So why does Vayne have 4% Attack Speed/level and one of the highest ADs at level 1 and 18 out of ADCs
Shouldn't she be dependent on items and not just base stats
##nerfvayne2015
The Bíg Ticket36 votesRightcllicking and pressing E when an enemy champion is infront of a wall take a lot of skill.
stealthfox9428 votesI swear 1 in every 4 threads is Vayne QQ.
idoki100 votesHelp us stop Vayne QQ threads: 1 Upvote = 1 prayer
Taarki17 votesOnly if that prayer is a prayer that Riot will nerf vayne.
ModAcademy Kayn12 votesHey, we'd stop the QQ threads if she was nerfed.
Problem = solved.
JustMyBassCannon26 votesOh, Falcon actually made a good point for once. A point other posters have made in the past, but that doesn't mean anything; it's still a valid point.
But her AS-level scaling is for her late-game, so nerfing that doesn't make as much sense. You want to make a dent in her early-game. Might make more sense to nerf her base AS.
I see nothing wrong with the poster-child of a late-game ADC having the strongest AD stat.
FalconPawwwwnch4 votesI always make good points. Everything I say comes true in one way or another. Just takes forums to catch on
JustMyBassCannon6 votesIn other words, you think the bus is the one catching you and not the other way around.
Reynard the ƒox8 votesya hes diamond so all of his opinions are automatically facts
FalconPawwwwnch2 votesGo through history and find me one post in which I said something that either was wrong or didn't happen
Hint: You won't
JustMyBassCannon2 votesI won't bother to go through your history and point out what you've either said wrong or late to the party?
You're right. Because you don't listen to anyone that even slightly diverges from your train of thought. I've seen you posting threads for long enough to know better than to try any sort of meaningful discussion with you directly.
FalconPawwwwnch1 votesI listen when people are worth listening to
It just so happens that a majority of the people on this forum aren't
When a Rioter posts I listen and respond, not when some random silver posts on here
JustMyBassCannon2 votesIt's hilarious that you bring ranking into discussion.
I literally only completed my provisionals so that I could say, for once, that I played enough Ranked to have any proof that I played Ranked, aside from going through my lolking.net and finding that I have some matches played in older seasons.
And you don't listen when other plats tell you that you're a fucking idiot, so I'm really not surprised that you're annoyed by a random silver saying you're really late to the party.
FalconPawwwwnch1 votesI never said ranking was the only form of credibility
Most Rioters are low ranked or unranked yet they still have a ton of credibility due to having degrees/having history balancing games, which is why I listen to them
Players who have been here since beta have a lot of credibility too because they have more experience with Riot as a company.
Being high ranked is a form of credibility, it's not the ONLY one, but it does count.
Most players on this forum are (obviously) not rioters, not high ranked, and haven't played this game for a while.
Obviously being ranked high isn't the only form of credibility; I haven't played a single ranked game this season but I was d1 in s3 and s4 and I've played the game since Season 1 and prior, so a lot of people still take me seriously
If you can convince me that there are other forms of ways to establish credibility then I will concede my viewpoint
JustMyBassCannon1 votesI never said ranking was the only form of credibility
'Twas the implication. You basically said high ranking or Rioter status required, initially.
And you're right, most players on the forums aren't high rank, aren't Rioters, and haven't played the game for long. I am not most players, but I'm in that last, more ambiguous group.
Squarefighter3 votesHonestly you shit post a lot. Remember when you said that Jax having the same base health as kog'maw was some sort of huge issue, and that we should totally compare the two champions to measure their worth? Not saying you don't make great points sometimes but often what you say comes off as just angry and not terribly thought out.
FalconPawwwwnch1 votesYou can't post seriously on here unless you post a wall of text
Too many inexperienced people that haven't been around long enough to know riot's history unless I explain some background info. Shitposting takes less effort.
Anybody that actually plays with me will tell you i'm pretty much infallible when I'm seriously posting
Here's an old gem
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3551106
Kamai1 votesHitting an ADC's base attack speed is hitting their late game, though, since they benefit less from AS increasing items. AS/level would be the better target, since that doesn't hit item scaling.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesBut it also doesn't touch her early game.
You're absolutely right that it affects her late-game. Shifting her base (0.658) by 0.01 would mean that she needs +386% AS to cap, instead of +380%. Shifting it down to 0.625 would mean she'd need +400% AS to hit the cap.
Well, minus her growth stat's +68%.
To have the same effective amount of change as reducing her base to 0.625, you could reduce her growth AS to +2.82% (caps at +48%), but that still makes absolutely no dent in her early-game, and offsets her attack speed by -0.132 at level 18 (this being the point where she either has enough attack speed that it does not matter or she has been shut down and does not matter).
Alternatively, we could not focus on her base stats, because they're not so much of a problem.
Now, this is just my opinion, but I believe the two biggest problems with Vayne are the absolute superiority of BotRK for damage output--being the only on-hit item legitimately able to out-damage Crits--and Silver Bolts' flat damage that only serves to punish squishy targets more than tanks.
TurquoiseYoshi22 votesBecause of her weak early game. You know, the one that requires a lower amount of gold to hit her 1 item powerspike than any other ADC.
Jasiwel11 votesVayne is too strong right now. If she wins lane, she will win game. If she loses lane, she'll farm for ten minutes and negate losing lane. She excels against any lane opponent that isn't Jinx, Caitlin, Kalista or Draven. Problem is that there are at least 5 other ADCs that either suffer against her or suffer from the meta and I'd argue that Caitlin/Draven have to at least snowball to outperform her.
She also has "Lee Sin Syndrome" where she stifles champion diversity in the bottom lane. If you don't pick Vayne in upper level play, then you pick Jinx because she's the only one that compares to her. This situation used to be exaggerated, now it is statistically true. Vayne has one of the highest winrates of ADCs with the highest pickrate of any champion. If the stats don't show evidence, then I don't know what does.
The issue is that Vayne doesn't require nearly as much skill as she used to and that is mostly attributed to her having free power from start to finish. Her W is %HPTrueDamage on a mobile ranged champion that builds Critical and Attack Speed. Her passive gives her gapclosing towards the enemy, her Q gives her a low cooldown gapcloser that resets on kill, her E is a self peel that adds a mark of Silver Bolts to the target AND provides a 2 second stun when against geometry. That is not hard to do AT ALL. Her Ultimate is literally making her a mobile glass cannon that allows her to go stealth for every Q she uses. She was also buffed twice before this season and armor was nerfed. There should be plenty in this paragraph that should seem perverse.
I predict Vayne nerfs after Worlds and into the preseason. I know Riot wants some stability for the single most important event of the year, but if changes don't happen afterwards then I feel like this game is going to be completely dictated by 30 champions again.
TTUPhoenix1 votesVayne is too strong right now. If she wins lane, she will win game. If she loses lane, she'll farm for ten minutes and negate losing lane. She excels against any lane opponent that isn't Jinx, Caitlin, Kalista or Draven. Problem is that there are at least 5 other ADCs that either suffer against her or suffer from the meta and I'd argue that Caitlin/Draven have to at least snowball to outperform her.
She also has "Lee Sin Syndrome" where she stifles champion diversity in the bottom lane. If you don't pick Vayne in upper level play, then you pick Jinx because she's the only one that compares to her. This situation used to be exaggerated, now it is statistically true. Vayne has one of the highest winrates of ADCs with the highest pickrate of any champion. If the stats don't show evidence, then I don't know what does.
The issue is that Vayne doesn't require nearly as much skill as she used to and that is mostly attributed to her having free power from start to finish. Her W is %HPTrueDamage on a mobile ranged champion that builds Critical and Attack Speed. Her passive gives her gapclosing towards the enemy, her Q gives her a low cooldown gapcloser that resets on kill, her E is a self peel that adds a mark of Silver Bolts to the target AND provides a 2 second stun when against geometry. That is not hard to do AT ALL. Her Ultimate is literally making her a mobile glass cannon that allows her to go stealth for every Q she uses. She was also buffed twice before this season and armor was nerfed. There should be plenty in this paragraph that should seem perverse.
I predict Vayne nerfs after Worlds and into the preseason. I know Riot wants some stability for the single most important event of the year, but if changes don't happen afterwards then I feel like this game is going to be completely dictated by 30 champions again.
is also a valid counter to Vayne. As long as they're even, she can duel Vayne on an even footing at pretty much all points of the game.
Jasiwel1 votesI've been thinking a good bit about Quinn lately too. The problem is mostly that she still has a lot of bugs and isn't entirely reliable compared to Jinx/Cait/Draaaaaven. Relying on Blind from Q and outDPSing Vayne is also not something I'm entirely keen on. I used to play Quinn a lot, but she's a champ you have to play really well and there is no screwing up allowed against Vayne.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesPlay her bruiser c:
Jasiwel1 votesYES! When I play Quinn, I play her as Fighter and it's so damn fun. TriForce/IE>BT/BotRK>BT/Defense/Defense/Boots. She may not burst like an ADC, but she can keep up a fight for a long time. Her laning is also really good against most Top lane meta champs right now.
Xonra1 votes
Mmmmmmmnnnoooooope
Maybe if the Quinn is good and the Vayne player is bad. If they are evenly skilled, then no.
TTUPhoenix1 votesMmmmmmmnnnoooooope
Maybe if the Quinn is good and the Vayne player is bad. If they are evenly skilled, then no.
I find that usually it's an even matchup. It really comes down to two questions: does Quinn land the blind? Does Vayne land the stun? Whoever lands their CC will win, especially if they avoid their opponents.
General Esdeath 10 votesTo be fair Jax gets to a point where you either: a) Lose to him 1v1 b) Send 2+ people to deal with him pushing (Leaving the rest of your team in a 3 or less vs 4 fight in mid) c) Send nobody and let him push until he wins
MorganFreemanBot3 votesTo be fair Jax gets to a point where you either: a) Lose to him 1v1 b) Send 2+ people to deal with him pushing (Leaving the rest of your team in a 3 or less vs 4 fight in mid) c) Send nobody and let him push until he wins
Or send someone that can duel him.
with 
or 
in general.
Jax is a duelist; he's great at it, it's what he's designed to do. But he's not unbeatable, other duelists can compete with him if they play intelligently. And if they have a tower next to them they can stop him dead; making it a 4v4 elsewhere and just stalling the lane.
General Esdeath 7 votesOr send someone that can duel him.
Jax is a duelist; he's great at it, it's what he's designed to do. But he's not unbeatable, other duelists can compete with him if they play intelligently. And if they have a tower next to them they can stop him dead; making it a 4v4 elsewhere and just stalling the lane.
You're gonna send a Vlad or Trynd to fight a late game Jax? You clearly never played that match up since he counters both of them once he has items.
MorganFreemanBot1 votesYou're gonna send a Vlad or Trynd to fight a late game Jax? You clearly never played that match up since he counters both of them once he has items.
Vlad used to be destroyed by jax prior to the Rylai's rework, now it's a much different match up if you buy that single item. He's easy to kite to infinity so long as you're intelligent with your pool usage. Trynd can lose to Jax, but it takes forever. He has to misplay the counter strike and then be forced to ulti, which basically resets the fight.
Also keep in mind that I mentioned, at the very least, being able to hold the tower late game against him so that the team fight you're not in is a 4v4. Both Vlad and Trynd can do that against jax with relative ease... So long as he's not horribly fed.
TenSlashTen2 votesactually jax gets shit on by a 4 item tryndamere lol really hard actually. in a straight up 1v1 all tryndamere has to do is have rage prior to engaging (which is easily built up late game and mid game when you're just afk pushing and then grouping anyway)
thornmail+ randuims + 2 damage items used to be the build that would let jax always beat tryndamere but thornmail was quite literally gutted and is absolutely worthless now against yi or tryndamere once they get any amount of lifesteal.. yeah I'm not even gonn argue.
Jax has to shit all over tryndamere in lane phase because an AFK farm jax vs and afk farm tryndamere on equal terms. Crit > any other stat in the game because it multiplies any and all attack damage bought.
qetzel6 votesDisclaimer - I believe VAyne is a bit strong at the moment (or maybe just played too much, not sure). I just don't like bad arguments.
I called bull and was right.
v4.11 Even though Jax is intended to be a champ that scales well into the late game, he's currently so well-rounded that 'scaling well' ultimately turns him into an offensive brick wall with very few defensive weaknesses.
General BASE HEALTH: 561 ⇒ 535 HEALTH PER LEVEL: +98 ⇒ +85 ARMOR PER LEVEL: +3.5 ⇒ +3.0
Nothing about being item dependent, having few defensive weaknesses.
Either way, when did Riot say that Vayne was supposed to be item dependent, or at least any more so than any other champion? Never.
Matarra4 votesits almost as if she is one of the only ad carries without an attack speed steroid
CubedJustice9 votesLucian, Urgot, Kalista, Corki, Ezreal, Caitlyn, Varus.
7ha7guy7778 votesVarus has one, it's just not on-demand or really big
DorkunedAuras14 votesEz and varus have AS from Passives, luc has double shot
CubedJustice6 votesYou're right about Varus and Ez, my bad, but I would definitely not call double shot a AS steroid.
DorkunedAuras1 voteswhile technically not a proper AS steroid, but between all his abilities resetting his AA timer, and this passive, it certainly gives him some substitute for AS.
Durzaka3 votesattack speed: Because she relies on attack speed to deal a large amount of her damage from silver bolts. And she doesnt have a massive steroid like Jax does.
AD: She because tends to build less AD than other ADCs until significantly later on in the game.
Not to mention Jax is a fucking bruiser, not an ADC.
Tails Doll6 votesShe does have a massive steroid. She has 2 AD steroids and 1 reset and self peel, and tank brusting potential. None of that jaxs has.
Durzaka5 votesI was referring to an attack speed steroid, which Jax DOES have.
Just like Trist having incredibly low ASP, but has a massive free cost attack speed steroid.
Youre making an argument for 2 champions who arent even remotely similar. Jax doesnt need self peel, it doesnt make sense for his playstyle, nor would it help him do his job. Jax has an AA steroid on his ult, a spammable AA reset on his W, a spammable gap closer, an AoE stun and AA dodge, AND tankiness from his ult.
Youre making a retarded comparison of 2 completely different champions. Just stop.
Tails Doll4 votesAnd Jax steroid has wind up and needs to connect 6 AA to get it's full effect, and decays to 0 after a certain period. And he is melee, making it a tad harder to use agaisnt ranged champions.
Durzaka4 votesSo what youre saying is different champions are different?
Gosh, who could have ever guessed that?
Tails Doll5 votesSo what you are saying is that you got out of ideas and are trying to dismiss the point.
Durzaka3 votesYou added nothing new to the conversation with your last post that I hadnt already brought up and addressed. So no, there isnt anything else to add beyond stop trying to compare and argue the balance of 2 different fucking champions.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesAttack speed is a steroid in itself since you only buy percent AS
Durzaka1 votesNo. No it isnt.
Attack speed is your base stat.
A steroid is a passive or skill that gives INCREASED base stats. AKA Trists Q, Dravens Q, Twitchs Q, etc. etc. Having high base stats does not constitute a steroid.