AP Carries, AP assassins and AP fighters all use the same items....

xxxMadLionxxx·Jul 14, 2018·58 votes·15,741 views

AD carries have a full line of crit/specialized items AD assassins have a full line of lethality items AD fighters have dedicated AD items

AP carries, AP assassins and AP fighters all use various blends of the following...

I think its unfair AD champs get dedicated items for all classes while AP champs all share the same items for 3 classes....

The misconception that there are simply more AD champs than AP is not true. There are almost the same amount of AP champs in the game as AD. Take a look at the list

http://guidescroll.com/2014/08/lol-champions-summary-list/

Does no one at riot think this is unfair? The worst part is the fact that they also wanted to add spear of shojin and Atmas....while AP players have been begging for better itemization for a long time.

127 Comments

TEA Nietzsche Jul 14, 201827 votes

The main issue is that AP champions simply all utilize AP and CDR equally well. Sure, there is some variety in how most use mana and some do not and how some burst more and some burst less, however all that varies depending on the meta.

But you are wrong about one thing: this being a disadvantage for AP. This simply means that AD champions appear to have more chioices - which is theoretically true - however in reality most AD champions have less options than AP champions as they can only utilize some AD items while many AP champions can use practically all AP items to some degree.

PaffWasTakenJul 15, 20183 votes

Let's take AurelionSol as an example of an all-around mage who benefits both from bulkiness and pure damage. Even if he can use effectively a vast majority of the AP items roster, some are just useless to him, namely item 3100 item 3115 . Now, this is a poor example since those two items are barely usable for a vast majority of AP users. But we can still remove some items, like item 3041 item 3089 item 3157 item 3907 item 2065 . The first 2 because of how far you need to be ahead to both either build or use those to even BE a decent build option. Zhonya is a little tricky, but to put it short, it brings barely anything considering how this item has been nerfed, from active cooldown to amount of AP to armor being a joke anywhere in the game, so objectively, this item is very situational. Now, spellbinder is barely used and its just obvious why since it brings not much while coming with a powerfull active... that you can't use most of the time because of how long it needs to stay innactive to even remotely be relevant. Now, shurelya should almost be brought to item 3174 and item 3504 in terms of AP items utility since it barely brings raw stats to AP champions (who are, possibly, the most raw-stat dependant champs in the game most of the time) while being focused on being supportive and the same can be said about item 3905 . If we go even FURTER, item 3027 and item 3003 , to a lesser extent, can also be considered ireelevant SITUATIONALY, since both those items also need stacking and can be intirely irrelevant to build at certain points in the game where the early/mid game is gone since the game are so short nowadays that those are barely options at some point.

Without even going furter and using a mage ( AurelionSol ) that can use a majority of the ap item roster (even this abomination item 3030 ), we can objectively say that his AP item roster is approximately and situationaly between 8 to 12 items out of about 18 usable AP items. This ranges from about 45 to 65 percent of usable (!!!) item roster situationnaly!! With this example, how the hell is this statement true when compaired to AD champions?? :

in reality most AD champions have less options than AP champions as they can only utilize some AD items while many AP champions can use practically all AP items to some degree

https://i.imgur.com/BEQYFjQ.gif[/img]

Some examples, like Viktor , can't even make use of some more items because of other reasons! And this is only covering classic mages, it only gets worse for other AP scaling classes...

If we get to the AD part, how the hell is this even remotely comparable? The only items I can think of who "can't" be used by AD champions because of whatever reason are the melee/ranged limited ones ( item 3748 item 3074 item 3085 ), item 3004 and only recently item 3031 . If an AD build ever gets repetitive its only because some items are far more effective together or just plainly stronger. If the same happens with AP builds, it just because, well, in 5 items post-boots you barely have any choicce on what you build so you end up with the same 2 or 3 builds for more than half of the AP roster!

The Yetii RiderJul 15, 20183 votes

Exactly. See, this is the problem. Mage players are upset because they want more armor, but don't want to miss out on CDR or mana on their first item.

But that item already exists. It's item 3110 , an item which is not only remarkably cheap for its stats but also very strong against Talon and Zed.

The problem is that mage players simply REFUSE to buy items that do not grant them AP, even though those items do buff their offense by giving them CDR and mana to use their base damage more often.

NineTailedMysticJul 15, 20181 votes

A) Mage players don't want to be WORTHLESS because they skipped AP outside of any utility they may or may not have.

B) Armor without HP to back it is essentially worthless with all of then Armor Pen running around especially with the Last Whisper revert.

C) You will have 0 waveclear with a Frozen Heart because you are not meeting AP thresholds.

C1) You will just be shoved in all day and ignored while the Assassin roams.

AlienPrimateJul 15, 20182 votes

I would rather "be WORTHLESS" then be sitting with a gray screen half the game. A living mage with 400 AP does infinitely more damage than a dead mage with 600 AP.

Did someone say HP? item 3152 item 3151 item 3116 item 3165 item 3027 If that was your build, you would have about 3700 HP

You have less waveclear when you are dead.

You are shoved more when you are dead.

NineTailedMysticJul 15, 20181 votes

By that logic, why doesn't everyone build full tank?

AlienPrimateJul 15, 20182 votes

When did I say that I'm everyone? Also, building a single frozen heart for 2700 gold giving you enough mana for most champions and 20% cdr as well as the highest armor available in a single item is enough to keep yourself from getting bursted. You still have 4 slots for other items.

I had a game on Sivir where I kept getting one shot by the enemy Rengar. Instead of whining that Rengar is broken and not adapting I built an Iceborn guantlet. Just by building a single item I went from him killing me when I use flash, heal, and ult to me killing him without having sums up. Sure, I may not do quite as much damage as if I had bought another crit item and could some how stay alive, but I still did way more damage in total due to not being dead every time Rengar pressed R.

Akali is SO HOTJul 14, 201818 votes

AD has different itemization because they can focus on 2 things instead of 1. AD has the option to either focus on auto attacks (ADCs) or focus on casting abilities (AD Assassins and other AD casters). All the champions that like to build AP only really focus on using abilities rather than auto attacks (aside from a select few) so they all build similar items. It's not Riot being biased towards AD it's just how the game has always been designed. AD has the option of building around auto attacking or building around using abilities and AP only has the option of building around using abilities.

How would you create diversity within the 3 AP classes? Every AP item that I have ever thought of that would be geared towards AP Assassins could easily be used/abused by a multitude of mages. Almost every AP item that people have suggested to be dedicated towards mages or fighters could easily be built by the other classes. It's just how AP works. If you wanted a lot of diversity within AP build paths and champions, then you would have to completely rework how the whole system of Ability Power works.

It is A LOT easier said than done.

BrightWîngsJul 14, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-07-14T07:49:52.689+0000)

AD has different itemization because they can focus on 2 things instead of 1. AD has the option to either focus on auto attacks (ADCs) or focusing on casting abilities (AD Assassins and other AD casters). All the champions that like to build AP only really focus on using abilities rather than auto attacks (aside from a select few) so they all build similar items. It's not Riot being biased towards AD it's just how the game has always been designed. AD has the option of building around auto attacking or building around using abilities and AP only has the option of building around using abilities.

How would you create diversity within the 3 AP classes? Every AP item that I have ever thought of that would be geared towards AP Assassins could easily be used/abused by a multitude of mages. Almost every AP item that people have suggested to be dedicated towards mages or fighters could easily be built by the other classes. It's just how AP works. If you wanted a lot of diversity within AP build paths and champions you would have to completely rework how the whole system of Ability Power works.

It is A LOT easier said than done.

well said friend

Champion SkinJul 14, 20181 votes

item 3115 item 3100 ( item 3124 it does have an AP ratio) all are AP items that work through auto attacking so not like AP champions don't also work around auto attacks? And a lot of AP champions have a passive or some ability that push them towards using their auto attacks (it usually doesn't do much but it is something)

Akali is SO HOTJul 14, 20182 votes

The only champs that build Nashor's are Kayle and Teemo. Lich Bane is really the only item to successfully be geared towards AP Assassins.

ZackTheWaffleManJul 14, 20183 votes

Diana sometimes builds it

AlienPrimateJul 15, 20182 votes

Tryndamere

La BelloJul 14, 201816 votes

AP DID get new itemization earlier this year. item 3907 item 3905 item 2065

problem is it didnt really fix the problems with the itemization it just added more fluff :s. It's not bad but it didn't really change anything either. I would best describe them as "4fun" items.

My biggest problems with AP Itemization are.

being a blanket multipler for EVERYTHING while not actually introducing or adding interesting of cool gameplay. It doesnt have any sort of useful utility effect that can shape how you will play the game like Rylai's slow, gunblade healing or Nashors on-hit effect. its just flat out more damage and scaling across the board for the SAKE of more damage and scaling across the board. Really lame item and I think its passive is far overdue for a rework. Rabbadons should actually have a niche set of users (preferably those looking to maximize damage like Kennen,Fiddlesticks or Katarina) rather than being a "cant go wrong" item applicable to literally anyone who builds AP. I mean even old Infinity wasn't bought on EVERY AD champion (Juggs/Bruisers/Assassins).
too reliant on the / double pen interaction. I think we need a 3rd answer to resist stacking. something thats in between hardcore 200 Resist (where void should be picked up) but better than the base 30 Sorc and Morello give which is just enough to cause true damage from spells but feels terrible after the infamous pick up. Honestly I kinda wish built into an actual AP item that let its shred passive apply on spell instances not just basics. That might be a good answer of some sort.
Because of the really sterile build directions its extremely hard for to shine in the same room as . Any champ who would build Nash is probably just better off getting Lich and calling it a day. Both the DESIGN of AP melee champions and the ITEMS of melee AP champions tend to not support sustained fighting. Hell even when it comes to takin down towers LichBanes burst proc will give WAY more damage than the 50% AS from Nashor. Nashor really seems to be for On-Hit Rageblade builds rather than actual AP builds despite the AP scaling. On that note I feel like it kinda needs a slight redesign along with some new "AP Right click" items thats not just Ragebalde/Nash.

Bottom LanerJul 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

too reliant on the / double pen interaction. I think we need a 3rd answer to resist stacking. something thats in between hardcore 200 Resist (where void should be picked up) but better than the base 30 Sorc and Morello give which is just enough to cause true damage from spells but feels terrible after the infamous pick up. Honestly I kinda wish built into an actual AP item that let its shred passive apply on spell instances not just basics. That might be a good answer of some sort.

That stacking shred sounds incredibly powerful on DOT mages like Malzahar and Cassiopeia , maybe too powerful

Champion SkinJul 14, 20185 votes

That stacking shred sounds incredibly powerful on DOT mages like and , maybe too powerful

item 3071 stacks with DoTs like Darius passive So not like that would be that out of line?

The main issue I could see is that if it didn't also work with auto attacks or something then it would be really difficult to stack for any mage not using DoTs or spamming low cooldown abilities

Ok sure but whyJul 14, 201815 votes

Isn't the fact that all types of AP champions are able to properly utilize all types of AP items a good, positive, fun thing?

I used to go full crit Talon before his rework. The fact that I'm now forced to use item 3147 item 3071 item 3142 item 3814 instead of item 3095 item 3031 item 3087 item 3046 actually breaks my heart! He used to be so damn fun before they butchered that build path on him.

Auz the RipperJul 14, 20182 votes

Well, i mean it’s more the rework that killed crit talon, considering he lost his 27.5% increase to autoattack damage

Ok sure but whyJul 14, 20182 votes

Exactly! I used to run the full 45% bonus crit damage run page on him, so one quick E-Q combo alone would do a whole 411% of his AD, in one super duper powerful auto attack. It was great! He wasn't reliant on his ultimate to do 40% of his damage! He could use that to escape, instead! Now, all Talon has is that annoying walljump that brings the enemy absolutely no joy to deal with.

NineTailedMysticJul 15, 20183 votes

Implying that blink > 411% AD Auto Attack was any joy for them either.

HP CrookshanksJul 14, 201811 votes

Riot always favored AD over AP. ADs also have much better rune options.

Wolf and GunJul 14, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-14T06:43:50.482+0000)

Riot always favored AD over AP. ADs also have much better rune options.

Just curious, why do you state that? How was AD favored?

Seer of MindJul 14, 20185 votes

Conqueror.

AirKingNeoJul 14, 20182 votes

Conqueror is already proven to not be that strong.

Succubús GFJul 14, 20186 votes

Conqueror, null orb, resolve tree. Shall i go on? Hexdrinker is more efficient than seekers. Oh right and duskblade just exists Meanwhile dgf got deleted for a similar reason of it still existing.

Modl Ryden lJul 14, 201811 votes

Sure, let's just completely neglect item 3145 item 3152 item 3030 item 3146

Plus, you have to understand, that it's much easier to homogenize AP items since most of them being casters (meaning your damage output though abilities) the only 2 things they care about are 1) Ability Power 2) Cooldown Reduction.

AD items on the other hand have much more variance in how their damage is output. Those whose damage comes primarily from basic attacks will often want to focus on attack speed/critical strike/on-hit. Seldom will you see AP-builders stack attack speed stats, therefore items for AP-Attack Speed items are severely limited as you can see with item 3115 .

Additionally, AP-builders have more or less similar playstyles. They don't have as many variances in their sub-classes. It's generally just mage, with like 1 or 2 fighters, 2 assassins, 2 tanks. Whereas AD-builders are typically labelled as marksman, assassin, fighter, tank.

I'm sure if you were to categorize the champs by primary adaptive stat AD or AP, then categorize each stat-group by primary role/class, you'll see that AP builders are primarily mages.

Warlord RhinarkJul 14, 201810 votes

I still want Abyssal Mask to be reverted back to Abyssal Scepter.

I might make this into a post later.

Ok sure but whyJul 14, 20181 votes

do it

Warlord RhinarkJul 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ok sure but why,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-07-14T07:28:01.380+0000)

do it

Like I said, I'll make it later.

From what I can gather from the Internet, the clock is 00:30 in Pacific Time, so I'm not guessing there's a lot of people that are currently online over there in America, so I'm not guessing there's a lot of people that are going to see the post.

Ok sure but whyJul 14, 20182 votes

do it

BLACK REALM GODJul 14, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-14T06:41:45.778+0000)

I still want Abyssal Mask to be reverted back to Abyssal Scepter.

I might make this into a post later.

i'd like the two items to both exist at the same time independent of one another with the aura being a unique passive.

Warlord RhinarkJul 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-07-14T09:40:50.929+0000)

i'd like the two items to both exist at the same time independent of one another with the aura being a unique passive.

Idk.

Sounds kinda unnecessary.

BLACK REALM GODJul 14, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-07-14T10:03:52.068+0000)

Idk.

Sounds kinda unnecessary.

yeah? well i think having 3 hextec guns is unnecessary.

RevokeJul 14, 20188 votes

Ok, there's not a single AP assassin I can think of that uses Nashors for their meta build and AD fighters uses cleaver more than AD assassin.

Seer of MindJul 14, 20185 votes

Diana.

RevokeJul 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Diana.

Diana isn't an assassin.

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 14, 20182 votes

Debateable v0v

She's listed as a fighter but functions as a Bursty Assassin.

SunbreakerJul 14, 20184 votes

Wukong is also listed as a fighter, but I think we all know how he is really played. Actually i would say Wuk is more of an assassin than Diana because of her lack of escape and shield.

RevokeJul 14, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Jack Rabbit,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=83ezaylr,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T08:40:52.179+0000)

Debateable v0v

She's listed as a fighter but functions as a Bursty Assassin.

She's as much an assassin as lethality J4 or Full AP Malphite. Yes she can be played as an assassin, but she's more of a diver.

Ok sure but whyJul 14, 20182 votes

I miss the old Eve

Sire HippingtonJul 14, 20187 votes

That's a poorly informed and flawed post here, half of the ad-items you listed yre used by multiple ad-classes and some like mercurial and BC aren't even items intendet/used by the class you out them in...and mana mune is basically a ezreal only item.

While on the other hand, you didn't bother to split ap users in different categories and distribute items. Few mages use lichbane while all (melee)asassins do, nashors isn't used by mages at all exept a few oriannas, spellbinder is prettymuch only ryze, vlad and maybe casiio or swain, no word on any of the hextech items that favour assasins or guinsoo's which is usefull on ap-onhit champs as much as it is on ad-onhit.

Not saying ap isn't lacking a bit in their itemisation, but you're comparision is still bad. Also, all ap-champs useing alot of the ap-items actually allows more built diversity for them, it's much better than assasins building basically the same 4-5 items every game, or adc always going IE+Shive+RFC+LDR as it was not so long ago. Items beeing usefull for many champs actually is a positive thing that promptes built diversity.

Stars ShaperJul 14, 20185 votes

Because they have few stats all of which are core:

Mana item in order to sustain their casts, AP and MPen to do damage.

I'm asking for a new "AP" stat since a while now in order to differentiate Mages classes and AP Assassins

HäxelJul 14, 20184 votes

while AP players have been begging for better itemization for a long time.

Which they got like every year. And maybe not everytime it was good but the one you got this year realy fixed much.

The misconception that there are simply more AD champs than AP is not true. There are almost the same amount of AP champs in the game as AD. Take a look at the list

it doesn't come up to this. it just comes up to stats the diffrent classes skale. Adcs scale with ad, as and cit or onhit. Assassins like their ad- lethalaty mix. Fighters beside ad like to be more bulky, so ehalth and lifesteal is good.

Looking at all the ap champs they like, well, ap. Ofcourse magicpen and cdr is also nice, but most chapions like cdr and magicpen with the boots is available to every ap champ plus voidstuff si amndatory for every ap champ to go threw mr. So even if you make even more diffrent ap items and effects, as long as it is attractiv to every ap champ it is ahrd to split the items up.

Lets looka t exampel at Rumble . Mages normaly have not much health but gain much threw the items, as you cans ee there are a lot of ap health items. But rumble as a toplanechamp has more health as a mage. This makes especially item 3151 really broken on him as he not only gets more dmg but also gets super tanky. without changing the champions you can't change much the items or introduce new ones as it will always give one class who dominates with the items.

RouwhorstJul 14, 20181 votes

AP fighters [sg-miss-fortune] Name a few

CasterGilgameshJul 14, 20181 votes

its a class thats very similar to battle mages Diana comes to mind she was never released as an assassin she just happens to be forced into the assassin like play style since all mage items just cater to burst damage play patterns besides item 3151 also Akali is a fighter Assassin any melee fighter that has mainly ap scaling and wants to deal dps and be tanky is an ap fighter