One of Riot's biggest mistakes was indulging in mages as "supports," enforcing damage over utility

HateDaddy··43 votes·11,661 views

I am going to ignore season 1, and to some extent even season 2. Season 1 is when the prototypical ADC + support bot lane was popularized in EU, and we've been there ever since (for the most part). Season 2 saw this morph some, but you mostly saw utility-oriented supports be the focus. Season 3 saw the transition from this to more damage oriented "supports," mages who couldn't hack in mid-line for different reasons (Annie, Zyra, and even Leblanc and Elise at times). Of course, season 2 and season 3 saw incredibly poor supports (this did change big time in season 3, but it was still an issue) that pushed their play-style towards ward-bots. However, since this is where "supports" transformed, we've really never looked back. We've added the likes of Brand, Vel'Koz, Malzahar, Veigar, Lux, Kennen, Fiddlesticks and Morgana (season 4 Victorious Skin). This isn't to say these champions do not get played elsewhere, because obviously many of them have and still do - but the key is they've been locked in the role of support because they have support-esque utility as mages, but offer way more damage.

What is the problem with this? Riot should never have allowed this to become popular to begin with. I understand the argument that Riot should not try to mandate metas or enforce certain styles of play. However, ask yourself this: is there a mage that goes bot that feels fair to play against? Outside of mages that actually got balanced around being support (Morgana, Annie [somewhat so at least], and Zyra), these champions can straight up 100-0 ADCs so long as they take ignite. This isn't a complaint about mages either, they are designed to burst in nature. But if they're going bot instead of mid, jungle, or even top, this points to a serious balance problem in the first place. Instead, Riot has allowed this to continue and doesn't really do a ton to try and encourage them to go elsewhere: instead they attempt to balance them around bot and we end up having to still deal with mages that can 100-0 you. Okay, fair enough: Riot is trying, and that is okay. But this has some serious consequences..

The biggest consequence is that you have removed the necessity of utility supports/tank supports. Sure, utility supports like Sona and at one time Janna have the capacity to do a lot of damage. But, they generally poke more and only do this absurd amount of damage if they get ahead or build damage: mages are going to do that damage regardless. If these champions cannot protect their carries early from a mage + ADC bot lane, which they typically cannot, then they lose the ability to be of value. Imagine a world where a Janna or Sona could go toe-to-toe with a kill-lane anyway (which is effectively what a mage + adc lane is): that would be fucking stupid. That would mean you're making the it inevitable that Sona/Janna lanes win out in the end. However, that is exactly what Riot has had to do to make them actually viable: they've had to make their utility so overbearing that even if they lose these kill-lanes, they are going to empower their ADC so much that nothing you do matters (Ardent Censor meta).

So what you have is this constant back-and-forth dynamic between damage supports/mages and utility supports where one has to outperform the other so severely that the game hyperfocuses on bot-lane performance even more so, because on one hand you have 5 damage dealers or the other you have 3 damage dealers but one of them is hyper-empowered. Both cases are fucking stupid and feel like shit to play against and with, and the problem is that damage/mage supports continue to be incredibly effective in that role. Sooner or later, Riot will buff utility/tank supports enough to either just straight up outdamage and out-tank these kill-lanes (Nautilus support currently), or survive them with little effort needed (pretty much what we see everytime Soraka is good). There needs to be a fundamental shift here, and Riot needs to find a way to give utility supports (actual supports) their lane back without making them incredibly overpowered to do it. Keep in mind, I am not suggesting that normal supports cannot function without being overpowered: Nami is doing just that right now. But it is rare, and it is a difficult goal to reach. A fundamental change that made mages less consistent bot-lane would be a much better solution (removing keystones would help in a big way here).

This has led to an even bigger problem, and now that we are here let's discuss it. The abomination that is Pyke has been created. An "assassin support." It is hard to say that without laughing. The concept is so abruptly stupid even though I will admit the design of Pyke is actually incredibly well-done given what it attempted. Pyke actually has an incredible character and kit, but the fact is he does it in a role where damage isn't supposed to be the focus. What you end up having is a support that executes galore, and nothing about that feels good. And then you consider he needs certain things to function as a support: either engage, disengage, sustain or poke (mages do well because they can usually do a combination of these things). And Pyke has engage/disengage and self-sustain. And then you have him going in solo lanes, which makes him absolutely fucking stupid to deal with. Because now you have an assassin that has the capacity to solo lane like a bruiser.

However, the addition of Pyke creates a bigger problem: Pandora's Box has been opened now. Remember when Riot said Vayne would be exclusively the only champion to do %hp true damage? Yeah, history shows once you add a problematic element to the game, chances are you're going to do it again because you made it acceptable the first time, almost a psuedo-foot-in-the-door approach. What will be next? An assassin support that can AoE blind everyone and execute champions with the most HP? That sounds absurd, but if I would've suggested support Pyke to you a few years ago, you would've likely laughed at me. And that's where we are at, and that's where we probably continue to go. I applaud Riot for having lofty goals with their champion's kits, but there's a certain point where you have to say enough is enough. And because you allowed damage-oriented supports to excel in the first place, you've opened the door for champions like Pyke and designs of that ilk. I'll go ahead and use this closing sentence as the TL;dr. Thanks for reading.

TL:DR: I applaud Riot for having lofty goals with their champion's kits, but there's a certain point where you have to say enough is enough. And because you allowed damage-oriented supports to excel in the first place, you've opened the door for champions like Pyke and designs of that ilk.

64 Comments

HP Crookshanks30 votes

People prefer playing them in bot instead of mid because of Yasuo Zed Talon item 3155 item 3111 item 3147 item 3142 item 3814

AirKingNeo5 votes

and yet mages are better than those champions

Limrick17 votes

Overall maybe, but playing against them as a mage is miserable

Pierce The Veal4 votes

I’ve found it miserable to play as and against them. As someone who originally played AD assassins back in season 2 and 3, before they were ever considered good, I miss playing around my super risky kit instead of wonky minigames and item+rune abuse. It feels like the assassins of today are entirely built around cheese as opposed to the assassins of old which were all about maximizing risk vs reward. It’s just not exhilarating to play assassins anymore because I’m not really playing risky, I’m playing an optimized cheese tactic that we call a champion.

Zardo2 votes

Zed and talon are both doing really, really well right now. Theres only a couple of mages doing better than them.

ChaosReyn1 votes

Talon, yes. Even my assassin-illiterate ass can take him and win consistently.

Zed...if Zed is doing well right now, they're likely a one trick. That, or your mid has no idea how to fight him.

Zardo4 votes

I'm talking overall. Close to a 51% winrate and 11% pickrate w/ a 50% banrate in plat+. He has around a 53% winrate in diamond, maters, and challenger with a similar pickrate. He's not overpowered, but he's not weaker than the majority of mages.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build

voidscaler8 votes

Man fuck hexdrinker Absolutely most broken item in the game, one stop shop win lane Vs ap

Pierce The Veal2 votes

As someone who used to main AD assassins in season 2-4, I sort of agree.

While AD assassins haven’t outright ruined the game for mages, I didn’t like how they were changed from massive amounts of AD stacking champions to lethality+item abusers. They went from having to get as much ad as possible to abusing free damage sources as effectively as possible champions and that frustrates me to no end. I want to play the old balls to the wall assassins that had to use their kits as well as they could instead of duskblade proccing easy to escape assassins.

For me, an assassin is a champion who tries to take out a carry or two in exchange for their life, not a champion who is supposed to be amazing at getting away and tries to cheese the adc/mage with their lethality duskblade electrocute ignite combo. It feels like the assassins oneshotting more easily in exchange for dying easily was a much more healthy gameplay rather than this situation where they don’t kill as easily but have a billion ways to get out of a tough situation, while simultaneously killing really easily if they abuse items and runes instead of their innate damage; seriously, look at their innate damage, it’s not that high (except rengar and perhaps kha’zix)! Riot has just made it so that they have items and runes that they are very good at abusing that makes them so bullshit to play against.

I want back the 100+ AD items and I want gone this bizarre resistance+ad+ other stats super optimal items. It was a lot more fun and a lot easier to counterplay a bloodthirster stacking talon rather than this bullshit.

ChaosReyn1 votes

And I agree completely on the free stats: free 10%CDR + convert excess CDR to adaptive force, free lethality/Mpen on dash/blink, a total of 26% lifesteal between [Legend: Bloodline] and [Ravenous Hunter]...and plenty of ways to deal stupid amounts of adaptive damage anyway. That's not even including Conqueror, since assassins don't use it, but the ability to turn literally anyone into a tank slayer is both busted and design crippling.

Runes Reforged needs a hard second look. I'm not going to say it's all bad...but it needs to be a lot more balanced if it's going to take over for runes/masteries properly, and I've been saying that since their tag-in. Sure, I couldn't make my rune page in champ select...but it was a more customizable and more balanced player lever system than the RR system.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

It’s just so busted nowadays. We find that it’s moreso a champion that’s best for an item or a rune rather than an item/rune that suits a champion. It’s all about champions augmenting items and not the other way around.

In the past the “stat sticks” of old would have champions building items that did nothing but make the champion just better at what they did. That simplicity was good. Not everything needs to add magical power that comes out of nowhere. Stuff like statikk shiv, duskblade of draktharr, and other similar items that add free damage or free utility passives instead of the stat stick builds of old have lead to gimmicky damage skyrocketing. It drives me crazy and it’s entirely killed off the assassin class for me (because they are entirely balanced around those items and not their own kits now). It doesn’t feel fun to play an item and not a champion.

ChaosReyn1 votes

I mean, that's partially true. But by the same note, just because one champion/set of champions works best with rune path X and item path Y, doesn't mean that I can't take that same rune path and item path on a champion I'm more familiar with and still cuck the exact same audience in the exact same way as those that do it best.

For example - one of the recent boards posts was talking about Jinx being busted cause she can build IE, PD, and GA and be extremely hard to reach or kill. That's almost the exact same thing I do when I play Caitlyn (swapping GA for Edge of Night for the lethality since I have stupid range and E and can therefore abuse it better) and it screws people in pretty much the exact same way. Jinx is a hypercarry, and Cait falls off a bit by late game...but as far as early and mid game (the only two parts of the game you ever see at this point) are concerned, I can pretty much keep up with the damage output of Jinx just by doing Caitlyn things with pretty much the exact game build well past the 25 minute mark.

These kinds of situations come from the rune paths being super stale - most adcs run a pretty similar setup (you're either tempo or PTA, with Alacrity, Triumph and either CDG or Cut Down, and usually biscuits and footwear for your early game sustain or scorch and gathering storm for more scaling damage output) and a lot of them run similar build paths (either crit based or AS/onhit based seem to be the two main ones). It's stale - in those cases, it's a case of "I'm adc, this is what I need" and not "I'm [insert champ here] and I'm up against [insert enemy lane/teamcomp here] so I should build around that."

Another was talking about a Yasuo who - without lifesteal items - easily outhealed grievous wounds in a 1v3. That's the 26% lifesteal + triumph combo at work...and we all know Yasuo doesn't really need that and it probably isn't best for him, but that doesn't make it any less cancerous. It'd be asinine to have been part of the trio that got dumpstered by a Lifestealing Yasuo without itemized Lifesteal. This is the same concept as what's killed off assassins for you - how are you going to balance Yasuo even item wise if his runes are doing THAT? Let alone his PD, Shiv and IE combo. Literally the only 3 items he needs, and of course he dumps the rest into lethality/armor pen to make sure not even a tank can live for more than 3s. Don't get me wrong, I despise Yasuo...but I still don't think it's his actual kit that's OP (other than wind wall's animation time...but that's not his damage output) more than it is his access to a fuckload of free stats and damage that shouldn't really exist.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

Yeah. When it is the ability to abuse runes and items the best that break champions and not the actual champion itself you know that the game has become too focused on items. Be it on hits, free utility, free damage passives, free healing, etc.. And that’s the whole problem, the one who abuses that the best becomes broken while everyone else is meh.

For example zed’s entire role midlane has become proc electrocute every 25 or so seconds until you can go in and pop them with a duskblade proc. His kit isn’t actually doing a lot of the work, he’s just good at abusing items and so you’re not actually playing Zed, you’re playing an incarnation of Duskblade, Electrocute, ignite

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=859czFu7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-28T18:52:01.987+0000)

People prefer playing them in bot instead of mid because of Yasuo Zed Talon item 3155 item 3111 item 3147 item 3142 item 3814

1 item 1029 negates the lethality on Ghostblade until level 11.

HP Crookshanks2 votes

1 item 1033 negates the magic pen on item 3165 in the entire game. (and even adds more MR)

WalkingInACircle2 votes

But not the 55 ad or movespeed.

Lethality items offer the highest burst of any items and are stackable.

Linna Excel1 votes

Lethality is riot's way of giving AD assassins true damage against squishy champs. True damage is one of those things you have to be really careful with. I think the other half of the problem is that item 3157 is a terrible rush item for mages. It's got no CDR and no mana help so even if you rush it to survive the lane, it's not doing a whole lot for you to help win it.

3ternalkarma2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=859czFu7,comment-id=00010005,timestamp=2019-05-29T16:38:27.321+0000)

Lethality is riot's way of giving AD assassins true damage against squishy champs. True damage is one of those things you have to be really careful with. I think the other half of the problem is that item 3157 is a terrible rush item for mages. It's got no CDR and no mana help so even if you rush it to survive the lane, it's not doing a whole lot for you to help win it.

uh.... it gives 10 cdr........ but as you said it doesnt help mana sustain when most ad mids are pretty much manaless now as for getting mages out of bot lane the answer is pretty simple imho item 3303 <------- REMOVE IT

Linna Excel1 votes

Right... I was looking at it and totally missed the CDR. What I meant was real CDR, which is 20%. ;) Still, mana items tend to be the first items for an midlaner and building a more defensive item early feels like you've already lost lane if you aren't playing a tank or a bruiser.

As for spelltheif, it's needed for poke champs. Lulu and Sona come to mind.

Aimléss1 votes

Lol, since assassins are cancer mid lane, mage players decided to go be the cancer to ADCs? Seems about right.

Your Otter10 votes

I mean, would you like to play a squishy, immobile mage against a Zed with item 3155 ? Or against a Yasuo who will make your entire kit useless with 1 spell?

I still do, because I love midlane, but it's much more fun going AP support, you don't have to deal with this stupid meta.

One thing that keeps me sane is that I permaban Yasuo or Zed when I'm on mid. These 2 are banned quite often, so when you ban one, there's a chance the enemy team bans the other one. Winning.

Strawberrycocoa4 votes

I feel like the choice of playing Support role as a Second Nuker was more acceptable back when CC and healing/buffing was generally stronger.

But then they started reducing stun durations, or changing point-clicks to skillshots (while also ramping up mobility on champions overall), reducing numerical strength on shields and healing altogether, and just generally gutting anything that was effective at defensive play.

Now you have Lux building Rabadons as a first item while poaching a SUPPORT ROLE, and people think this is okay. Assassin mains cried about having their precious killstreaks denied, and the teamwork oriented archetypes suffered for it.

Karunamon2 votes

{quoted}

Now you have Lux building Rabadons as a first item

Nobody does this

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

I want to have your matches then, because this happens a lot in my range.

ll3lackbeard3 votes

If you play a tank supp low elo you lost. If I get one I dodge. To many damage adc/supp combos that push you out.

Zardo2 votes

Thresh and naut are both s tier right now and leona is a tier though.

DeathcapShaco3 votes

Is this thread a joke? Mage supports are like bottom tier right now

Linna Excel2 votes

So what should do with all those damage supports who really don't work in mid-lane anymore either because they were forced out by the meta or riot balanced them to the point of being playable mainly as supports? I'd love to take Zyra mid but I have no idea if she'd work out there at all and riot's never really fixed her plant AI.

Seoshi2 votes

I play Zyra mid plenty. Like any champion she has her strong and weak matchups but for the most part she can go toe-to-toe with anyone in the mid-lane. Her plants provide excellent poke and once she builds a crystal scepter and torment, she works very similarly to Heimer. On that note, her plants attack the last AUTOED unit so just make sure you auto the enemy champion atleast once before you pop that Ult Zhonya and the plants should do the rest

Linna Excel1 votes

Okay, I'll give her a try at mid.

HateDaddy8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=859czFu7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-28T18:02:30.255+0000)

So what should do with all those damage supports who really don't work in mid-lane anymore either because they were forced out by the meta or riot balanced them to the point of being playable mainly as supports? I'd love to take Zyra mid but I have no idea if she'd work out there at all and riot's never really fixed her plant AI.

As the Zyra player just mentioned, many of these champions still can be played mid - it’s just easier to take them bot.

In reality, at this point there’s not a ton Riot can do anymore. You’re not going to gut and redo the kits of several mages to change this dynamic. And don’t let my negative theme twist the logic either: there’s positive upside here, too. Many champions who likely wouldn’t otherwise get played are now seeing play. However, I think support is probably the last place you want them because support champions are really prone to being forced out of the game easily.

I say this: make a real concentrated effort at giving these champions jungle potential. Whether it be with items or with direct changes, I would find many of these champions as junglers pretty interesting. I would also say removing keystones or giving supports actual keystones that help them more would be a good step to lessen the severity of the effect we see now.

I would also say balance Pyke as a solo laner and never suggest an assassin support again.

Linna Excel1 votes

I agree that Pyke should probably be a solo laner (top bruiser) would probably be best. And I also agree that champs having a place to be played is a good thing.

However, is moving these champs to jungle a good thing? On one hand a lot of the mage "supports" do have some CC which would make ganking with them viable. I also think being able to having access to AP damage would help a jungler in champ select. On the other hand, there's not a lot of AP mage junglers. Most of the AP champs are either assassins who fall off, like elise or nidalee, or tanks who occasionally have an AP build like amumu. You'd also have the valid complaint of junglers where you have another role after support and top that AP mids have invaded. Then you'd have to accept games and possible metas where both the jungler and the support are AP mages.

I can see benefits to having more mage junglers, but I never get a sense of feeling like riot knows what it wants the jungle to be exactly and letting AP champs invade a 4th lane to protect supports would leave me with questions. I'd like to see riot make a new mage just for the jungle first.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

Pyke is more balanced as a Supp than as a solo laner

IainG102 votes

The problem here is essentially his build paths: being balanced around a Support's income, he gets his items (AD Lethality items) at sensible times; however, on a Solo Laner income, he gets the same items far too early and snowballs out of control.

TheSingularity2 votes

Crush their base damage, buff their scaling. This makes them beyond shit as supports and more ideal to lane with

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

As the Zyra player just mentioned, many of these champions still can be played mid - it’s just easier to take them bot.

In reality, at this point there’s not a ton Riot can do anymore. You’re not going to gut and redo the kits of several mages to change this dynamic. And don’t let my negative theme twist the logic either: there’s positive upside here, too. Many champions who likely wouldn’t otherwise get played are now seeing play. However, I think support is probably the last place you want them because support champions are really prone to being forced out of the game easily.

I say this: make a real concentrated effort at giving these champions jungle potential. Whether it be with items or with direct changes, I would find many of these champions as junglers pretty interesting. I would also say removing keystones or giving supports actual keystones that help them more would be a good step to lessen the severity of the effect we see now.

I would also say balance Pyke as a solo laner and never suggest an assassin support again.

I dont think that primary problem of sup is damage (brand is disgusting) but look at support picks top 20 is (exluding yuumi as flavour of the month) CC CC CC CC CC CC Soraka CC CC CC and CC, i understand that facing velkoz and be target on shhotin gallery is annoying but he need do more than hit one q on other hand one hook or stun and your are dead if your support dont bail you out. Another thing is mentality that bot lane belongs to marksmans exlusively and nothing can challenge that and if anything else dare step on their lane must be nerfed to the ground but you are not required nor forced to play only marksmens if you have bot lane, you can pick anything and same goes for your oponent but lcs pro players dont play vel on bot so nobody can yeah?

Cojak2 votes

I understand how you feel, and only slightly agree because supports aren't offered the same versatility. Some champs are forced into their place. Example: Leona's passive will only work off of someone else's damage and this is prevents her from being jungle or top (well, doesn't stop her, but limits). I imagine coding that could be a problem too. Elise used to be a mid, but got nerfed to where only jungle could support her. There are many others I'm sure. If some champs are pigeon-holed, why not all? Or take the shackles off and lets see what happens.

UpDownLeftRightAB2 votes

I understand the argument that Riot should not try to mandate metas or enforce certain styles of play.

Riot hasn't followed this argument for a couple years now, because they are the only reason we are still in this meta.

Eleshakai2 votes

If all we had was enchanters and tanks, then tanks would win. You need something to counter tanks during the lane phase, and the rock paper scissors of support is 'Sustain > Poke, Poke > Tank, Tank > Sustain' - obviously it's not as binary as rock paper scissors since personal play matters, but that's the basic triangle of effectiveness.

Since a strong all-in is the way to beat a sustain champ, if bot-lane mages didn't exist, enchanters wouldn't exist either because there'd be nothing to counter the tanks.

That being said, I agree that Pyke is an absolute disaster.

MorgManBasher2 votes

Why are we complaining about mage supports right now when they are the weakest in the role exactly? Zyra and Brand aren't even meta, heck they are pretty much garbage right now.

I been a mage support main since like season 2-3, starting with being a fiddlesticks main (jungle/support), if mage supports weren't in the game I would simply stop playing. Riot knows we are a decent chunk of their playerbase, so of course they aren't going to just get rid of us.

My main supports right now are Zilean Bard Gragas Leona Fiddlesticks Zyra

GinoSoldier1 votes

I will say this again; Ardent Censer was never broken. It simply happened to be the fastest and most reliable way to give overpowered ADCs their power spikes earlier than they were meant to have them. If ADC's hadn't been gradually been buffed above and beyond the capacity for any other class to handle, this entire scenario never would've happened.

The answer should have been to gut ADCs, not the single actually good support item we had.

Sir Saltarin3 votes

Ardent was broke lmao

Karunamon2 votes

Arden't wasn't "broken", but it did warp the meta so much to where it became a must-have, game-defining item.

Generally, when an item is the only choice for many different playstyles, it'll get a nerf to encourage diversification.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

Arden't wasn't "broken", but it did warp the meta so much to where it became a must-have, game-defining item.

Generally, when an item is the only choice for many different playstyles, it'll get a nerf to encourage diversification.

I would have thought increasing the power of their other items to bring them to the same level would have been a much healthier option in the long run.

Supports finally felt good to the point where they weren't the vast majority of autofill.

Linna Excel1 votes

It's a lot easier to nerf one item than it is to gut an entire class.

U R Good At Game1 votes

Why do people get so mad at pyke? Is it an elo thing? I move around roles between top, ad and supp and I've never really been bothered to see a pyke on the enemy team. I can see how the execute can be slightly annoying but I don't really see it much different than a karthus ult or urgot ult. Tbh i would rather have a pyke on the enemy team than either of those champions.

Karunamon4 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=859czFu7,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-05-29T14:17:08.224+0000)

Why do people get so mad at pyke?

Slipperiness. Pyke can get caught out of position, and where this would lead to most other champs getting killed off, Pyke gets stealth and a MS steroid to get out of trouble AND heal.

nm10101 votes

Standardizing support income/starting items was a big buff to mages in bot imo. If they didn't have an item that gave them gold, wards, damage, and mana sustain all at the same time then they would have trade offs with traditional supports. But because they can get everything they want from 1 source it makes them have very little downside.

Hong Kong Annie3 votes

This is the biggest problem. Old supports we're valuable because they could function off of little income. If you were to take a mage bot against a traditional support you would almost insta lose because there was no way a lux with no items is beating a Leona or a Sona with no items.

Kattzy1 votes

This is actually really interesting. I wonder if it would make sense to have support starting items just have defensive stats (I guess 2 out of 3 are already like that anyway)? So basically Spellthief could have like mana and/or mana regen but not AP (and upgrades would also not have AP). Granted, I see enough AP supports taking Doran's Ring anyway that this might not be the best fix, but it might be a place to start.

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