Boards›Gameplay

The Boards sucks at comparing champions

Marshbouy··120 votes·20,668 views

Have you ever heard the following questions? "Why do ADs get a cleanse but APs don't?" "Why do APs get zhonyas but aDs don't?" "Why does Zed have higher base health than Shen?" "Why does Pyke's hook suck so much compared to Blitz or Thresh?" "Why does Zed W have a 22 second cooldown while Camilles E have only a 16 second cooldown?"

and my personal favorite: "Why do mages have the lowest base mana pools?

These kinds of questions aren't productive because they fail to take into consideration champion abilities and their effects, scaling, power spikes, game play patterns, etc.

They boil complex champion kits and strategies down to numbers or 2 dimensional comparisons to make a crappy point. Lets take a look at a simple and very good example of this. #Miss Fortune has shit base AD for an ADC. MissFortune 50-96 For comparison Caitlyn 57-107 Ashe 61-111 Tristana 61-114

Karthus 46-101

I mean for fucks sake, Karthus, who's auto attacks are basically a meme, has a higher base AD at level 18 than Miss Fortune does. Rito buff pls, right?

No.

If you take a closer look at her kit, you'll realize that while she has very low base AD, she also has a passive that greatly increases her damage dealt on her first auto against a champion. If she were to have a base AD closer to that of other champions in her class, she would utterly crush them in lane because of her passive. Therefore her passive and lower base AD balance each other out.

For a second example #Mages have lower base mana pools than any other class. This is one of the most aggravating comparisons that I've seen for the following reasons.

  1. Other classes don't have a mana starting item tailored towards them. ADCs can't builditem 1056 to start. Neither can AD assassins, AD bruisers, wardens, etc. it's not going to work.

  2. Other classes don't have loads of mana tacked onto their items. item 3003 item 3285 item 3030 item 3027 The best other classes get are wardens who have items like item 3025 item 3001 item 3800 item 3222 and ADs get item 3508 which is pretty niche. I think you'd have a really hard time convincing a Talon to build Essence Reaver to deal with any mana issues he might have.

  3. Mages have runes tailored to them. Manaflow band and presence of mind.

  4. Many mage kits have mana regen in their kits somehow. The first ones that come to mind are Karthus Xerath Lissandra This doesn't apply to all, but it is still a relevant factor.

I think I've done a good job of showing that extremely basic comparisons of stats is a waste of time and unproductive. It's harder to find good examples of classes of champions needing mirrored items, like an AD Zhonyas or an AP cleanse item, but my point still stands.

#You can't compare two different champions by stats, items, or abilities alone because they're so much more complex than that.

The only way to get a good estimate of champion strength vs other champions is by looking at in-game stats of skilled players facing off against other skilled players. In game you can't cherry pick the strengths of one champion vs another.

#So then how can we see that a champion or champion class needs adjustments? By looking at sites like OP.GG we can see how champions compare against others. If Mages are consistently losing more than ~50% of games against AD champions in the mid lane then something needs to be adjusted. If Zed is crushing other champions in lane and winning very consistently with a high play %, something needs to be adjusted.

#But you cannot compare two isolated abilities, items, or base stats at face value and draw conclusions from them. ######so stop doing it.

EDIT: #To further elaborate on deficiencies in champion classes that you wouldn't expect.

Why do tanks have lower base HP?

  1. Runes tailored to giving them more HP.

  2. Items tailored to giving them more HP.

  3. Abilities they have tailored to giving them more defensive stats.

  4. High armor and mr

Why does riot do this? Simple answer: If you make a champion weaker in a specific way (E.G. a champion who's kit supports building damage doesn't have the stats to actually deal damage) then you can direct them towards a build path/playstyle that is intended.

that was probably really hard to understand, so I'm going to go into an in depth hypothetical example with a few champions.

In order to make sure that Zed has "balanced stats" or whatever compared to "tanks" he has his base HP lowered significantly. In order to ensure that he isn't totally garbage compared to other AD assassins, he has his damage buffed higher.

Now in order to function properly Zed must rely off of his base damages to deal damage while building tank items so that he can live for longer than .5 seconds. An AD assassin would have to start build TANK items in order to function properly. This doesn't make any sense from a player perspective.

On the flip side, Shen now has really high base HP and defensive stats, but his damages need to be gutted so he doesn't completely wreck top lane. As a result, shen (a duelist tank) needs to stat building more DAMAGE ITEMS in order to be as effective as he could be.

#TLD;DR of edit: Champions have specifically lowered base stats in one area to make them build the way that they're intended. Champions designed to be tanks have to build tank items to make up for their lowered tank stats. Damage champions designed to be damage champions have to build damage items to make up for their lowered damage stats.

113 Comments

Akali is SO HOT29 votes

Why does Master Yi only get an MS/AS buff and immunity to slows while Kayle gets invincibility on her ult? Not fair to Yi tbh he needs invincibility on his ult as well.

Velzard of Koz9 votes

Well theoretically with enough on-hits and enough Qs...

Flavi Kang12 votes

If I read another comment saying that Yi becomes invulnerable during alpha strike, I'm gonna flip my shit.

HE BECOMES UNTARGETABLE, NOT INVULNERABLE. THEY ARE BOTH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Velzard of Koz14 votes

I said theoretically for that very reason. Can't die of after-effects If they don't have time to apply them on you.

https://memegenerator.net/img/images/16779622.jpg

And let's be completely honest, that ability is so buggy he isn't even outright untargetable.

Freevageeter19 votes

Yeah, the karthus AD thing in laning phase is fucking torture. Last hitting with his autos is basically hell on a plate.

Daddy Ants3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the karthus AD thing in laning phase is fucking torture. Last hitting with his autos is basically hell on a plate.

I believe his q helps with cs'ing.

it's like 20 mana cost lul and spamable.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

On the flipside, I strangely find his auto attack animation to be one of the most clear and intuitive ones in the game.

webstar199511 votes

MF passive and Q give her more burst than any other ADC probably. Hence why she has the highest winrate.

Marshbouy9 votes

that's the point. You can't compare things like stats in isolation.

webstar199511 votes

Yes I completely agree. I hate it when people complain about champs doing too much damage when they have no cc or no mobility. Just whiners

Marshbouy5 votes

okay, I couldn't quite tell for your first comment

Jinzo Torrance10 votes

Mages had that exact same mana pool for years tho, it's just recently that it became a problem because of high damage and early ganks being so strong that braindead waveclearing to become the safer option.

Also why tanks have that much Health following your reasoning for mages Mana? Their health should be lowered to make up for it since they only buy health items, no? Same for AD champions AD and AS per level? Yeah, I don't think so, that argument is kinda flawed.

webstar19953 votes

This is all changed slightly in preseasons

Marshbouy3 votes

IIRC shen has a lower base health than Zed. That's only one example, but if you could actually provide evidence that tanks have a much higher base health pool, AD champs have a much higher base AD pool, etc than they should have then go ahead.

Ralanr12 votes

Plus Shen’s base health is so low because of his shield passive. Sion’s is so low because of his stacking passive.

Jinzo Torrance4 votes

Juggernauts have the highest base AD and Health pools in the game, they also build both of these stats, therefore they should be lowered like mages Mana has been lowered (They have around 140-150, highest mage is Zoe at 114. Base health is around 2250 and highest mage is Sol with 2126)

Let's go on M2 clickers, Jhin, Draven and Graves have around 120 and 1100 mana, Zoe has a base AD of 114 and 800 mana, as you can see they build mostly AD, their kit amplifies this AD too in some way (Jhin passive, Draven Q, Graves passive auto) so this is a no-no, half the AD-growth like they halved mages mana growth.

Every ADC has more AS than mages, why Twitch, Ashe and Cait have 1.0+ AS when the highest mage (barring Ori because they want her to auto with passive) has 0.894? Nerf, they build said AS, Viktor doesn't.

Zac, Tahm, Alistar, Galio (Zac has a revive passive too) and some other fucking useless tank/Bruiser champions usually have around 2200 base health, Braum, Leona and Blitzy have 110+ Armor and two of them gain even more by using skills in their kit, highest is Viktor with 90.7 and he doesn't build none usually.

As you can see only mage Mana has this reasoning and again... this was only until recently where Riot tried to fix braindead pushing being the most common playstyle.

Also Shen (like GP) has low base health because they have instant global ultimates, not because he's a tank with some way of mitigating damage.

TehNACHO2 votes

So Juggernauts are weirdos design wise. One thing to note though is that Base AD was originally intended to be a defining stat for them (Sterak's). Furthermore, there seems to be an odd balancing act going on to allow Juggernauts to build AD "or" Health, given how many Health items don't offer AD and vice versa which would work perfectly well on a Juggernaut. AND THEN their whole premise is outpunching you so long as you're in their grip. In trade for wonkier than average kits, they get more stats for it.

And then many of the Tanks you listed are supports for most of history so...

Sp33d Zer02 votes

Jhin Draven and Graves rely on abilities/passives that work as a sort of "cap" to how fast they can attack. As a result they need more AD to balance out with other champions.

Troll for Trump4 votes

Juggernauts are basically meant to be walking stat sticks. They lack other things like mobility, utility, cc, etc.

Flavi Kang7 votes

I just read this amazing question somewhere on the boards

"wHy CaN Yi 1v1 XayAh WhEn Yi cOst 450 BE AnD xAyAH CoSt 6300 BE"

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Marshbouy5 votes

My favorite people on the boards are the ones who come from shitty P2W games and get angry when League of Legends is comparatively balanced.

HalcyonDweller6 votes

Great points, and well reasoned throughout. +1

Marshbouy4 votes

It's refreshing to write a well thought out post and have people like it.

I haven't done this in a while.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

{quoted}

It's refreshing to write a well thought out post and have people like it.

I haven't done this in a while.

Well congrats dude, you deserve it :)

wildfox995 votes

i agree on what you said,except for some points :

"Why do APs get zhonyas but aDs don't?"

they literally reworked item 3026 so they could have it

about the mana pool on mages,they also have the highest mana cost between al champions and their items should compensate that,not the low base mana pool

every other class have some mana pool/sustain item,lower mana cost and they don't rely on abilities as much as mages

not to mention this makes them reliant on those items for having the same stats as other champions

Oakleaf Ranger5 votes

Im just glad someone is calling out the garbage non sense I have been seeing on the front page recently.

Master yi this or zed that. Shit was getting annoying seeing the same slightly different (but still shitty) arguments/posts being made.

The kind of shit that really makes me wish we would at least have the option to sort posts by rank in some way.

Call me crazy but maybe if the front page was filled with posts by high elo players, more serious issues would be brought to light faster then by hard stuck bronze/silver, unranked, and aram players. For at least in the gameplay section.

Despìca Bìll2 votes

Your points are accurate, but most low ELO players aren't bitching about random stuff because they feel like it. They lack the understanding of the game that would allow them to identify what's actually happening, so they point fingers where they can see it; stats, anecdotes, and rumors. Having them post here gives high ELO/knowledgeable players the chance to give them feedback and advice, pointing out what's actually happening.

...That's the idea, anyway. In reality, you're right, it doesn't work that way, and the boards are filled with retards raging over champs that are only OP because they're easy to play but their interactions are hard to understand. This is compounded by the fact that their very lack of understanding prevents them from correcting it...It's the Dunning-Kreuger Effect.

Teridax684 votes

This is a well-written thread that makes good and necessary points. Too often I've seen users draw comparisons between two completely unrelated champions, with the very clear goal of asking for a buff to one or a nerf to the other. Usually, the comparison is so poor that it falls apart with even a modicum of thought, though unfortunately those kinds of threads still often find themselves upvoted, simply because others agree with the conclusion, rather than the premise or reasoning. It's not conducive to the best discussion, and remains one of the major reasons why Gameplay doesn't have the best reputation either.

If there's one point of contention I have, though, it's on the notion of intuitiveness: for sure, it's more intuitive to have a damage champion build damage items, a tank build tank items, and so on, compared to the opposite, but there is nonetheless a tradeoff when the incentive to do so is done with below-average base stats. It's arguably as unintuitive for, say, a damage-dealer to have below-average damage, as it is for them to build stuff that's not damage. As a result, many people don't immediately comprehend the reasons behind such balancing decisions, which is also then why we then need threads like these to clarify the situation. One way or another, there is a tradeoff in intuitiveness with the way League is currently designed.

One criticism I do think is valid of the current system, additionally, is that when a champion has low baseline power for what they're meant to accomplish, and is instead made to rely on items to do their thing, that tends to make games innately more snowbally, and not in a particularly fun way: if a damage champion snowballs and gets lots of damage items, for example, they may start doing too much damage for anyone else to handle, but if they fall behind, suddenly they become incapable of contributing to their team, or close to it. How harsh this impact is can be tuned with changes to bases and bonuses from runes and items, but right now a lot of players feel like it's a bit too severe. Personally, I question the need for this kind of snowballing entirely, as I don't think it's ever good for a player to feel useless, or close to it, simply because they lacked enough stats in a match.

C10 Rekkles3 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy8 votes

I don't want to individually answer every single bs question that people have. Clearly you didn't read the post if you can't already figure out the answer for yourself, but here we go.

  1. Tanks have masteries tailored to them to give them more HP.

  2. AD assassins don't have many, if any items that grant them more HP.

  3. The vast majority of tank items give health. If they don't, they grant resistances.

  4. Tanks tend to have abilities in their kits that give them defensive stats. For example, Shen has a passive which grants him a percent max health shield when he casts an ability.

Tegash3 votes

Vi has a %max health shield whenever she casts an ability too. Is Vi a tank?

This Is Your Dad3 votes

{quoted}

Vi has a %max health shield whenever she casts an ability too. Is Vi a tank?

She's a fighter compared to shen because shen has a global support ult that is designed to come in and tank, a taunt and an auto attack negation from w, as well as % hp damage I think. Most tanks do % hp damage somewhere in their kits. While Vi has her W, she can't quite keep them off of the squishies like shen can. I really think tanks are designed to keep other teammates alive and fighters are designed to lock down other champs. It's not always a straight line between fighter and tank. Nasus wither and his armor reduction and ult could make him a "tank" but as you know he doesn't perform well in teamfights. Vi doesn't either, but a shen or a malphite instantly debuffs an entire team at once. Most of vi's kit, for instance, seems to be single target lock down.

thaBeast15 votes

[{quoted}](name=C10 Gun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=81zTAxWE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-06-26T16:07:18.862+0000)

So then explain why Zed has a higher base HP? Don't just make a thread telling people they suck at comparing when you can't even explain yourself.

zed doesnt have a shield or a w that blocks autos

dogehkiin6 votes

[{quoted}](name=C10 Gun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=81zTAxWE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-06-26T16:07:18.862+0000)

So then explain why Zed has a higher base HP? Don't just make a thread telling people they suck at comparing when you can't even explain yourself.

He explained it, he has high base hp to avoid him getting tank items and like every assasin his scalings are Bonus AD and he has low BASE damages to force him into building high AD items.

AR URF2 votes

why do assassins get to oneshot but ADC's don't?

shockprimex4 votes

I didn't know Veigar Velkoz Annie Jax Karthus Nunu Sion Warwick Ziggs Xerath Syndra Vladimir Orianna were assassins.

Lauchmelder5 votes

If you get oneshot by a bloody Karthus you did something wrong the first 20 times.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

As stated by Satomi you clearly haven't seen the funnel strat. Predator Karthus+Celerity+Nunu Blood boil causes Requiem to do ABSURD amounts of damage.

Lauchmelder2 votes

So we are counting strats obviously unintended for the game?

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

You asked how you get one shot by karthus. I gave you an answer. I don't care what your stance is on if it is intended or not. I am just telling you HOW Karthus one shots you. You didn't say, "If you get oneshot by a bloody standard laning Karthus you did something wrong the first 20 times.", you simply said "Karthus" to which I gave you a COMPLETELY valid scenario in which Karthus kills you with his ultimate. Don't shoot the messenger.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Why are so many divers better assassins than actual assassins?

xxxDogmanxxx3 votes

Because Divers understand that getting blown up in the late game is a no-no, so we build tank items to prevent it.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Because Divers understand that getting blown up in the late game is a no-no, so we build tank items to prevent it.

but Diver also burst harder and faster than Assassins tho.

xxxDogmanxxx4 votes

They really don't, and if you claim they do, I'm gonna ask you to prove it, and you will not be able to.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

They really don't, and if you claim they do, I'm gonna ask you to prove it, and you will not be able to.

XinZhao Diana MonkeyKing Hecarim JarvanIV Renekton ?

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

{quoted}

XinZhao Diana MonkeyKing Hecarim JarvanIV Renekton ?

You gave a list of champions, but where's the proof that they burst harder than assassins?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

You gave a list of champions, but where's the proof that they burst harder than assassins?

Unlike most assassins, these guys don't have delays in their kit? I mean, have you played against them?

xxxDogmanxxx1 votes

{quoted}

Unlike most assassins, these guys don't have delays in their kit? I mean, have you played against them?

I have indeed played against all of them. In fact, I even main one of them, Xin Zhao. Asking me if I have played against them does not prove or disprove anything, it is irrelevant.

If you want to claim they burst harder than assassins, then prove it with hard number statistics, or a link to a custom game comparing their burst to similarly fed assassins, or a practice tool theory craft, or any number and manner of actual proof.

When claiming anything, burden of proof lies with you, not your audience.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I mean they 100-0 people arguably faster and some even have better target access (Noc specifically).

The only thing assassins have going for them is the ability to escape. Divers use tankiness instead.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

Nocturne is an assassin according to Riot, tho.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Marshbouy

I'm going to get downvoted to hell for this
Gameplay162 comments
209
votes
WHY DID YOU BUFF XIN
Gameplay145 comments
198
votes
A quick thank you to the people who dodge *those* games.
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous51 comments
193
votes
I played with a jungler who refused to gank, against an illaoi.
Gameplay222 comments
182
votes
Can't wait for the balance shitfest caused by new runes.
Gameplay161 comments
173
votes
So deep terror nami was removed from the arbiter program...
Boards Feedback116 comments
163
votes