There should be a vampiric sceptre upgrade that restores mana and builds in to essence reaver

Valhalla Rising··73 votes·3,072 views

why? more like why not.

vamp scepter+longsword+gold = essence blade, 25 attack damage, 10% lifesteal, unique passive: basic attack restore 5 mana over 3 seconds, OR killing a unit restores 3 mana.

this is the only build path unless riot makes a 5% cdr item.

hook it up please.

Edit: It would seem clear from the replies that the main issue with this is overpowering certain champs laning phase, and it is being compared to tear/muramana.

if we're talking about the item riot was considering but never put it in the rift; http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Soul_Sickle

then yes I would agree it's too powerful because even with just this item, a player would mostly likely have around 100 ad at that point, and as a result would be restoring 1-6 mana per basic attack, with every additional point of ad the player adds this amount would increase by roughly 1%, and with crit/on hit's it get's increased by 2-3+%.

which means a player could sit on this 1400g item and it's value would continue to scale with other items, restoring something like 50-80 mana per hit later game without completing essence reaver, this is just too strong BUT.

that's why I suggested an item with flat mana regen on hit, so it's value stays the same and it's power is capped until it is upgraded into essence reaver.

still, maybe 25 ad is a bit high, so i guess another build path could include a vamp sceptre+faerie charm instead of longsword, and the final items could have 15 ad, 10% lifesteal, and restore 5 mana over 3 seconds on hit or 3 mana per unit killed.

another idea (which contradicts the title of my post, but accomplishes the same goal) would be to make forbidden idol build into an ad item; idol+longsword+240gold = forbidden sword with 15 ad, 10%, and restores flat mana on hit or unit killed. forbidden sword+vamp sceptre+pickaxe=essence reaver.

comparing this flat mana regen to tear is kind of hard because tear gives much more mana sustain+permanent max mana, has a lower cost, and offers a unique mechanic once manamune/muramana is complete.

I don't think having ER build from forbidden idol is the correct answer unless it built into an early ad/mana sustain item in place of the vamp sceptre/lifeseteal, the mana regen and cdr is just not good enough for an ad champ to sit on while they complete higher priority items like ie/lw.

p.s. 5 mana over 3 seconds on hit or 3 mana on unit killed is actually really low if you compare it to a dorans ring which basically doubles that, so maybe this item could use more, lets say 6 or 7 mana over 3 seconds on hit, or 4 mana on unit killed.

thanks for your consideration.

45 Comments

Erockandroll26 votes

They looked at an item like that, which they called soul sickle. No Idea why they scraped it.

DeusVult4 votes

i don't either, because leaving essence reaver as a last tier item up there with bt and IE, it will always fall short compared to them. Getting mana back is a mid game priority, not a late game one

LeeDark1 votes

Same reason they nerfed mage mana regen. Infinite sustain is ridiculous. The only difference was that Pantheon never got to chuck javelins as if he had energy for a resource, while the mages did get a couple of seasons where they laughed about running out of mana.

Pyro1 votes

Pantheon.

The problem with Soul Sickle is that if it works in the laning phase, it could allow Pantheon and Jayce to spam their spells indefinitely. Chugging on potions and waiting until they run out of mana is intended to be a valid strategy.

Erockandroll3 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon.

The problem with Soul Sickle is that if it works in the laning phase, it could allow Pantheon and Jayce to spam their spells indefinitely. Chugging on potions and waiting until they run out of mana is intended to be a valid strategy.

{quoted}

Because jayce doesn't need to completely faceroll top lane, I'd assume is the reason.

Arguably, you could balance those champs around it, assuming it would have helped more champions than it would have broke.

But the General Notion I am getting is that, it (and probably Essence Reaver too) would be problematic when it works because High damage, fast clearing champions would never be gated by mana. (it's like Spirit stone for laners, and we all know why spirit stone was a problem)

lojician1 votes

Because jayce doesn't need to completely faceroll lane, I'd assume is the reason. Ranged poke is supposedly gated by mana and having essence reaver be a laning item would break that. Same reason champions can't just build chalice to become manaless any more.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Yup. That item existed at one point in PBE. There just wasn't a good way to implement an item that increases damage, mana sustain and sustain on an ADC for laning. Turned out to be too much so they decided they wanted to keep that effect as a mid-lategame mechanic.

Sad that marksmen ruined it for other mana based AD casters.

TonyTonyMordecai8 votes

I think if they make Essence Reaver interact with targeted abilities and/or skillshots with the basic attack return, it would help with the whole "mana return" thing, because most marksmen/AD casters need the mana regen, but most mana regen items don't really favor towards those who build AD, besides muramana, but that item takes time to stack and to actually become impactful. If they made a split build path to make it an AP item or the Essence Reaver, it would probably be very nice, and make AD caster champions not as mana-starved early on, or even late, when spell spamming happens too often anyway.

A Miss Fortune4 votes

Essence Reaver is a nice item, though it's not often built. It just doesn't compete with other items. It costs too much and items like Infinity Edge easily outshine it.

Increasing Essence's Reaver mana restoration, and maybe even giving it a little bit of lifesteal or something like movement speed would make it better. Maybe it could be a utility/sustain tool for ADCs since there isn't really much of that unless you count +100 Damage as utility or sustain.

I personally do build Essence Reaver on Sivir. Using it for Ezreal and maybe Twitch or Urgot are also good.

These are just my opinions.

JevelFaithful2 votes

So what you're saying is that there would be a niche for a cheap AD+some mana like the OP's presenting? That manamune's problem is that it's too much about mana while Essence reaver is too expensive?

Aheadatime3 votes

{quoted}

Increasing Essence's Reaver mana restoration, and maybe even giving it a little bit of lifesteal or something like movement speed would make it better. Maybe it could be a utility/sustain tool for ADCs since there isn't really much of that unless you count +100 Damage as utility or sustain.

It does give you lifesteal. The final item has 10% lifesteal and 10% CDR.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

I meant spellvamp, most ADCs who buy it use abilities.

The 10% CDR is nice too but I mean like, a sort of Zephyr thing. Where it's more utility less damage.

Major Sparkles1 votes

Comparing Essence Reaver to IE is strange. Essence Reaver fills the same niche as bloodthirster.

Dayblazer2 votes

{quoted}

Comparing Essence Reaver to IE is strange. Essence Reaver fills the same niche as bloodthirster.

They both fill a slot on a ADC's bar. Either you want BT or you want IE which both outshine Essence Reaver.

Major Sparkles1 votes

Eh... Essence Reaver for spell weaving champs like Ezreal, Sivir, and Jayce is better than bloodthirster IMO. They both have their purposes.

Dayblazer4 votes

{quoted}

Eh... Essence Reaver for spell weaving champs like Ezreal, Sivir, and Jayce is better than bloodthirster IMO. They both have their purposes.

overall its not. BT's shield is alot better then getting mana per hit.

Major Sparkles2 votes

I see we can agree to disagree.

LeeDark3 votes

That late in the game mana rarely matters, and earlier in the game it is SUPPOSED to matter. Agree to disagree all you want: a shield that keeps you alive longer is better than mana when you aren't likely to run out of mana quickly anyway.

supes the lost1 votes

You seem to be overlooking the fact that BT the BT shield is barely worth anything since the main set of people who build it are adcs, and since defensive items are the last thing they build, the shield means almost nothing when a single auto from the enemy adc breaks it near immediately.

Sightless662 votes

The shield is worth quite a bit. It serves as a flat health buffer, which is valuable when you have no other defensive sources. It's the difference of a couple hundred health. That matters a lot more than mana regen.

supes the lost2 votes

I guess you do make a point, plus, BT without counting their passives, has more stats that a normal adc would like because they are mostly less dependant on cdr and mana, and the one who are get other items, like lucian with youmu's for his cdr.

Sightless664 votes

It's not just that an AD carry doesn't like CDR. It's that they can't get enough of it to make it good. A rule of CDR is that every point of CDR makes every other point of CDR better (10% gives an 11% increase in spell usage, 40% gives a 66% increase, and 50% would give a 100% increase). So, the 10% CDR on Essence Reaver isn't worth it for anyone. It's only worth it if I can get other CDR items, and I just can't on most carries. I can maybe, maybe get a Ghostblade for another 10% CDR, but even that is oftentimes a bad purchase, and I have no other good CDR options (only Lucian can really use CDR boots). I might buy Essence Reaver on some champions if I could get other CDR items without just having a weaker build, but I really can't.

LeeDark1 votes

That shield absorbs the random stray poke that the ADC takes in a late siege, letting them get off an extra shot on the tower or back off and return to the engagement a bit faster.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

More like the item win rates on these champions can agree that they disagree with you.

420 Swag Warrior1 votes

{quoted}

Essence Reaver is a nice item, though it's not often built. It just doesn't compete with other items. It costs too much and items like Infinity Edge easily outshine it.

Increasing Essence's Reaver mana restoration, and maybe even giving it a little bit of lifesteal or something like movement speed would make it better. Maybe it could be a utility/sustain tool for ADCs since there isn't really much of that unless you count +100 Damage as utility or sustain.

I personally do build Essence Reaver on Sivir. Using it for Ezreal and maybe Twitch or Urgot are also good.

These are just my opinions.

Aside from ADCs, I haven't tried it yet but I'm sure it'd benefit Yorick early on.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

That is actually a good idea since Yorick is I think mana hungry? Plus the CDR and lifesteal and AD all fit well with him.

I believe I will buy Yorick as soon as I can and I will make sure to test out Essence Reaver.

PatMcGroyn3 votes

I think they should just add Forbidden Idol to the build, give the item some flat regen on top of the on- hit mana restore. Maybe let it build out of Pickaxe instead of BF.

With that said, people STILL won't build it over Bloodthirster - the shield and double lifesteal are WAY too valuable. If Riot wants Essence Reaver to be a thing, they need to give it 20% CDR. I know that I would build Reaver on caster ADCs and AD Bruisers if I could cap CDR with ER + Ionian Boots + Masteries.

LeeDark1 votes

Except you'd likely want Brutalizer, so probably 5% CDR in glyphs plus the mastery instead of Ionian boots.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

{quoted}

Except you'd likely want Brutalizer, so probably 5% CDR in glyphs plus the mastery instead of Ionian boots.

Either way works. I don't always like building Brutalizer, normally Last Whisper is enough for my Arm Pen needs.

Tin Tarantino3 votes

If anything the vampiric scepter in the build should be replaced by an item with a smaller version of the mana restoring effect.

Dayblazer2 votes

It suffers from why build it syndrome.

Why build it when I can build BT instead. Why build it when I need IE instead. Why build it when...

ABlueQuaker2 votes

I feel like ER needs more Life Steal to be competitively viable.

The only difference between BT and ER should be their passives.

Daedalus8712 votes

Essence reaver really needs to build out of item 3114 + item 1037 + item 1053

Tourian2 votes

Fun fact: There was a test item on the PBE a while back that was essentially an essence reaver mini, called Soul Syphon or something like that, cost 1400 g. Got lost somewhere.

Tourian3 votes
Oleandervine2 votes

A quick and very easy way to help the mana restore with caster AD characters would be to change the proc of the ability to physical damage instead of basic attacks, like how the Black Cleaver's armor shred is. I also feel like giving it Armor Pen would help too, maybe have it build from Brutalizer, Pickaxe, and Vampiric Scepter. That way it keeps roughly the same stats but adds in the useful armor pen which will make it more appealing.

Zarxis2 votes

As far as I know, Riot has never openly explained why they didn't add an item like this in Essence Reaver's build path. If we had this intermediary item, it wouldn't feel like such a handicap when compared to other big AD items. I really wish they would give it spellvamp instead of (or in addition to) lifesteal. That, and I wish they would make spellvamp a decent stat on anyone besides Vladimir, Mordekaiser, and Akali.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

Manamune has been in the game for years and the only reason it works is because you can sit on tear and buy other stats until you're ready to upgrade.

You can't do that with Reaver. Its basically voluntarily delaying the mana effects you likely want on your character.

Krinu2 votes

I use it on AD Kayle sometimes, but yeah, it has issues. The big one is that it doesn't build out of any mana regeneration items, so champs that might use it can't afford to build it first since they need the mana earlier.

Gati2 votes

Knowing riot they would never listen to us

Matezoide2 votes

The problem with Essence Reaver is that it has the stats and price of a late-game item, while having a passive made to help early-mid game mana issues, not to mention that it's recipe gives zero mana what-so-ever.

Early game, why would Jayce save all that gold for a BF Sword when he can just get a Tear for 700 g and actually be a threat in lane? If he attempts to rush Essence Reaver, he will get slaughtered by his lane opponent that actually gets to buy items while he waits for 1550 gold.

Yandere Carry1 votes

that'd be.... Essence Reaver.

Scazie1 votes

I think Riot failed the moment they made it a flat AD item.

Xela Syab1 votes

I don't know what the item needs, it seems to not make any impact or give any powerspike compared to any other item. It lacks utility to be frank. I'd rather them rework the item to be built with brutalizer and vamp scepter with some armor pen and remove the mana regen and give it some other utility maybe grievous wounds or an ability to remove buffs or sheilding from a champ.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Stop trying to make Essence Reaver happen.

It's not going to happen!

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