154 votes

People make mistakes, and squishies get out of position from time to time. Assassins need to bide their time, and it's not like Zed lacks poke. They have hyper mobility for a reason, and it's to get caught-out squishies and then get out. There's a risk for a reason. If you want the reward, you take that risk and use that mobility. There is no falling off, it's all about player decisions, timing, and planning.