are they talking about iron/bronze games?
Because thresh/pyke/alistar/morgana are DEFINITELY dominating the support role, no reasons to pick a burst mage when you have alistar's burst+cc+tankiness+engage
hhaavviikk35 votesgotta nerf enchanters though, gotta take a giant shit on shields!
Cats Are Food27 votesBecause: "But we can't kill the ADC in 0.27 seconds!!!!"
LTK KoRo6 votescut the crap, during enchanters reign bullshit like lulu shield had 6 secs duration with 5.5 sec CD. Don't act like they didn't deserve the nerfs.
Also during the ardent meta narrative was: "But we can't kill the ADC at all".
Cats Are Food19 votesSo for 8 months Enchanters needed to be utterly destroyed for the rest of eternity?
LTK KoRo15 votesNo, they deserved nerfs, not destroying (no class deserves that). Did the Riot overdo nerfs? Probably. But point still stands, they were OP, and they deserved the nerfing. If they'll get buffed a bit they might be strong but not overbearing. Like pre s7.
Ragnaveil4 votesHow do you think we top tanks feel? Both classes got hit with nerfs (intentional or not) that have killed them. I do agree that enchanters got hit a bit too hard, but they needed to be nerfed.
LordGeovanni2 votesLol it was adcs fault enchanters were nerfed because when they were called out for being op They blamed it on the enchanters shields which got nerfed and adcs were still op then riot nerfed crit chance then buffed it back in less than half a year.
AjXtar22 votesand yet zyra and brand have the same pick rate as those you mentioned(other than thresh), but higher win rate. Just because some are broken, that doesn't mean brand and zyra are not broken.
Moody P9 votesIn what elo
AjXtar6 votesMaybe learn to use the websites that shows statistics.
Moody P8 votesWhy are you dodging the question
Mcsquzzy1 votesJust gonna say this, while I do agree giving data to back an opinion is great, with how all these sites manage to give different results it does create a need to check multiple site as zardo pointed out and clicking pick rate to help organize since whats the point of a 54% winrate if its only otp who do it so it is skewed in their favour heavily. This could be easily fixed if riot posted the info themselves, but that's not happening anytime soon.
On all 3 sites thresh is most popular with 27-29 pick rate while the next highest is either Naomi or pyke but the information is just really starting to vary too much. Then we get to brand where somehow they all agree that his pick rate is between 7-8 but fall apart on win rate being between 50.7-53.2 while thresh is 51-52.
All 3 sites were set to diamond and up support and if it shows anything, it shows that in the right hands brand support is viable in high elo because he is generally only played by people who know what to do with him at that elo.
D357R0Y3R14 votesin which elo?
https://i.gyazo.com/32f88b8f9d0a237bdf9b4bc43a933183.png
this is alistar in master+
https://i.gyazo.com/7cbe7df0774eb6602ac1876259497ed1.png
this is brand in master+
there isn't a single support main in high elo who goes for brand instead of alistar the only brand players are midlaners who are autofilled and thus go for brand instead of alistar
https://i.gyazo.com/ca55f46759b3e3150c7bffcfdca3c46d.png
if you take plat+ even pyke is absurd, and morgana still has a higher pick rate than support brand and support zyra
AjXtar8 votesThere is no website that will give you the statistics for master. Check the amount of games. 2000 games for alistar, 500 for brand and so on. That is not a good way to represent a category of champions when there are very few games. In that elo is all about preferences/mains.
Bronze GOAT13 votesThere are way too few people in masters to be using those stats, are you serious? That's less than 1% of the community. In Plat+ which is only about 10% of the community, Ali and Brand have about the same pickrate, and Zyra is following like 1 point behind. Pyke is literally second. People can be so misleading with statistics I swear.
2 one tricks alone could skew that data, that's how low that population is. How could you even use that?
D357R0Y3R6 votes[{quoted}](name=Bronze GOAT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87hQwqzA,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2019-01-06T14:15:51.640+0000)
Ali and Brand have about the same pickrate,
It doesn't matter Plat games are shit, so people not being able to abuse alistar is not relevant
any players playing in a real competitive environment would tell that alistar is x50 superior to brand
Bronze GOAT14 votes"are they talking about iron/bronze games?"
You literally mislead people by claiming iron/bronze games to be the only elo where mage sups are relavent in the OP. And the instant you are met with facts stating that other elos besides the rock bottom ones also have the issue you run and pretend that Master+ was all you meant. Congratz, a tiny fraction of the community aren't spamming mage sups... I guess there's nothing to worry about.
Madjack015 votes[{quoted}](name=Bronze GOAT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87hQwqzA,comment-id=00000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-06T14:23:30.018+0000)
You literally mislead people by claiming iron/bronze games to be the only elo where mage sups are relavent in the OP. And the instant you are met with facts stating that other elos besides the rock bottom ones also have the issue you run and pretend that Master+ was all you meant. Congratz, a tiny fraction of the community aren't spamming mage sups... I guess there's nothing to worry about.
Which is forgivable though because it is a legit stance to think that the game should be balance around the best players and to thus assume that when we talk about balance, we talk about masters+.
Velasan2 votesWhich is forgivable though because it is a legit stance to think that the game should be balance around the best players and to thus assume that when we talk about balance, we talk about masters+.
True, but shouldn't you not be balancing around masters+ because the range of players is so much lower?
Compare how many people are even in masters division, let alone even in diamond. Are you getting solid statistics from those numbers compared to the amount of people in plat and below?
For example, you could balance around say just the top 100 people on each server. Now what if 2 of the top 100 players just happen to be Alistair mains and have high win rates with him.
Does that make Alistair OP? Idk, you tell me.
Moody P6 votesbecause the conversation is about high elo not plat through d4 lol
SithesisLord6 votesBut Masters+ stats are skewed because of OTPs, TTPs and the sort, and thus, aren´t anywhere indicative of champion strength.
Diamond+ and Plat+ are still the more reliable.
There are champions in Masters+ nearing or in one particular case, actually getting to 60% winrate. That particular case is Taric, a champion that in no way deserves any nerfs.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesyeh i doubt a champ is gonna reach 15% pickrate through onetricks.
SithesisLord5 votesYou need to consider the sample sizes those percentages are relating to.
15% pick rate in Platinum plus' near 20 million games analyzed. 15% pick rate in Diamond plus' near 4 million games analyzed. 15% pick rate in Master plus' near 223 thousand games analyzed.
Which one of these is more likely to be skewed?
Rathar Dashing15 votesAlistar is a burst mage lol
Cats Are Food13 votes"WHEN YOU HAVE ALISTARS BURST..."
He used to hit for almost no damage unless you trolled and ran him straight AP.
Pyke - Burst Morgana - Ever catch a Q? Thresh - Let him hit you.
Daddy Ants13 votesAlistar is a
Lhuhz25 votesLee Sin is a Ranged-Melee-Tanky-DPS-Assassin-Mage-Tank-Support-Jungler
Lil Homie busta1 votesThats what people mean when they say a champion is too generalist.
Noor Sakata11 votesThey mostly talking about normals where people love overrating stuff and a circlejerk starts Just looks at sites , in plat and higher it shows normally the normal supports are dominating the role But from what I saw , most of who complaining about Mages support are adc mains and some Lulu mains
Zeppelins circus2 votes[{quoted}](name=Noor Sakata,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87hQwqzA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-06T13:32:03.044+0000)
They mostly talking about normals where people love overrating stuff and a circlejerk starts Just looks at sites , in plat and higher it shows normally the normal supports are dominating the role But from what I saw , most of who complaining about Mages support are adc mains and some Lulu mains
And well those lulu mains pretty much deserved it. lmao
Marshbouy6 votesYeah, burst mages are not overly prevalent bot lane but I feel a lot of their supposed "dominance" comes from how frustrating they are to face in lane.
Getting clipped by a Zyra snare in the current meta usually means death unless both your flash and heal are up. Getting clipped by a brand W will hit for over a hundred damage at level 1 and that scales up fast in laning phase. Sure you can "just dodge them" but it's not like you can magically flip a switch and never get hit by a skillshot ever again.
They out trade everyone unless they're completely stupid and punish going for CS hard. Theoretically you can beat them 2v2 with an engage tank, but a lot of low elo players aren't coordinated enough to actually execute a good 2v2. You can also play safer and wait for ganks, but "play safe" is unheard of in lower elos and no jungler ever seems to understand that brand/zyra will
Almost always pushed to our tower
Is super immobile
I know this because I play in gold and with lower tier players on a team (as in, I play premade with silver or worse players for a tournament). As a result unskilled players get the idea that they're unstoppable.
Brand/Zyra are the only two I've ever had that much of an issue with. Lux is a trashball support against anyone with a brain and same with Xerath because their utility is low and they're too reliant on gold for stats.
but even then, the "good" mage bot laners fall of late game compared to a "real" support (unless people straight int them)
D357R0Y3R1 votesyour post makes a lot of sense, thank you
Marshbouy1 votesaww thank you
pretty much every unjustified balance complaint can be explained by "people hate facing them"
Lhuhz1 votesI tolerate Brand, I find his skillshots being easier to dodge but fuck Zyra.
Being honest I have ptsd of S6 and early S7 with Jhin and Zyra botlanes being gigacancer when Zyra didn't even needed to land her skillshots to make her plants focus you.
MorgManBasher5 votesLiterally just low elo and people who think they are annoying complaining about them
Alistar is King of support.
rtbf2216514125 votesHealers, buffers, etc. Traditional supports are being destroyed. Nothing new with gaming though since people can't tolerate people being buffed/healed apparently in any game. (Unless you do damage apparently)
Lhuhz3 votesA F T E R S H O C K
Abibyama II3 votesRuining both the support role and mid lane!
But Conqueror is literally ruining this world
SithesisLord3 votes->Literally just Galio and Lissandra abusing it, with Ryze, one of its recent users not having much success with it.
Ruining mid lane btw.
As for the support role, just Fiddle and Pyke are its unintended users.
But Conqueror is literally ruining this world
It's just invalidating an entire class, practically forcing Riot to cave in and turn them into Juggernauts with reliable engages just to keep up.
Abibyama II2 votes->Literally just Galio and Lissandra abusing it, with Ryze, one of its recent users not having much success with it.
Ruining mid lane btw.
Because it cucks everything else.
y0r1ck1 votesI think lisa and galio are not abusing aftershock. I just think galio does too much damage too consistently and easily.
Jerry SeinfeId2 votesIdk, like i see quite mix of supports in my games. That should be normal games around silver elo.
Honestly (imo) alistar has been the best support for ages, especially when tank supports are good. There's (on paper) never a case where i can see alistar not being the right pick. He has a clickon engage that is an aoe knockup, % damage reduction ultimate, peel through his headbutt and to some degree his stun and he has decent base damage.
the other 3 are a bit difficult imo.
thresh is always popular the way lee and ezreal are. His winrate and playrate seem to be dropping again, but his banrate is is going up.
Pyke is gonna be in the same boat as thresh, lee and ezreal i think. His winrate is honestly not that great at 49% but he still has a high playrate. I don't feel like he is a problem personally and looking at these numbers it doesn't change my mind.
Morg feels like the autofilled mage player pick to me + she's good vs pyke which will obviously inflate her pick rate. strangely enough she seems to be going up in winrate and down in pick/banrate.
Sewer Side1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=87hQwqzA,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-01-06T20:23:53.901+0000)
Idk, like i see quite mix of supports in my games. That should be normal games around silver elo.
Honestly (imo) alistar has been the best support for ages, especially when tank supports are good. There's (on paper) never a case where i can see alistar not being the right pick. He has a clickon engage that is an aoe knockup, % damage reduction ultimate, peel through his headbutt and to some degree his stun and he has decent base damage.
the other 3 are a bit difficult imo.
thresh is always popular the way lee and ezreal are. His winrate and playrate seem to be dropping again, but his banrate is is going up.
Pyke is gonna be in the same boat as thresh, lee and ezreal i think. His winrate is honestly not that great at 49% but he still has a high playrate. I don't feel like he is a problem personally and looking at these numbers it doesn't change my mind.
Morg feels like the autofilled mage player pick to me + she's good vs pyke which will obviously inflate her pick rate. strangely enough she seems to be going up in winrate and down in pick/banrate.
Morgana is popular because she’s a fantastic anti-engage support with her shield. You’ll frequently see Thresh/Pyke/Ali players ban Morgana because she’s the perfect counterpick
SanKakU2 votesThey mean that they don't know how to play against those burst mage champions.
Eternal Torment2 votesThey probably mean all that Brand Xerath Lux Vel'koz shit that is happening literally everywhere below Diamond.
The Bad Touch2 votesI really couldn't give less of a shit what 2% of the player base does.
I'm more worried about that other 98%.
Those 2% could all quit for all I care.
If Riot balanced the game around the 98%, and said fuck the 2%... and those 2% rage quit. Would anyone really care? No they'd be too busy enjoying the game they pay the bills for.
The thigh guy2 votesPyke may as well be a burst mage as support. A 0/3 Pyke still instagibs any adc atm.
koshkyra1 votesPlaying against morgana is literally the worst experience you can have in this game
Death by Glamour1 votesstrange how brand has had a 20%+ ban rate in diamond all patch then
