Supports and CDR. And the issue with Tank Supports.

ChaddyFantome··9 votes·1,863 views

My last post was about Utility scaling on enchanters and how it can be fixed,

( http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/p0oQEPEG-enchanter-support-scaling-the-ultimate-conundrum-and-how-it-can-be-fixed )

but now I will address the issues with the discrepancy of CDR, mostly delving on Tank Supports. as well.

You see it is quite to odd state of affairs. While Enchanters like Sona Lulu Janna Nami Soraka have the issue of always overcapping past 45% CDR on every build because their items all needlessly have it, resulting in tons of wasted gold on literally pointless stats, Tank supports such as Leona Braum Taric Alistar and utility supports like Thresh Blitzcrank Bard actually have an issue getting any.

Outside of item 3190 , which is currently and has been pretty much a must buy item on every support anyway, Tank Supports actually struggle to build CDR as their items don't really have it.

Since Tank supports primarily have piggy back of of the cheaper end of the regular tank items like , they find themselves without any CDR else they have to give up actually being anythign close to tanky.

Tank Support centic items item 3190 item 3800 item 3401/item 2303

This means that tank supports often have to dip in to the more expense straight tank items just to do their job, let alone get the CDR they need to Support. item 3143 item 3075 item 3025 item 3110 item 3083 item 3065 item 3056 (lol-ohmrecker-kek)

So we have Enchanters with too much CDR item 3158 item 3174 item 3050 item 3504 item 3222 item 2301/item 3092 and item 3060 /item 3190

And Tanks with none. item 3190 item 3401 ...

Part of the problem is it is hard to give tank supports items that are cheap with a lot of CDR to let them do their job without it being abused by top laners, similar to Enchanters and Mages with AP.

So a similar solution needs to be made. Tank Supports need scalings on stats beyond just straight Tank stats like HP/ Armor/ MR, so that items made towards them can't be abused.

Riot is introducing a new Tank Support item Called Knights Vow and is tuning Frozen Heart towards being more of a Support Tank item as opposed to a Straight tank item (tho I feel simply reducing the cost is not the wisest move), which are steps in the right direction but I don't think they will solve it long term as these CAN be abused by straight tanks easily.

In the case of Knight's Vow, the idea is that the benefits don't really kick in because you get the most of it With a partner, but this item will easily be bought mid to lane game when grouping starts, making this a non issue for otherwise solo lane Tanks and junglers.

As for Frozen heart, this will just make it easier for Top laners to buy.

As suggested with Enchanter supports, Tank Supports simply need to scale with stats that the straight tanks would otherwise not build en mass.

increasing their scalings to allow them to build let stat efficient items would simply make them played in solo lanes with the more stat efficient items, while increasing the stats on their items and or lowering the cost would just crowd them out.

The only question is what stat? At first I considered HP regen as Straight tanks while they enjoy it as a statline, they don't concentration on ti primarily, but then that would incentivize these supports to get item 3083 item 3065 etc.

The only stat i could think of was perhaps Mana since the items they get seem to have it? item 3050 item 3110 item 3025 item 3800 as an example.

But then in they would abuse the AP/mana items in the mage space.

In general, I do feel champs like Leona need some kind of scaling on her Passive, Braum could get a scaling on his E as an example. The problem is finding the stat to make it scale with so that these supports aren't just relegated to "poor toplaner"

27 Comments

Zerana5 votes

The simplest solution is just to make all the major gps support items give a flat 20% cdr. Of course we are back to the original problem of enchanter supports who rely on item actives to do most of their work having too much cdr, a simple solution is to just give a keystone that lets you convert bonus cdr into item active cdr, with a cap at around 50%, or the same as regular spell cdr. Everyone wins with this and enchanters just get a nicer late game.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

The simplest solution is just to make all the major gps support items give a flat 20% cdr. Of course we are back to the original problem of enchanter supports who rely on item actives to do most of their work having too much cdr, a simple solution is to just give a keystone that lets you convert bonus cdr into item active cdr, with a cap at around 50%, or the same as regular spell cdr. Everyone wins with this and enchanters just get a nicer late game.

Thats an interesting and smart idea. The problem tho is the CDR on it could be abused by Midlaners again. Imo, item 2301 shouldn't even give CDR to begin with. You dont even itemise it into the item, it comes out of nowhere.

Currently, there is no worthwhile incentive to getting item 3092 over item 2301 as it provides all the stats you need from the item while also being more slot efficient.

( item 2045 can burn in Teemo's doombot hell as far as enchanters are concerned for the most part)

Removing the CDR on EOtW to make Frost Queen more attractive would be a nice start to balance the two, and would make it to where these supports aren't overcapping on CDR so fast and needlessly as well. They could compensate by putting more Mana Regen or Health on it or something.


It would also synergize with your idea as getting Frost Queen leads itself into item 2045 which along with the Extra CDR would mean it synergizes with the item active CDR bonus from it on op of the overcapped CDR > item active CDR conversion, which would emphasize the commitment and playstyle.

Zerana1 votes

{quoted}

Thats an interesting and smart idea. The problem tho is the CDR on it could be abused by Midlaners again. Imo, item 2301 shouldn't even give CDR to begin with. You dont even itemise it into the item, it comes out of nowhere.

Currently, there is no worthwhile incentive to getting item 3092 over item 2301 as it provides all the stats you need from the item while also being more slot efficient.

( item 2045 can burn in Teemo's doombot hell as far as enchanters are concerned for the most part)

Removing the CDR on EOtW to make Frost Queen more attractive would be a nice start to balance the two, and would make it to where these supports aren't overcapping on CDR so fast and needlessly as well. They could compensate by putting more Mana Regen or Health on it or something.


It would also synergize with your idea as getting Frost Queen leads itself into item 2045 which along with the Extra CDR would mean it synergizes with the item active CDR bonus from it on op of the overcapped CDR > item active CDR conversion, which would emphasize the commitment and playstyle.

I disagree,item 2301 should have the same cdr as the others for slot efficiency reasons, the only reason support players go for it is if there is a better situational support item other than the standard gp5 item actives. Support items that can be better include but are not limited to: item 3190 item 3504 item 3060 item 3222 item 3050 . If the cdr is not the same then the item does not give any reasonable mid to late game tradeoffs. There is an incentive to getting item 3092 over the watchers set, in that the early game actives can guarantee a kill during a gank and make it easier to catch players out during the mid game to late game skirmishes. The only reasons why it's not always the best idea is based on the support you play and the team you have. A sona needs the slot efficiency for her lichbane and her rylais, so she forgoes the frost queen. Janna, however, needs this item and only ever takes an alternative if her team really needs some tank stats from a locket (try not to get in that situation if you can help it). The active tradeoff is a fair one so far, as I only ever make such a trade-off call unless I'm playing the following: Sona Karma After that it's purely based on how ahead you are in the bot lane, after a certain kill thresh hold its just better to get the mage supports a more slot efficient item.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree,item 2301 should have the same cdr as the others for slot efficiency reasons, the only reason support players go for it is if there is a better situational support item other than the standard gp5 item actives. Support items that can be better include but are not limited to: item 3190 item 3504 item 3060 item 3222 item 3050 . If the cdr is not the same then the item does not give any reasonable mid to late game tradeoffs. There is an incentive to getting item 3092 over the watchers set, in that the early game actives can guarantee a kill during a gank and make it easier to catch players out during the mid game to late game skirmishes. The only reasons why it's not always the best idea is based on the support you play and the team you have. A sona needs the slot efficiency for her lichbane and her rylais, so she forgoes the frost queen. Janna, however, needs this item and only ever takes an alternative if her team really needs some tank stats from a locket (try not to get in that situation if you can help it). The active tradeoff is a fair one so far, as I only ever make such a trade-off call unless I'm playing the following: Sona Karma After that it's purely based on how ahead you are in the bot lane, after a certain kill thresh hold its just better to get the mage supports a more slot efficient item.

Even then regardless of what your opinion of the Frostqueen vs Eye dilemma is, i still fair to see how the CDR is needed on it, let alone for stat efficiency when these supports are overcapping on CDR as is. It is literally tacked on/wasted stats.

Zerana1 votes

{quoted}

Even then regardless of what your opinion of the Frostqueen vs Eye dilemma is, i still fair to see how the CDR is needed on it, let alone for stat efficiency when these supports are overcapping on CDR as is. It is literally tacked on/wasted stats.

I concur, which is why lately I suggested to the boards a new mastery to make use of that extra cdr without breaking the game. Basically, any extra cdr you get should roll over into item cdr with a cap at 50%. Not too broken and would help some champions gain some late game power.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I concur, which is why lately I suggested to the boards a new mastery to make use of that extra cdr without breaking the game. Basically, any extra cdr you get should roll over into item cdr with a cap at 50%. Not too broken and would help some champions gain some late game power.

Having the new Aegis and new Redemption actives on constant up time would be hella broke, Im sorry.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

Removing the CDR on EOtW to make Frost Queen more attractive would be a nice start to balance the two, and would make it to where these supports aren't overcapping on CDR so fast and needlessly as well. They could compensate by putting more Mana Regen or Health on it or something.

Isn't that contradictory? If I expect to overcap on CDR anyway (especially if I want to build Grail), then an item that gives me other stats instead of CDR is more attractive, not less.

Anyway, I don't think that tanks having a harder time getting CDR is necessarily any more of a problem than enchanters having a harder time getting defensive stats. Different classes are good at different things, and there are items like Zeke's that split the difference anyway.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that contradictory? If I expect to overcap on CDR anyway (especially if I want to build Grail), then an item that gives me other stats instead of CDR is more attractive, not less.

I think you need to reread and reword what you just posted because that doesn't make any sense to me.

The whole point is to where you wont be overcapping on CDR. There is no "overcapping anyway" and even then "overcapping anyway" doesn't solve the issue. it's giving up on it.

Anyway, I don't think that tanks having a harder time getting CDR is necessarily any more of a problem than enchanters having a harder time getting defensive stats. Different classes are good at different things, and there are items like Zeke's that split the difference anyway.

Except defensive stats are not core to enchanters, they dont scale with them outside of the universal scaling everything has with tanky stats.

Gary B Enkelis3 votes

I wouldn't rule out item 3222 on a tank support if it's needed that game (like they have Ashe ). Same with some other caster items you mentioned. item 3504 on Alistar for example seems good due to E being an AOE heal. item 3158 are also an option still.

Also, maybe less helpful but, those big CDR tank items like item 3110 have a much cheaper CDR component.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't rule out item 3222 on a tank support if it's needed that game (like they have Ashe ). Same with some other caster items you mentioned. item 3504 on Alistar for example seems good due to E being an AOE heal. item 3158 are also an option still.

Ofc their are special cases. Taric and Ali are Warden/enchanter hybrids like I mentioned, and getting those items is more a case of them being capable of building like Enchanters than Wardens. But getting item 3222 is more of a "im sacrificing Tankiness to specifically remove CC from a key player" choice as opposed to being a true Tank Support item, if i am making any sense.

Sacrificing an entire slot for just 35 MR in tank stats is kind of a joke by itself.

Gary B Enkelis1 votes

Yeah, and maybe I have a bad understanding of this but... I'm there to support my team. We hopefully have tanks to tank. The MR from item 3222 is a bonus for me, but removing CC / healing a teammate is super valuable.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, and maybe I have a bad understanding of this but... I'm there to support my team. We hopefully have tanks to tank. The MR from item 3222 is a bonus for me, but removing CC / healing a teammate is super valuable.

Yes. I don't believe i ever claimed it isn't.

My point is that it is more similar to building item 3140 on a midlaner to counter Malzakar than it being an actual "tank support" item. Just like how Enchanters currently get item 3190 even tho it is a "Tank Support" item.

Also, Ionian Boots on tank supports feels like a selfish buy because you are giving up the ability to tank for your team for the ability to cast spells more.

Gary B Enkelis1 votes

Well it depends on the game....

Alistar for example benefits from the reduced cooldown of summoner 4 (by taking item 3158 ). Also having summoner 3 more frequently could be useful.... More CDR for more Rs from Leona and Taric , for example. It depends. I dunno.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Well it depends on the game....

Alistar for example benefits from the reduced cooldown of summoner 4 (by taking item 3158 ). Also having summoner 3 more frequently could be useful.... More CDR for more Rs from Leona and Taric , for example. It depends. I dunno.

I don't think you are grasping the point of my post. You are kinda missing the point here.

Abyssphere1 votes

After the preseason it'll be 35 MR and 150% HP regen so that's a fair improvement for tank supps.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

After the preseason it'll be 35 MR and 150% HP regen so that's a fair improvement for tank supps.

It's okay. The New Knight's vow and Redemption tho are much better items and Redemption in particular will get them a but of CDR, tho Braum and Leona won't care for it as much as Ali and Taric.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

i dont get why tank sup items dont give cdr considering the speltheifs and the coin items GIVE FAR MORE GOLD. FAR MORE

ChaddyFantome3 votes

{quoted}

i dont get why tank sup items dont give cdr considering the spelltheifs and the coin items GIVE FAR MORE GOLD. FAR MORE

I disagree with that last bit. In the same amount of time (per 1 minute and a half) not counting ambient cold:

  • Tank Supports get to share gold from actual CS with item 3302. A Seige Minion gives 45.5g and one spawns every minute and 30 seconds, which means you are killing rightly a Seige minion and another minion (20g). This means you are getting roughly (2x20)+45=85 gold

  • Coin gives a flat 4g but only if u are near minions when they are dying. If you are in lane for the same amount of time, you are roughly getting 3(4x6)+4=78g

  • Spell thief only gives u any worthwhile gold if you are harassing. Assuming you are harassing at a constant rate (which would never realistically happen) you get 3(3x8)= 74g

Tank supports actually get more gold in this timeframe. ;o

It is later on since Relic stacks can't be consistent mid to late game where they start having trouble procing their relic charges. But again, spell thief supports aren't constantly harassing so they have to harass constantly to not even make as much gold as Tank supports or coin supports.

Coin supports on the other hand have to be near minion deaths to get consistent gold.

There are all things that hit these supports mid to late game.


That said, the lack of CDR on Tank supports is a problem, but the issue is again providing cheap CDR for them while making it so top laners can't abuse it.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

i never gotten as much gold from the tank item as the coin or the spell thief. spell thief is the best. late game nobody is gonna wait for you to get stacks. your gonna roam and ward. and not taking full efficiency of it. same with coin but at least ur there when team pushes waves. and spell theif is always relevant

ChaddyFantome5 votes

{quoted}

i never gotten as much gold from the tank item as the coin or the spell thief. spell thief is the best. late game nobody is gonna wait for you to get stacks. your gonna roam and ward. and not taking full efficiency of it. same with coin but at least ur there when team pushes waves. and spell thief is always relevant

Spell thief has the equal issue of not being able to proc it unless u have enemies to harass, which outside of landing phase and even then not really if your enemy is smart) isn't consistent.

To say it is always "relevant" is factually incorrect.

DarkRitual1 votes

It's worth pointing out that each of the items gold gen changes along the upgrade path, which can drastically affect the math.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

It's worth pointing out that each of the items gold gen changes along the upgrade path, which can drastically affect the math.

Im aware. I calculated for the first 1 and 30 second laning. (3 waves , one of which has a Siege minion) None of the parties have the Tier 2 income items at this point unless the support got the kill in an early invade of something.

Bladerunner77771 votes

Why do they need CDR though?

Take Leona for example, do you think her ult cooldown is long or something?

ChaddyFantome3 votes

{quoted}

Why do they need CDR though?

Take Leona for example, do you think her ult cooldown is long or something?

her W Q and E would benefit from more uptime. These champs feel like Divers or Juggernauts with no burst/dps that take slightly longer to kill in a lot of situations, where they go in and then do nothing all team fight besides auto attack when they don't have CDR.

Bladerunner77771 votes

But she's balanced around the current uptime on her abilities

If they just randomly add CDR to all tank supports then balancing would be a mess and you would probably see a lot of their cooldowns go up, which defeats the purpose. This would also force all tank supports to build CDR no matter what, so that only lowers item diversity.

Tanks supports need items that make them tanky/give utility. Mage supports need items that let them use their abilities more (CDR and mana)

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

But she's balanced around the current uptime on her abilities

I disagree. Outside of maybe her Q, she isn't doing much at all in a fight. she is kind of a facerole engage cheese pick atm.

If they just randomly add CDR to all tank supports then balancing would be a mess and you would probably see a lot of their cooldowns go up, which defeats the purpose. This would also force all tank supports to build CDR no matter what, so that only lowers item diversity.

Ali, Braum would like a word with you. Taric doesn't have it as bad because of his Passive but generally speaking, neither of them are doing much past using all their buttons. Braum can apply passive stacks if he is in range instead of blocking the back line, but Ali is literally just a walking meat cow when his Spells are down.

Tanks supports need items that make them tanky/give utility. Mage supports need items that let them use their abilities more (CDR and mana)

Tank supports need the CDR to actually use their utility tho. The items they build current;y don't provide them with any utility that toplaners and straight tanks dont already provide, which renders them just toplaners on a budget.

New items are coming to try and alleviate this, but i feel their will be tons of abuse cases.

Erockandroll1 votes

As a support main, the biggest issue I see with Tank support itemization is going to have a similar balance problem to (AP vs poke support itemization) You want tank stat's? you end up sacrificing utility. You want CDR? you give up the raw stats, which I consider fair for most Tank supports, as they often rely on spells for damage mitigation. (Like Braum's wall) You want both on the same item? It will end up being out of a supports price range.(though Frozen heart is close) And Riot can't justify lowering prices because they could become abusive in the solo lane. (like when FQC once was)

But let me ask this, what do tank supports want, aside from defenses and CDR? Cause the best way to get a good tank support item, is to get an item that will benefit his role in the Duo lane. (Like that new item. Pick a teammate, and gain 40 Armor while next to them? sounds groovy.)

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