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Baron is a pushover and the reward massively out weights the risk

Hibeki··70 votes·2,967 views

Baron isnt even a threat, it dies in single didget seconds (im not even fucking joking) and just auto wins you the game now with banner.

If your team is even slightly out of position (Im talking red buff here with no blast plant) they just kill it before you get there, fight you with full health and an instant 10k gold lead in stats, then just auto win because you cant stop a push.

Let me just sit here as a mid laner and auto this banner/baron siege minion to death. Mmm, 50 damage auto attacks for a 2k health pool! That'll get the job done!

If im the last one alive, and they have one enemy, i literally cannot stop the push to death. It would take over a solid minute of auto attacks to kill it and they will just kite me around as im a mage.

Baron buff is brokenly overpowered

Baron himself might as well be a melee minion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgnzq6gLET8&feature=youtu.be

Heres the game in question. Nautilus lost barely any health and we three manned this thing at 21 minutes, two items, in less than 20 seconds.

70 Comments

Fear the Kayn28 votes

Yea I think Baron should be able to destroy people. As in if you don't have 5 people, or an insanely fed ADC/APC, Baron will poop on you. The buff is extremely strong for how ezpz it is, especially late game.

Hethalean10 votes

It's pretty hadr if the other team is contesting you on it.

Fear the Kayn5 votes

It's only hard because of smite steals. IMO, Baron should have the damage output of at least a fed ADC.

Hethalean11 votes

It gradually steals all of your defenses, so if the enemy team is there, theyr'e going to be able to wipe you is the thing.

Hibeki1 votes

it gradually steals at max like 20 of each

LemurKick5 votes

Each stack reduces armor and MR by .5, stacking up to 100 times.

kagepaladin3 votes

I mean that is a total of 50 armour and in the end if you got a maokai/rammus/zac/sejuani insert other random tank jungler/support/top laner here it really doesn't matter to them if they sit their front lining if for example you had a orianna mid vayne bot with a sona they just sit back poke and never really have to worry about anything especially if vayne has bork and rageblade it could be taken before the enemy even has a chance.

xelaker1 votes

baron kills both teams?

xelaker26 votes

literally everything is hard if 5 champs are trying to stop you...

Hethalean9 votes

That is kind of the point. It's a buff that is designed to be contested. If you are letting it just go for free, then that's a decision that might not aid a win.

Hibeki23 votes

theres a difference between letting it go for free

and not even being able to contest it because its so piss easy they could breathe on it and it dies

Just because it should be contested doesnt make it balanced

Hethalean5 votes

Just because a lot of low elo players don't know how to setup/expect/contest baron doesn't mean it's OP. It can be taken relatively quickly late game, but that's something people need to consider during their plays.

Hibeki14 votes

oh fuckin please, literally last game i took baron at 21 minutes in under 20 seconds.

With a shyvana, a nautilus and an ekko.

Its too fucking weak. End of story.

RenownedWheat423 votes

Save a clip, put it on youtube, and show us. I wanna see.

Hibeki1 votes

I dont know how to save portions of a replay, but you can go on my op.gg and download the replay I think

RenownedWheat423 votes

Profile > Match History > find the match > click the icon of the arrow on the far right side of the corresponding match.

Once it's downloaded it turns into a "play" button. Click that to watch the replay > find the baron play > press the record button at the start and end of the play.

Once you've ended the recording, it'll save to a location that you can view by going to profile > highlights and selecting the clip in question, then the folder icon (which should say, Show Highlight in File Browser).

Use that info to find the clip when uploading to youtube.

Pretty simple process. Go ahead and show us once you figure it out.

Hibeki7 votes

Ah, I figured out how to record replays. Its uploading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgnzq6gLET8&feature=youtu.be

Yes I had two tank shredding items. It still shouldn't be possible.

RenownedWheat424 votes

I mean, this shows you were all fed as a motherfucker with a huge kill/tower/gold lead. Plus, you've got a mountain drake. With those circumstances being taken into consideration, that makes a ton of sense. This game was 100% free to begin with.

I'll upload a not-hugely-one-sided example in a bit, for comparison.

Hibeki8 votes

I had two items. thats it. Core item and one extra item.

At no point ever should this be possible on a buff that has that high a reward.

RenownedWheat426 votes

I disagree. You're incredibly ahead, Shyv's damage is insane, you've got a mountain, they can't even contest - everything lines up pretty easily for you.

Here's an example of when my team tried to three-man it from 2k behind at 30 min. In 20 sec we get it to not even half HP, and then we're all killed. Our play was poor, but if we could just absolutely demolish it in under 30 sec and take no damage, then this wouldn't have happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHkMo3kBXio&feature=youtu.be

Hibeki12 votes

Theres a massive difference here.

One, they played it terribly.

two, they had no tank

three, didnt really have the best DPS to shrink it down with.

The point is, this isn't a norm. Baron's reward was steadily buffed and buffed and buffed and his durability was never really buffed either with all this power creep.

Check back to earlier times and this was NEVER possible unless you were like, a nunu or fiddlesticks.

Being BEHIND gold is not the same extreme as being AHEAD gold. Being ahead gives you marginal more gold than normal, about as much as a kill or an objective. In a 10k gold lead, about 3k of that is actual gold gain from the advantage, the 7k is how much they are behind.

When ahead, your stats are slightly better than normal. When behind your stats are drastically worse than normal.

I dont give a single fuck if im 10000000 million gold ahead, if this buff is supposed to have counterplay then the reward needs nerfed. If its not supposed to have counterplay then nerf the baron. If you aren't going to change either, just make it blow up the enemy nexus then since its not supposed to have counterplay. There's no point in having a buff at that point.

Hibeki4 votes

This isn't even extremes. An extreme would be a time baron reasonably dies after being started.

Every single game it dies in less than 20 seconds with bare minimum effort.

Hibeki5 votes

Let me reiterate.

If you replaced swain with someone who actually built defensive items

and replaced corki with an actual adc and not a mid laner

you would have gotten it.

Poske2 votes

10k LEAD... this thread is a joke right?

Hibeki2 votes

A lead is to term the amount of gold difference between the winning team and the losing team.

Like I said, You aren't 10k gold ahead of normal. You're about 3k gold ahead of normal. The enemy team is 7k down more than normal.

Xavanic1 votes

{quoted}

20 seconds to TAKE BARON IS EXTREMLY FKING SLOW. LIKE EXTREMLY Your thread just has no point

I dont understand what your goal is with this thread at all

True, but ive taken baron in 4 seconds

Spank the Fox9 votes

I mean, your game was a complete stomp with a 25-9 spread in 22 mins.

Baron just turned a 30 min game into 22 mins.

Hibeki8 votes

The problem isnt that baron made the game end faster.

Its that it got 3 manned in less than 20 seconds at 21 minutes

2Charmnot2Charm3 votes

With a shyvana

Found the problem

Poske1 votes

UNDER 20 SECONDS?

15 seconds at best here in EU

And both of this intervals are lenghty

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Its too fucking weak. End of story.

Learn how the game works, before you make suggestions on how to balance it pls.

Hibeki2 votes

Maybe you should learn how the game works if you think its always been this way.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you should learn how the game works if you think its always been this way.

Barons been this weak for as long as i've been play like 2 1/2 years The reward was buffed in 8.4 i'm aware. Based on your previous comments you didn't know Baron scales HP and Damage as the game goes on. If your team had a more normal gold total say 33-35k and didn't have full vision control you wouldn't be able to take baron this easy. Thus baron is only "easy" in a complete stompfest and nothing is wrong with that.

DeusVult1 votes

What OP is talking about is when the other team is ahead and they strangle vision and send 3 people mid/bot while the jungler+ADC do baron in a heartbeat.

Or when Cass solos Elder drag...

Or when you have 2 mountains with Jynx + Azir and the baron dies before the other team can even react...

Hethalean1 votes

I know. My point was that Baron is a buff that you need to be proactive. If you're having to respond to it, you probably didn't plan optimally. Baron can't be so tough that it is an auto loss for the team taking it first. If it is too tough, it does too much damage to those doing it, thus disincentivizing (spell?? seems wrong) doing it until an ace at which point it doesn't matter how tough it is.

Late For Tea2 votes

{quoted}

It's pretty hadr if the other team is contesting you on it.

The issue is that if you can get a pick on 1-2 opponents, they often cannot contest. You practically get a free baron, which with recent buffs, is so strong that it gives you a massive advantage in winning the game. Getting 1-2 picks shouldn't be able to do that.

A team also shouldn't be able to shred baron in literally 3 seconds.

Pika Fox5 votes

Hes not supposed to be a threat. The biggest threat about baron is supposed to be his resist shredding so if the enemy contests youre in a slightly worse spot.

The vid also has a shyv, one of the fastest jungle clearers, especially late game. Working as intended.

Hibeki1 votes

Replace shyv with any real adc and you still take it just as fast. Just because a dedicated DPS is here doesn't mean that hes not weak as fuck

Pika Fox1 votes

Hes not supposed to be strong. Baron isnt supposed to be a challenge, its supposed to be an objective to kill.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

Replace shyv with any real adc and you still take it just as fast. Just because a dedicated DPS is here doesn't mean that hes not weak as fuck

You had item 3153 item 1419 only adcs that build item 3153 that would do similar damage. Which right now is Kalista

Hibeki1 votes

ADC's also have 600+ damage crits at a faster rate which shyvana doesnt. Anecdotal fallacies!

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

ADC's also have 600+ damage crits at a faster rate which shyvana doesnt. Anecdotal fallacies!

No, Baron has 120 armor and 70 mr So he takes significantly more from magic damage. He also has lots of HP so your on hit is doing full and chopping him down.

120 Armor is 55% Dmg reduction Tristana at level 12 with item 3006 item 3031 item 3087 is 167 AD She would do 91 dmg per attack for non crits and 227 per crit. With 50% crit chance leaving the avg hit at 160. Trist has a base attack speed of .656 and 70% in items and 18% from levels leaving here with 1.23 attacks per second without Q active or 196 Damage per second when her Q isn't active. It would take her 51 one seconds without damage sources to kill baron solo... With her Q maxed and active she gets another 110%(this is the best attack steroid for killing baron and why i use trist) she would have an attack speed of 1.95 and would do 312 DPS or 32 seconds to 100-0 baron. Her Q is active for 7 seconds out of 16 at max rank meaning giving her 43.75% up time Giving her sustained DPS to baron about 227 which is around half of what Shyvana is doing in the video. Her 100-0 would be closer to 40seconds. Call it 30-35 depending on the helpers and drakes. You're doing like 400DPS in the video. Also you attack faster then Trist would at that point and twin bite one point away from maxed you have the better attack steroid.

TL:DR The weakest ADCs will take over twice as long as you did in this game to kill baron. The strongest ADC with crit build will take an extra 15 seconds or so to kill baron with the same gold income.

SpaghettiVase4 votes

Obviously Baron is as weak as it is to try and end games fast (especially pro games) but what's insane is when 2 people can take it at 20-25 minutes. If you have a soraka and an adc with item 3153 you can easily take it while the rest of your team prevents any possibility for the other team to contest it.

RainbowIcee4 votes

While it doesn't auto win you the game the Dragon buffs such as mountain and infernal drank are too good to be able to be solo'd. Dragon needs to be more threatening too. The only one that's in a good spot is herald because it's such a meat bag that it takes long enough to kill it that people would notice or are entirely neglecting that area for at least a hot minute.

BestPudgeNA4 votes

{quoted}

Heres the game in question. Nautilus lost barely any health and we three manned this thing at 21 minutes, two items, in less than 20 seconds.

Baron gets more HP and Damage the longer the game goes. He is actually much weaker at 21 mins with a lead like that then a 30 mins with those same items in a much more even game.

You're up 12 kills , 7 towers, 2 drakes 1 being a mountain and have full vision control. Do you really feel like there is any point of this game getting dragged out?

The alternative is to let teams turtle and wave clear for 35 mins and eventually outscale.

420 Soraka2 votes

I do agree that Baron being taken down too easily with the buff it gives you is something that should be looked into sooner rather than later. Baron team fights are usually game changing and overall intense, I think Riot can make the whole scenery a little more dramatic. By that I mean have Baron push people away like dragon does when you first engage it, have it tangle champions and pull them in or toss them away like Poppy's ult, or drown them or bubble them like nami for a few seconds. The reason I add these dramatic effects is because it would make Baron more contestable, especially for the team that's severely behind. It sucks when you're really behind and you know you can't do much about the enemy team taking Baron. It would also make baron calls a lot more riskier overall.

LordGeovanni2 votes

I also think that ranged damage carries have a disproportionate Risk versus reward

Kyunsei1 votes

Mountain drake numbers on Nashor :

  1. You are physical damage dealer, you don't tank Nashor
  2. Physical, you tank Nashor
  3. Magical, you don't tank
  4. Magical, you tank
  1. each mountain drake increase your damage by 21.7 %
  2. each mountain increase your damage by 43.4 %
  3. each mountain increase your damage by 16.9 %
  4. each mountain increase your damage by 33.3 %
Trias0002 votes

Where did you get those numbers from?

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

I actually agree with this. If baron is meant to close out games to keep them from being too long. Then add back more counter play to the actually boss AND/OR to stealing. (Personally I liked when baron was weaker because if you KNOW that baron means that they will win with a 1.5k gold leap and huge buffs, who wants to sit through a loosing game?{My point is, even having baron should still have counter play, I digress.}).

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