Shen win rate increased since his "nerfs"

Best princess EU·Apr 30, 2017·59 votes·4,794 views

but wtf riot, why are you nerfing shen?

kappa

https://i.gyazo.com/b275f96c3ec175b988e283d76af57b94.png

75 Comments

MarshbouyApr 30, 201739 votes

sshhh don't contradict the boards

Best princess EUApr 30, 201728 votes

my bad, i have to get in line with them and spam "riot +30 width on shen E is nothing"

MelledoneusApr 30, 201727 votes

The increase in win rate is actually more due to the extra damage against champions he gets on Q. His Q damage was already strong enough against champs, but the Q buffs and ult nerfs pushed him to become a lane bully and completely negate the previous weaknesses of his laning phase.

These are nerfs to what is essentially Shen (Global pseudo-support tank who can duel at a moderate level) and buffs to a lane bully playstyle nobody who played Shen even asked for or remotely wanted.

They broke Shen in a single patch and I hate it.

TEA Nietzsche Apr 30, 201731 votes

Q buffs and ult nerfs pushed him to become a lane bully and completely negate the previous weaknesses of his laning phase.

Who would have thought?!

{quoted}

So you're completely removing Shen's ability to farm for a measly 15-40 damage. If this isn't a nerf, nothing is.

Well. Not you it appears.

Global pseudo-support tank who can duel at a moderate level

(which broke him in competetive because it's a strength that is optimally used in an organized environment)

lane bully playstyle

Which is what is good in soloQ.

So they changed exactly what they needed to in order to make Shen weaker in competetive and stronger in soloQ. Look at how competent they are!

MelledoneusApr 30, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=AI Qaida,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8L8btElW,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-30T15:40:01.194+0000)

Who would have thought?!

Well. Not you it appears.

If I remember correctly I made that post when it was still a flat 15 damage that didn't scale. Also, let me post the rest of that paragraph so that we can be more fair here.

{quoted}

Shen does not, and I repeat DOES NOT need more champion damage. He can half-health most top laners at level 1 if he gets three empowered Q autos off. His damage is fine against champions, he needs to be able to farm.

My stance on the Q is the same as back then. So what I say here does not contradict what I said back then, as you imply it does.

(which broke him in competetive because it's a strength that is optimally used in an organized environment)

The purpose of this patch was to close the skill gap between competitive teamplay and Solo Queue Shen power. The ult changes were a good start until they kept the shield values at the same measly amount that they were before, making the scaling nearly pointless to begin with, as well as changing up the dynamic of his Q so that instead of having to turtle in lane against lane bullies, he just stomps them.

It seems Riot forgot they were balancing a lane tank and not a f*cking juggernaut.

Which is what is good in soloQ.

Then let's change Karthus into a mobile assassin with low cooldowns and high burst damage because that's what's good in soloQ.

Your logic is flawed in the sense that trying to change a champion into something they're the opposite of is never a good idea on a small-scale change like this.

So they changed exactly what they needed to in order to make Shen weaker in competetive and stronger in soloQ. Look at how competent they are!

Yeah, so competent that Shen is still seeing consistent play in the LCS, has a strong early game now (despite being a late game tank), and focuses more on aggressive ult plays than defensive ones even more than before (the very same strategy used in the LCS that broke him in competitive to f*cking begin with).

Once pro teams figure him out he's going to see even more play in the LCS. Then Riot's going to enter another endless cycle of "we don't wanna admit we're wrong, so we'll pretend like we intended all of it and change something else."

I'm sorry that this discussion has made your third-rate meme below irrelevent, but I just wanted to clarify that these changes were in fact a nerf to what Shen was in Solo Queue to his mains even more than the LCS.

chipndip1Apr 30, 20176 votes

Not reading all of this but assassins have moderately low general win rates in solo queue if we're not jerking that circle.

MelledoneusApr 30, 20174 votes

All right, bad example, I suppose. But my point still stands. Just because something is good in Solo Queue doesn't automatically mean it should be put into a chanpion's kit.

chipndip1Apr 30, 201712 votes

I mean, why though?

People were upset that pro play Shen nerfs were making solo queue play Shen weaker by the patch, so Riot wanted to think of a way to nerf pro play Shen play patterns while buffing solo queue Shen play patterns. They achieved this to a tee. Why are you upset? You enjoy being able to play Shen AND Shen is made a bit more balanced for the pros. I'd say it's win-win. You can still do whatever Shen does and your laning phase isn't as abusable as before for a slight trade on your ult, which is fine because solo queue Shen tends to ult for saves rather than spicy engages.

MelledoneusApr 30, 20175 votes

I explained why the changes did not, as you imply, work down to a tee above.

mediocre because the shield was unconditional. Now it's not worth waiting for someone to be low HP to ult them because they'll most likely die before you complete the channel. That is why the ult is now more practical at full HP on someone, which is an offensive use for it. The LCS strat was doing just that for a global engage, and the purpose of the changes was to change that.

chipndip1Apr 30, 20176 votes

I mean...Idk what else you want from them, then. They reduced the value of ulting someone offensively by reducing its shield value. Now you're saying you might as well use it offensively because of the reduced shield value.

Do you WANT a shield? Maybe people shouldn't even get a shield unless they're 50% or less by the channel's start?

kile147Apr 30, 20172 votes

I mean it seems like they other option would be to reduce the channel time based on his ally's missing health. If they are low health he gets there sooner than if they are full.

chipndip1Apr 30, 20174 votes

So he becomes a global cock button or is this based on the notion that his current arrival time would be his fastest arrival time?

kile147Apr 30, 20171 votes

You could make his current arrival time (3 seconds) the fastest. Maybe make it average instead though, so that it scales between 2-4 seconds depending on how low their health is. 2 seconds should still be plenty of time to kill a low health squishy, but giving people that extra second to avoid an aggressive ult would probably mean a lot.

chipndip1Apr 30, 20172 votes

Low health squishy with a Shen ult on him?

statelesskillerApr 30, 20171 votes

depends. are they a crit adc? if its a crit adc AAing another crit adc you bet your ass its only 1 AA at level 16. ADCs tend to crit for about 1000 damage late game on a squishy

MelledoneusApr 30, 20172 votes

The solution was to make the net shield bigger when you hit that low HP threshold. Significantly bigger.

That way you either ult a full HP target for a shitty shield or you time a defensive ult right and get a kick-ass shield.

Skins ProjectMay 1, 20171 votes

So what happened was shen's shield at level 3 used to be 850.

Now it's 840 max.

I think what he's saying here is due to this change, the shield is very rarely optimal and even when it is it's less so then before, making it less of a shield to be used when someone is about to die/savior mode, but rather used the moment you see a good engage come up.

Troll for TrumpApr 30, 20171 votes

Thanks assassin update

chipndip1Apr 30, 20178 votes

Has nothing to do with the update. It was usually the same way before that too outside of some champs becoming op for a few patches due to whatever. Assassins are win lane, lose game champs unless you know how to force more than just your laning opponent into the dirt. If you can't roam and disrupt the success of other laners while winning your lane, don't play assassins.

Troll for TrumpApr 30, 20171 votes

Assassin update exacerbated the problem

chipndip1Apr 30, 20177 votes

I think we're actually at a net neutral, which is fine. All the update did was make it so that assassins have to be fed a bit before they just insta-wipe you.

Troll for TrumpApr 30, 20175 votes

Which makes them even more feast/famine, which was what the rework was supposed to prevent.

The whole goal of an assassin is to insta-wipe you. They don't help the team with innate part of their kits. They aren't tanking. They aren't sustained dmg dealers. They've got almost no hard cc.

If they can't insta-wipe you, they're useless. If they need kills to do that, that means their relevance is based on the # of kills they get

chipndip1Apr 30, 20173 votes

So you want to go back to the days of Rengar killing people faster than human reaction time? This is what you're telling me?

Best princess EUApr 30, 20173 votes

they broke shen? well that's good, so we won't see you telling riot that those changes they made on pbe will destroy shen

MelledoneusApr 30, 20179 votes

Oh, don't get me wrong, they basically destroyed what was Shen and what was left is the contradictory mess they left behind.

Any Shen player will tell you that giving him a good early game is a horrible idea and if we see nerfs for him soon, you now know why.

Best princess EUApr 30, 20175 votes

they destroyed what made shen shen a long time ago, what was left was someone weak in lane to compensate his global presence

and now, they went back on what they did and gave him a good laning phase and nerfed his ult which is you ask me a very good idea

now his shield is only strong on low hp targets which is risky to keep your ult for when they're low that's great

MelledoneusApr 30, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8L8btElW,comment-id=000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-30T16:27:14.284+0000)

they destroyed what made shen shen a long time ago, what was left was someone weak in lane to compensate his global presence

His lane has always been weak. He was a defensive top laner for a reason, and I remember that you would win trades because you would use minion aggro to your advantage with the taunt and poke with vorpal blade.

The three iconic things about Shen were Vorpal Blade, E, and ult. They kept two in, meaning that Shen was pretty much what he was before with a weirder Q and W. The global presence was offset by a weak lane, which is what we liked. Being the underdog in lane was never a bad thing because we could skillfully deny a snowball on someone like Darius or Riven, and when we hit 6 we risk our turret to help an ally win a fight.

and now, they went back on what they did and gave him a good laning phase and nerfed his ult which is you ask me a very good idea

Again, the ult changes were good until I realized the maximum shield values were pretty much the same as they were before. The old shield values were mediocre because the shield was unconditional. Now it's not worth waiting for someone to be low HP to ult them because they'll most likely die before you complete the channel. That is why the ult is now more practical at full HP on someone, which is an offensive use for it. The LCS strat was doing just that for a global engage, and the purpose kf the changes was to change that.

However, the cooldown increase and the nerfed shield values had the opposite effect.

now his shield is only strong on low hp targets which is risky to keep your ult for when they're low that's great

On paper, it's perfect. But they did not change the shield values to compensate. That is why the changes did not work as intended.

AMYS GRAVEApr 30, 20172 votes

I used to main shen too, and they have destroyed everything i liked about him.

DreadlocksMay 1, 20172 votes

These are nerfs to what is essentially Shen (Global pseudo-support tank who can duel at a moderate level) and buffs to a lane bully playstyle nobody who played Shen even asked for or remotely wanted.

Actually, thats what i missed most about shen, his ability to duel champions that would seem like a sure loss.

MelledoneusMay 1, 20171 votes

I preferred it when Shen had to play counter-attack to be effective. It made him a great anti-snowball champion.

I don't want Shen to have so much damage like this. Get rid of the Q buff.

DreadlocksMay 2, 20171 votes

And i want Shen's rework to be reverted.. but we can't all get what we want now can we :)

RaoulApr 30, 201718 votes

But he became less "Shen" and more "Any other Bruiser Tank that just kills you"... Yeah, his winrate went up, because he got a big damage buff which leads to him winning Toplane hard

TotalJerkApr 30, 201717 votes

They blatantly stated that this was a competitive nerf and a soloQ buff. Anyone who understands anything about the differences in dynamic between the two could tell how the changes did so.

QuephaApr 30, 20177 votes

It was absolutely hilarious that forum users were crying about a patch that buffed Shen's damage to champions AND the hitbox on his dash.

4th3t0sApr 30, 20172 votes

Mostly because he shouldn't be hitting that hard in 1v1's if they still want him identified as a "tank." The main complaint was the removal of bonus damage against minions; gutting his waveclear.

SinlaireApr 30, 20171 votes

yeah but i thought the wave clear hit was tuned after literally only a day on the PBE so his wave clear was only toned down mid/late game in comparison.

which is totally fair in my opinion. Shen is more of a presence split push champion than an actual lane shoving champion i think. run it down a lane, an enemy comes to stop you, you ult to an ally and shove another.

Shen doesnt need to clear waves and towers on his ow, just pull cross map leblanc jukes with R/TP and win that way.

4th3t0sApr 30, 20172 votes

Nobody that has played Shen for years wanted him to have this kind of dueling potential. Like Melledoneus has said below, he was an anti-snowball toplane tank; not a ninja-witcher juggernaut. It's not that the playstyle is bad, it's just not Shen.

MelledoneusApr 30, 20172 votes

As well as streamlining the ult for defensive purposes without actually making it good enough to be rewarding when used as such.

And A Real HieroApr 30, 20174 votes

Maybe the Shen nerfs have gone negative and any further nerfs just buff him since his stats can't get any lower.

A Bad NasusApr 30, 20173 votes

Shen is now being played with fervor in korea lol.

MrBuffingtonMay 1, 20171 votes

From OP.gg (Korean server):

Grasp of the Undying
Pick Rate79.47%
Win Rate50.42%

Courage of the Colossus
Pick Rate10.92%
Win Rate48.75%

Fervor of Battle
Pick Rate8.03%
Win Rate48.30%

The WhamboozlerApr 30, 20173 votes

I'm no expert and I'm too lazy to look up the numbers, but did his playrate go down? Playrate usually does after a nerf. This would mean that the only people still picking Shen are likely the long-time shen players who really like him and are likely good with him. Removing the casual players that refuse to play anything not perceived as "OP" can make a big difference.

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 1, 20173 votes

Weren't the changes specifically targeted at making in stronger in Solo Queue but weaker in competitive?

MordiusApr 30, 20172 votes

They never nerfed him, they buffed him.

Working as Intended

ArakadiaApr 30, 20172 votes

They did nerf him. They just buffed him more than they nerfed him.

RandomoniumApr 30, 20172 votes

And for those who are wondering his play rate has remained pretty constant so his change in win rate is not a result of a change in his play rate.

Troll for TrumpApr 30, 20172 votes

item 3070 Malzahar

Mira Arya EntheApr 30, 20172 votes

Shhhh boards must QQ

Chromatic EagleApr 30, 20171 votes

Well there's a higher winrate due to buffs but things could still have an unhealthy design.

Dianna LeveretMay 18, 20171 votes

I don't know what happened to that champ, but i just lost a game vs a Shen support, who did 600 damage at lvl 2. He reached 2, taunted + 2 basic attacks and I was dead.. His adc just did 1 auto for 90 damage and that was it... I took around 250 damage from his autos and around 300-350 damage from his abilities... Something is fishy.