Usability of Aatrox's Q

The Ecdysiast··1 votes·2,233 views

It seems pretty clear, as people are learning to use the Aatrox changes, that he's actually going to end up getting another nerf pretty soon.

But one thing that seems to elude the design team (or the balance team? Not sure who deals with mechanical changes), is giving Aatrox a slight QOL change to the usability of his Q.

What if he could move, at walking speed, during the cast? Similar to Taric's E or Darius's Q. And the E would be reserved for people who go further than that more quickly.

10 Comments

El Condor Pasa4 votes

Sounds like less of a QoL/usability change and more like a straight up buff. The whole point of his Q is managing the spacing on the sweet spots. Being allowed to walk during cast trivializes the ability.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Condor Pasa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ENxE0L9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-08T04:29:28.877+0000)

Sounds like less of a QoL/usability change and more like a straight up buff. The whole point of his Q is managing the spacing on the sweet spots. Being allowed to walk during cast trivializes the ability.

Not really. Considering the vast majority of champions can either walk or dash/blink away from it.

El Condor Pasa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ENxE0L9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-08T05:23:42.931+0000)

Considering the vast majority of champions can either walk or dash/blink away from it.

Thats where managing the spacing comes into play. If someone is walking away, they are either good at dodging or the aatrox player sucks at aiming and managing the Q spacing. If someone is dashing/blinking away, then they just burned a cooldown.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Condor Pasa,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ENxE0L9,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-08T05:49:18.104+0000)

Thats where managing the spacing comes into play. If someone is walking away, they are either good at dodging or the aatrox player sucks at aiming and managing the Q spacing. If someone is dashing/blinking away, then they just burned a cooldown.

No, they're not "good" at dodging. They just.. play the game. It's not at all hard to dodge the sweet spot. If someone is dashing away, they're using their ability for what it is meant for. You can't just say they "burned" a cooldown by using it as intended. Nevermind the fact every single other dash or blink in the game is longer than Aatrox's, so you have to be pretty terrible to get hit by his Q when you have one.

XJ999999999999993 votes

idk if hes broken. time will tell. if he does need a nerf make it so only healing sources from aatrox are increased by his ult.

he is countered by killing him before he kills you in a team fight, and healing reduction.

the ult change was made so that even if you build healing reduction, he still heals for 100% of the health he would've gotten back if he didn't have ult.

Spooks and Null1 votes

"why not give a small QoL" A change which fundamentally warps the entire kit of Aatrox and removes much of the strategy, counterplay, and skill present in the usage of an ability and warps the entire champion's kit

Kek

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Kek

Oh, right, forgot Darius's Q is literally impossible to dodge. Silly me.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Spooks and Null1 votes

By your logic that means that adding the ability to move during Xerath Ult, Nunu Ult, Fizz E, Katarina R, Gnar W, Illaoi Q, Blitz Q, Sion Q, Miss Fortune R, and many others would be fine because "lmao just dodge it, its not impossible to dodge"

Ever considered that the fact that these abilities prevent you moving for a reason? You're supposed to be vulnerable when using them and to give enemies a clear warning, along with the fact that they are powerful skills that need more outplay potential than "lol just dodge it", since sometimes dodging Aatrox's Q doesnt even save you from his follow up Q2 or his W chain grab, since his kit is designed around kiting and zoning. Theres also something to be said for the fact that if you view it that way, then Aatrox is literally using a skill to force you to move in a position, which his team can exploit with their own skills... Oh hey yeah... That explains why he was so prevalent in pro... huh! Who woulda thought?

The fundamental difference between Darius' Q and Aatrox's Q is that Aatrox's Q IS Aatrox. Tho darius relies heavily on his Q to set up and heal during a fight, him missing it isn't going to completely cripple him in a fight because its an ability that isn't going to completely ruin your chance in a fight. When aatrox manages to hit you with a Q, then he can follow up into a W + Q combo and permalock you down. Aatrox's combo is very good at feeding into itself because of the way that his W and Q interact. Y'know how Zoe Bubble feels like shit because it gives you 0.75 seconds of time to wait before you get fucked? Its the same deal here. Aatrox's combo is slow but its often a kill confirm if you're able to use it correctly, making it even MORE of a kill confirm is just focusing him into this idea of being an immobile assassin. The reason they took away double E was because it gave opponents too little chance to play around Aatrox, because believe it or not, not all champions can feesibly dodge Aatrox's Q and W combos with his E up, and its incredibly unfair to design a champion around the idea of "if you dont have a mobility skill and/or are slow, you lose".

Theres a big difference between going from "cant move" to "moving". Its not just a straight change like 50 damage to 60 damage, this is a change that goes from nothing into something thats very prevalent. Locking you out of movement during his Q is an intentional choice that allows Riot to give the ability MORE POWER, because it is a weakness of the ability. Right now the skill has a 431% AD Ratio if you hit all 3 sweet spots at a Rank 5 Q. Thats a lot of power, and its also three seperate knockups, aoe mind you, with decent range. This is a very strong fucking skill, but the tradeoff is that if you miss, youre left vulnerable due to your limited movement. The fact that you can dodge it doesnt dimish that its power comes from the fact that he HAS it.

Put it this way. The pressure of Fiora having her W up means you play around her W. You wouldnt play against Fiora with her W on CD as you would with it not on CD. you intentionally play around it. The same thing can be said for Aatrox's lack of movement during Q. It gives opponents ways to react and position themselves PREEMPTIVELY toward the ability, as playing against Aatrox with a skill like that fundamentally changes how you approach the lane.

You clearly dont play Aatrox enough to understand how this would impact the champion (I can confirm this from your match history too). Allowing a champion to move their skillshot mid-cast is a big fucking deal, and youre not accounting for how much gameplay difference it adds. Riot doesn't design champions "just cuz". They didnt not-allow him to move during Q "just cuz", it was an intentional choice to give his kit some weaknesses that allow him to be played around by certain champions.

Fun Fact. Back in the day, before the juggernaut update of Season 5, Darius' Q had no wind up and was an instant AOE damage spell. it was actually NERFED to have a cast time and allow you to move during it. The ability was instant and had much less of an effect. This was a pretty drastic change, and this it was compensated in a couple of ways. The first was that it's damage was increased and a heal mechanic was added to the ability. The delay on the ability was present to allow enemies (and even darius) to play around opponents. Its pretty misleading to compare Darius' Q to Aatrox's Q. One of them is a pure damage spell on a champion with absolutely no range and terrible mobility without even a movespeed buff. The other is a three part damage aoe with a conditional increase and aoe knockup with three different hitboxes and increasing damage.

Youre equating the value of a spell which has higher damage, higher range, a hard crowd control effect and also has the entire champion's kit designed around it, to an ability that deals damage and just speeds up your damage combo. You fundamentally don't understand how to design or balance a game if you genuinely, unironically think that its a good idea to allow Aatrox to move during his Q. It warps the entire way that his kit is designed to function.

Also uh, You realize that allowing him to move during Q means he can also just... reposition and more around for free right? Or even use his Q while escaping? Or the fact that his ult gives him a massive movement speed increase during it? Its not just going to allow him to hit his Q more often, its going to allow him to be a tonne more mobile, for a champion who's already got a pretty diverse kit and whom's major weakness is his immobility. You're basically asking to remove his weakness without realizing that its a weakness. QoL is a change like adding Annie's passive stacks below her mana bar or adding a small ring around teemo's shrooms to indicate their hitbox range, not changing an ability's mechanics entirely.

TL;DR: YOU DONT PLAY AATROX NOR UNDERSTAND HIM, PLEASE DONT ACT LIKE YOU DO, Moving during Aatrox's Q is a much bigger deal than Darius Q. Moving in general is a big deal. Going from not moving to moving is a very large change, not just a binary state switch.

I'd like a bit more of a response than just a "Heh got 'em" without realizing how silly it makes you look.[slayer-pantheon-popcorn] EDIT: Jesus this sounded a lot more aggressive than it should of. Typed this up in the morning. Apologies lol.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Evidently you proved yourself completely unreliable with the first paragraph, so congratulations.

Kinda sucks when a new player who doesn't understand a champ tries to point that at me, but whatever.

Spooks and Null1 votes

Imagine actually being so terrible at discussion that you attempt to strawman an old-time player who's mained Aatrox since Season 3 as a new player without even addressing criticisms.

You've already lost this mate. You can't even be bothered to respond. you fundamentally don't understand Aatrox's kit and you're attempting to push a narrative that doesn't align with what any of us Aatrox players actually think. Actually respond instead of trying to dodge and run away.

I have no idea why you'd start a discussion about this topic and then refuse to engage in conversation when I'm offering you some quality arguments and sound reasoning. I guess people just chat shit and don't like their opinions on a champion that they don't play much challenged by a person whos very dedicated to that champion.

So here, I'll say it again. Here is why Aatrox can't move during his Q. Aatrox's Q, the Darkin blade, has been balanced around being his main, primary damage dealing skill, but it has powerful aspects to it like it's range and cc, along with it's Aoe and recastability. The choice to prevent Aatrox moving during it's cast is done to allow them to make the damage, range and cc as good as it is, without sacrificing the numbers. If they allowed him to move during it, they would have to nerf the ability's stats and numbers to compensate for the major mobility buff this allows him.

Please respond intelligently instead of just dodging any challenging comments you get, you're just making yourself look foolish.

On a side note. At the very least, I've got your limited run snowdown icon. So y'know. If I'm a new player, you're a new player.

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