So.. this gimmick exp mechanic is not healthy gameplay (Mordekaiser and now Zilean)

metaworldpeace10··45 votes·3,551 views

After reading the new passive rework for Zilean (which he desperately needs) this stupid trendy XP mechanic that Riot's Champion Update team has been slapping on reworks is NOT heathy gameplay and NOT balanced at all. Imagine if this change goes through, Zilean and Mordekaiser will literally be level 6 before you are even leavl 4, and the way to get that advantage? Just sit in lane and farm minions.. Like every other lane. This advantage is HUGE and has literally no counterplay. This is not a good and "heathy" mechanic that needs to be implemented in the game. If this change goes through, Zilean joins morde in the "permaban" department and it will result in both of these champions being needed and gutted and tossed to the curbside.. Right where they were originally. I make this post because my evidence is already proven by mordes pick/ban in solo queue and competitive. Also, multiple pros have said that gaining an XP advantage brings too much hidden power and does not provide enough counterplay.

TLDR: remove this gimmick XP mechanic from the game. It will either be too strong like in mordes case or too weak like current Zilean passive.

55 Comments

Meep Man23 votes

I feel like if any mechanic is used in any reworks, one after another, a thread like this will be created.

Im actually pretty excited for the new Zilean passive myself. We dont know how strong it will be as well so we cant comment on it yet.

MisterHealYoGirl19 votes

Oh, believe me, the community can comment on it. They may not have any information at all about how it'll work out, but boy can they comment on it.

Narasimha2 votes

Welcome to the internet, where opinions matter more than facts, my opinion matters more than yours for some reason, and of course, where little children are FBI agents.

metaworldpeace103 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-13T15:26:30.315+0000)

I feel like if any mechanic is used in any reworks, one after another, a thread like this will be created.

Im actually pretty excited for the new Zilean passive myself. We dont know how strong it will be as well so we cant comment on it yet.

This isn't a new mechanic. Zilean's new passive is the exact same thing as Mordekaiser's passive XP bonus, the only difference is he stores it, then uses the bonus XP all in one burst. We've already seen what XP advantage does to the game (cough breaks mordekaiser cough)

Meep Man8 votes

Yes, but we have no idea how it works and it still has to go through a full round of PBE first. We have a blueprint, but how much XP exactly does Zilean get to give?

metaworldpeace104 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-13T15:44:34.210+0000)

Yes, but we have no idea how it works and it still has to go through a full round of PBE first. We have a blueprint, but how much XP exactly does Zilean get to give?

It doesn't matter how much XP he gives, I'm talking about the mechanic itself. It will either be too strong (think Mordekaiser) or too weak (think current Zilean's passive). It's too polarizing and is/will be difficult to keep in a balanced state. It's not about "how much" it's the actual mechanic itself that's the problem. It's not healthy and does not provide meaningful counterplay to the opponent.

Meep Man4 votes

Its impossible for something to always either be too strong or too weak. Its just are people willing to play around the balanced form of it most of the time. While I can't comment on champion interaction (Mordekaiser plus Zilean) I can say that this will probably be less of a big deal than you are making it out to be on other ADCs.

Bârd2 votes

He stores 2/3.5/5/6/12 xp every 5 seconds, at levels 1/6/11/16/18

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-13T15:26:30.315+0000)

I feel like if any mechanic is used, a thread like this will be created.

Fixed :D

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-13T15:26:30.315+0000)

I feel like if any mechanic is used in any reworks, one after another, a thread like this will be created.

Not just reworks, I remember very similar threads about Braum and Yasuo, predicting that the next 10 champions would have projectile nullification until nobody dared to play a ranged skillshot user anymore. And we can all see for ourselves how that one turned out.

Chuck Charles1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-13T15:26:30.315+0000)

I feel like if any mechanic is used in any reworks, one after another, a thread like this will be created.

Im actually pretty excited for the new Zilean passive myself. We dont know how strong it will be as well so we cant comment on it yet.

honestly this man. I looked at the numbers on the PBE today and they don't seem incredibly high. like I think it starts 2 per 5. that is an insanely low amount of exp early so pairing him with morde for the exp alone is impractical and you lose the advantage of morde anyway. morde needs a melee CC tanky support to help him push the wave and sustain. this is why alistar is the best with him.

now, it could end up being too much exp and being able to be used too often rather than at key moments which would be op, but give it a chance man. I like zilean. i mained him last season and to say he will need to be gutted just because of this new passive before we've even tried it is ridiculous.

last season he wasn't terrible either dont know where that came from. he was a beast last season as his Q had zero counterplay in lane. As a support I would rush haunting guise and sorc boots and just keep bombing enemy adc until a double bomb would kill them and then rinse repeat. it was oppressive.

Singing Lark9 votes

Everyone keeps complaining about the potential Zil + Morde bot-lane, but I don't know if it's actually going to be an issue, mostly because Morde and Zilean really don't synergize very well at all in bot-lane. It'll definitely be a pain in the butt to play against when Morde hits 6 and you're still level 4, but asides from that, I'm not sure it's worth to take Zil support for a Morde.

DragoonRuin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Livia the Rose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-10-13T17:08:50.115+0000)

Everyone keeps complaining about the potential Zil + Morde bot-lane, but I don't know if it's actually going to be an issue, mostly because Morde and Zilean really don't synergize very well at all in bot-lane. It'll definitely be a pain in the butt to play against when Morde hits 6 and you're still level 4, but asides from that, I'm not sure it's worth to take Zil support for a Morde.

I disagree, what is Morde's biggest "negative" at the moment. He's relatively slow early and has little sticking power. Well guess what, Zilean just fixxes that PERFECTLY. He can speed up Morde, hit rewind, slow down an Enemy and Morde just got free 3 X Q hits and BOOM dead enemy ADC. not to mention he'll outlevel the other adc even more, and his double bomb stun will just be Icing on the cake for Mordekaiser.

Singing Lark1 votes

It.... doesn't work like that...

Just purely looking at the numbers - the speed/slow is only 40% at level 1. The spell has a 15 second cooldown. Assuming you take 5% cdr from masteries, that'll be a 14.25 second cooldown. The speed boost is only good for 2.5 seconds. With rewind, there's still a 2 second gap between the first and second casts. You can't say Zilean can speed Morde and then slow the enemy ADC without them backing off at the clearly telegraphed play of Morde running at them really fast.

What does Morde want bot-lane? Morde works best with a hard-engage support, preferably melee for the double relic shield start to help negate early poke. He wants lockdown so he can hit all three Q's. Zilean's double bomb is probably the most unreliable stun in the game. Now, I don't know how much better it'll get with the changes but it should remain relatively the same. If anything, Zilean's bombs should be used more as a zoning tool because the stun is so hard to actually land.

When Zilean throws bombs at you, he's trying to zone you away from his ADC so his ADC can farm safely. If he can land a stun, that's also good. Morde doesn't want safe farming. He wants hard engage into kills with that third Q.

It's very hard to play a zoning support with a laner that wants hard engage and do well in lane.

Earl Eulrich4 votes

yea, i´m also worried that it´ll just lead to very abusive cases (mostly feeding xp into the jungler, having him hit 6 first for the surprise-gank+drake->snowball). Really don´t like the mechanic. Just from seeing how impactfull a missplayed lvl 2 first bot can be you just know that xp is too important a ressource to just toy around with it.

I mean he got reworked because the old global xp had been too abusive...now it´s just a more directed version of the same. Probably won´t get used for much in SoloQ, but it´ll be very disruptive for organised play.

Unlucky Number73 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-13T15:36:47.455+0000)

I mean he got reworked because the old global xp had been too abusive...now it´s just a more directed version of the same. Probably won´t get used for much in SoloQ, but it´ll be very disruptive for organised play.

No they didn't nerf zilean's old passive because it was abusive. They nerfed it because it was hidden power. same with Twisted Fate, and janna. When zilean had his global passive he used to be picked mid lane more then support. Since everyone on his team benefited from his passive they couldn't make it very powerful or meaningful, so they decided to overnerf with his passive range while they thought of a way to make his passive fun to use. This way they had time to rework his kit without it impacting any future champions they would introduce in the future.

downgrading Zilean's passive was a bandaid. now they are ready to start with the treatment.

Celeste Benal3 votes

I love playing Zilean. But his current passive is trash. This new passive is more interactive and interesting. Have you seen any numbers posted yet? I haven't. So I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that a Mord/Zilean lane will get to 6 that fast compared to any other lane.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Because everyone assumes that it will be like infinite exp and that morde+zilean will break bot lane. That bot lane on its own will fall on its face since they do not synergize AT ALL in the laning phase. Mordekaiser does not like ranged supports due to them being squishy and not good at all ins and just not going well with Morde's W. Zilean gets destroyed by all in and since that lane does not have CC aside from a slow and a very questionable stun if they have to lane against Leona and an adc they will simply one shot the Zilean and then mordekaiser is stuck 2v1ing without sustain or someone else to take the poke for him. Now that is not to say you can not have Zilean mid with Mordekaiser bot lane since they do work well together late game since Mordekaiser benefits greatly from the speed up/slow down and the ability to just run into their team without any real consequences since he will just get revived.

3tyson1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-10-13T18:00:17.873+0000)

I love playing Zilean. But his current passive is trash. This new passive is more interactive and interesting. Have you seen any numbers posted yet? I haven't. So I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that a Mord/Zilean lane will get to 6 that fast compared to any other lane.

Zilean mord cuttently get mord 6 while enemy is 4 already If you lvl slow /speedup they actualy synch verry wel cause mord whos ahead is all of a sudden verry mobile

Kynami3 votes

Just imagine what it will do for certain junglers who really really want to hit 6 fast because of power spike...

Diana , Shyvana , Skarner , Warwick

All immediately come to mind. Not to mention the mind games its going to be playing on the other team whenever Zil roams away from his lane on as for if its just to ward or something more.

Unlucky Number73 votes

{quoted}

Just imagine what it will do for certain junglers who really really want to hit 6 fast because of power spike...

Diana , Shyvana , Skarner , Warwick

All immediately come to mind. Not to mention the mind games its going to be playing on the other team whenever Zil roams away from his lane on as for if its just to ward or something more.

This. This is what they are hopping for with the new passive. at least for support zilean. In my understanding mid zilean charges up his passive faster then support zilean.

Izbiz2 votes

Before we jump to a conclusion, let's at least see the new Zilean...

Count Zubat2 votes

Seems like Riot Balance Team doesn't learn from mistakes. Mordekaiser's rework pretty much shows how toxic such mechanic can be. Whenever you ask anybody: "why Morde is banned so often?", the two most heard answers would be probably dragon ghost and free experience passive. While dragon can be nerfed stats wise, there's not really too much you can do to make an exp mechanic balanced, it will be either OP or completely useless. But well, Riot seems to not care. Morde was changed from one of the most underplayed champions into perma ban champion, maybe they want to see if they are able to do the same thing again with another champ?

Unlucky Number72 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-10-13T20:02:20.385+0000)

Seems like Riot Balance Team doesn't learn from mistakes. Mordekaiser's rework pretty much shows how toxic such mechanic can be. Whenever you ask anybody: "why Morde is banned so often?", the two most heard answers would be probably dragon ghost and free experience passive. While dragon can be nerfed stats wise, there's not really too much you can do to make an exp mechanic balanced, it will be either OP or completely useless. But well, Riot seems to not care. Morde was changed from one of the most underplayed champions into perma ban champion, maybe they want to see if they are able to do the same thing again with another champ?

it's not impossible to balance. if his w's passive is too strong they can change how much exp it gives him. they've said as much.

However they haven't yet because they still think he's in a good place.

Remlap12231 votes

They're wrong, Morde has one of the worst reworks in the game, and his passive is one of the most toxic things. It gives him an unfair advantage over his opponents simply by playing the game. This is worse than Cho'Gath's passive in with Cho'Gath you actually have to properly last hit, nonono, with Morde, all you have to do is sit in bot lane and wait until you hit level 6. This is just pure cheese on level of release Gangplank and AP Master Yi.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlucky Number7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-10-13T20:13:14.976+0000)

it's not impossible to balance. if his w's passive is too strong they can change how much exp it gives him. they've said as much.

However they haven't yet because they still think he's in a good place.

The funny part is, it's just going to warp other champions that aren't meant to level that fast. He is still going to be trash. He can just Gimmick junglers and morde.

Aezanthya1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlucky Number7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-10-13T20:13:14.976+0000)

it's not impossible to balance. if his w's passive is too strong they can change how much exp it gives him. they've said as much.

However they haven't yet because they still think he's in a good place.

LOL can you stop blindly believing and following everything Riot says ?

"he's in a good place."

Yeah he truly is. Permabanned/pick in soloqueue and LCS/worlds. "He's in a good place."

Unlucky Number71 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mega Minun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JxirWlH,comment-id=000800000002,timestamp=2015-10-14T09:23:29.633+0000)

LOL can you stop blindly believing and following everything Riot says ?

"he's in a good place."

Yeah he truly is. Permabanned/pick in soloqueue and LCS/worlds. "He's in a good place."

i never said he was in a good place. i said that riot believes he's in a good place.

Zavern2 votes

While it may be better than his current passive, it still poses the major problem of his current passive; IT HAS NO USEFULNESS AT LEVEL 18!!!

Unlucky Number76 votes

{quoted}

While it may be better than his current passive, it still poses the major problem of his current passive; IT HAS NO USEFULNESS AT LEVEL 18!!!

i'm ok with that. not all games end with both teams at lev 18

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

False. It has no usefulness when your ENTIRE team is level 18. When was the last time your support ended up level 18 before a 35 minute plus game? There are many more passives in the game that are also useless late in the game so I do not understand why everyone always brings up Zilean Passive as being a new phenomenon. Twisted Fate's passive is completely useless when he is full build. Veigar/Lissandra passive are both not very good after 35 minutes when its just constant teamfights where you will basically be full mana anyway. Graves and Wukong passives are just lobs of stats that could have easily just been thrown into their base/scaling armor/mr and had a real passive to work with.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Actually, the Zilean, after the change, will not be able to use the EXP on himself. That means that after the jungler (probably the last to hit 18) gets to Level 18, the Zilean can't use the passive.

Decrit1 votes

well, zilean can be mid too. Also in the cas ehe is support then he makes a far better use of that xp since he will probably share it with the carry

IcyPepper2 votes

I can understand Zilean.

Mordekaiser's exp passive is sincerely breaking the game's rules to get an unfair advantage since they can't actually balance a juggernaut going bot lane. That requires some itemization changes as well as champion changes.

Maybe with the ADC rework coming soon, ADC's can come and go from bot lane and we can see more variety down there? Who knows.

Remlap12231 votes

Giving Mordekaiser a bullshit passive to promote diversity made the game more toxic, not improved the health. I mean, ffs, he was almost permabanned at worlds because nobody wants to deal with his shit because the XP passive is so goddamn broken.

You could literally throw any melee champion that passive bot lane and they'd be instantly viable because they get an unfair advantage for simply playing the game. Not even playing well, you can miss a fuckton of CS and still hit level 6 while your opponent is still level four.

Morde + Zilean bot with XP quints and 21/9/0 and 9/0/21 masteries will be the new league cheese. Worse than Black Cleavers, worse than release Gangplank with full crit runes, worse than AP Master Yi. It will literally not be an exaggeration that Morde will hit level 18 by twenty minutes.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

It's definitely an improvement over his current passive.

Do you have a jungler dependent on hitting level 6/11/16? Give them some bonus experience to reach it faster.

If one of your allies behind on levels? Help them catch up.

Want to help your top-laner snowball? Give them an experience advantage.

It lets you store up experience instead of requiring the ally stay near you. This means that you can roam or solo-lane without losing potential experience for your team.

I'm not arguing that it's the best passive he could have; I'm just saying that it may be better than his current passive.

Remlap12232 votes

This passive is actually really cool, and can make some pretty interesting plays. Having support Zilean giving XP to a level 5 jungle Gragas gank and having him unexpectedly dump an ult on bot lane could make some pretty clutch plays.

The issue here is not Zilean, it's Mordekaiser and his retarded W passive. Basically, if Mordekaiser wasn't broken enough bot lane right now, this will without question throw his winrate past Skarner's, which is ridiculous considering Skarner had the HIGHEST WINRATE IN LEAGUE'S HISTORY. Weedwick didn't have this high of a winrate, and I can guarantee that sticking XP quints on Zilean and Morde bot lane will be the newest League cheese.

Even AP Master Yi is rolling in his grave thinking about this.

Ultîma2 votes

Sorry to say, but Mordekaiser and Zilean are not comparable characters with comparable kits. By that extension I really don't think there is any evidence to suggest Zilean's new passive will be "unhealthy". Currently Zilean's passive is completely ineffectual - I'm looking forward to see how this new mechanic will play out.

THESuperStuntMan1 votes

Agree. It's obvious that Morde is OP, but that's not just because of the bonus XP. Saying bonus XP on a completely different champion is "not healthy" is unfair. I think Zilean's new passive is a cool new way to use the bonus xp.

WarlockLaw2 votes

They aren't just slapping it onto Zilean, his passive has always been an exp advantage they are just changing how it does that.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Was so happy when I heard he was getting a new passive. Disappointed to see its still an XP gain passive, wish they would just scrap XP boost entirely and maybe give him something that reduces allied cooldowns

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

except that will have even more problems involved since it would take a large number to be noticeable to the players and at that point it is already too far. There is a reason Sona got reworked the first time.

Xengre1 votes

I am concerned this exp bonus is going to be further stacked with Mordekaier's EXP advantage. Now might be the time to also consider exp masteries or runes further pushing the envelope.

Infiny Mage1 votes

I'll just rofl if zilean becomes ban worthy after just this passive rework.

TraderDerp1 votes

Morde-Zil sucks lol, sure it's fun to be 3 levels ahead, but it's much better to have someone like Leona that can set them up for you.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Why cant we have champs that are worth picking for different things? Why can't i pick Zilean knowing i will bring level advantage prowess to my team? Diversty people.

xFrostKnightx1 votes

_Zilean stores time as Experience at a rate of [2/3.5/5/6/12 at levels 1/6/11/16/18 based on level] per 5 seconds. _ **You start gaining experience 120 seconds into the game. **

8-9 minutes is when Bot lane hit's lvl 6 You need, 2400 total to be lvl6

You get 6-7 minutes of passive exp before the enemy and you both reach lvl 6. 24 exp per minute 24 x 6-7 = 144 - 168 exp Before we calculate how much sooner this get us lvl6

Two champions each gain 65.2% (one champions net's 100%) - I will discuss Mord below

One Wave Solo EXP Duo EXP
Melee Minion = 59 Exp x3 38 Exp Caster Minion = 29 Exp x3 19 Exp Siege Minion = 92 Exp x3 60 Exp

Total exp gained = 231
[You have roughly 90-98 exp to give to mord by the time you can use the Passive on him, this is equal to 1 siege minion/ 3 casters/ 1.8 melee. Still feel like a massive gain? ]

Siege spawns every 1:30minutes before 20minutes and starts it's first spawn at 3minutes You get 4 canon minions by 9min

at 9:00 (which will be the 15th wave, with the 9:00 canon spawning at base) You have a total of 2,061 Exp and 156 Zilean Passive Exp

So on the final Wave (When the 9:00 min wave reaches Lane) Zilean has to get the entire wave to have just enough to boots him and his adc into lvl6 So they get lvl6 1 wave early. The other Side hitting lvl 6 in 3 minion kills.

Now we factor laning lvl1-6 for Zilean and an ADC. To begin with, it's not in zilean's favor granted his high mana costs to spam bombs and his stun is near impossible to pull on on Gold+ players who are willing to trade a Flash to dodge the cc in exchange for a kill. Against say a Leona or thresh, Zilean is massively outplayed in terms of his ability to support well during laning phase. So you are trading off % chance to win a lane in exchange to get lvl6 only 30 seconds faster than the enemy lamers. Which won't matter because they will lose maybe 2-7 cs at most during this time backing off, then they hit lvl 6. Suddenly they've got a more useful Support Ult.

Now considering how Zileans ult is most Powerful/successful in team fights and under towers. If your adc dies from a gank, they are not getting out because by the time the stasis ends and they revive with 600hp. It will just as quickly vanish.

The true strength of Zileans passive is in Midgame not Early, as the effects are literally a 3 minion advantage in lane before the enemy hit's lvl 6.

Oh and I thought I should mention, when a Zilean lane hit's lvl 6, he does not have the capability to suddenly turn on their enemies in comparison to other Supports who insta-cc lock you down. - Season 1-4 Zilean player

Zilean gave more Exp with his current 8% exp shared than this new one before you hit lvl6, so shut all this Bullshit "Their lvl 6 when we're lvl 4" crap.

New Zilean Passive 156 Exp (by lvl 6) Old Zilean Passive 164 Exp (by lvl 6)

Solidair31 votes

On morde yes, it is too much. On Zilean I won't judge yet until I see it for myself.

Maligaro Spike1 votes

zilean passive is the same,just a burst of XP instead of increased XP gain,it will be stronger because you will keep stacking XP even when not nearby an ally

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Couldn't agree more. Simple concept. Riot needs to seriously consider what they're doing here... it's real easy to abuse.

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