The State of Marksmen and the Rework Explained, part 2 (Why this Rework isn't it, Yet)

MealReadytoEat··33 votes·5,555 views

In part 1 of this post, Why they Need the Rework, I detailed the current state of marksmen, and why they are in that state. While this post more or less stands alone, it will make far more sense after reading the first part.

My first post made 5 main points :

  1. Teams need a marksmen to take contested objectives
  2. Teams need a marksmen to force their opponents to spend gold and item slots on armor
  3. Marksmen scale just as strong or stronger with gold as anyone else, but the least with XP, so a Marksmen + support is the ideal duo lane.
  4. Marksmen are uniquely similar and uninteresting, due to the nature of their strategic purposes and necessity
  5. All of these detract from making Marksmen fun

Now I'm going to address how each of these is, and could be, addressed in the Marksmen rework.


**Teams need a marksmen to take contested objectives. **- This is mostly about towers and inhibitors. Currently, Marksmen are the only class that can take defended towers, especially when good waveclear makes it too risky for melee champs to attack them. The rework address this in two ways - They increased the AP ratio on auto attacks against structures from .4 to .5, and they shifted Marksman itemization away from AD and AS into crit, effectively making them slightly worse against towers. They also slightly less than doubled tower HP while removing their armor and MR. This change makes the Armor and MR they get while no minions are present more significant (if anything a buff to marksmen), but as pen never worked against towers it's otherwise a completely agnostic change besides the slightly lower effective health - numbers are bigger, but a similar % of their hp.

Overall, these are good changes, but the extra utility and defenses marksmen items now gives will make defensive options less necessary on marksmen, so in the end I think they will end up taking towers as fast or faster. The removal of armor from towers should have happened a long time ago - when something always has the same effective health, it might as well have that as its actual health. Damage against towers is now much clearer - either 100% of your AD, or 100% of your base AD + 50% of your AP. It still punishes hybrid champs, as it only takes into account the higher of 1/2 of your AP, or your bonus AD.

There's two other thing I'd like to see to address the monopoly of Marksmen on tower siege; Ohmwrecker becoming a real item for sieging towers, oriented towards mid to late game 5 man dives under towers defended with ranged waveclear, rather than "that item that junglers rush to dive towers early game", and another AP item with strong function against towers. Nashor's would be a good candidate. A way to acheive this on Ohmwrecker would be to make the item scale with nearby allies, and freeze the Armor and MR the tower has during its active, so that if supporting minions are killed during its active the tower won't suddenly get 66% damage reduction.


Teams need a marksmen to force their opponents to spend gold and item slots on armor - HP can be purchased without seriously harming a champions offensive budget; RoA, Rylai's, Black Cleaver, Mallet, etc, while offensive armor items are left to Zhonya's, and to a lesser extent Sunfire Cape. HP alone is enough to survive the burst of assassin, or CD gated combo from most bruiser and fighters, yet the high sustained damage of marksmen forced large chunks of the champion pool to build some form of armor. This in turn enabled magic damage based champions to remain effective, especially against champions with a large defense budget (tanks).

Juggernauts, including the likes of Olaf, have actually addressed this fairly well. Melee carries can't typically fill this role, as squishy melees have much greater vulnerability and lower reliability. Coordination and CC is much more valid against a melee than a ranged back liner. Juggernauts, on the other hand, can survive a reasonable level of CC and focus, while still putting out enough DPS that health stacking can't negate them. Mordkaiser simply works in reverse - he forces the building of MR, as he has high sustained damage and % hp magic damage, enabling AD burst on his team to function.

Some improvements to DPS options for AD assassins and bruisers would help, but the items changes on PBE accomplish this to some extent. Ghostblade will be a much better option for bruisers, while crit builds with a bit of AS will be better for assassins, thanks to two high AD items, as well as trinity force, offering 20% crit.

Among all the issues with marksmen, this is the one Riot has been doing the best at address. Things aren't perfect, but since 5.16 this alone no longer necessitates marksmen in a team comp.


**Marksmen scale just as strong or stronger with gold as anyone else, but the least with XP, so a Marksmen + Support is the ideal duo lane. **- This the elephant in the room for the marksmen rework. Marksmen have been given the variety and versatility needed to play outside of bot lane, while nothing has been done to make them less optimal in the duo lane. In fact, they've had their scaling per level reduced even further while their level 1 AD was buffed, making XP even less of an issue. I threw out some idea's on how to fix this here. Relic shield give 2 gp 10 on the pbe, which makes it a slightly better option for carries bot lane, but ultimately it's nearly as good for marksmen as it is melees. Mordekaiser has a gimmick on his W to get around this, but that's a gimmick, not a systemic or itemization change that would result in real variety. It just got nerfed, and the item changes screw him pretty hard anyway.

Until this is changed, marksmen will only see play outside of duo lanes when they are overpowered enough that teams can't successfully pick or itemize against multiple marksmen, even after the opportunity cost of what they replaced is paid. At the very least, we need some changes to make melee's either more reliable or more rewarding bot lane, with reliability the healthiest option._ Edit - this has been done to some extent, see part 3._


Marksmen are uniquely similar and uninteresting, due to the nature of their strategic purposes and necessity - The reworks on PBE makes ADC's far more diverse and fun to play. By and large they now have enjoyable game play and diversity. There's now multiple build paths available to each marksmen, and noticeably different builds between marksmen, due to multiple items that give noticeable defenses while still being quite offensive, and good CDR options.

Riot did a fairly good job addressing the monotony of playing ADC's, and the homogeneity between them, without addressing the systemic changes that resulted in them being balanced into the state they are in in the first place.


All of these detract from making Marksmen fun - If I were to give a number, I'd say that riot has dealt with half the balancing issue that have resulted in Marksmen being unfun to play in the first place. They then made them fun, without regard to the remaining balance issues holding them back on live. This is an early iteration of the PBE; I still have high hopes they will begin to address the remaining issue soon. Otherwise, expect a minimum of 4 marksmen a game.

Part 3, What, Why, and How the Preseason Changes the Game, is up! It goes in depth into all the systemic preseason changes, and their effect on the game. Please leave feedback, I'll try to address any questions.

35 Comments

AirSonance9 votes

I wish there was a separate thread for thought out articles on gameplay like these. Would make it a lot easier to find these in one place as opposed to buried under a pile of complaints, calls for buffs/nefs, and other common posts.

In other words, well done on the breakdown!

NoobOfLore1 votes

"I wish content I like was easier to find, and content I don't like much wasn't so prevalent."

I think you'll find this problem persists everywhere, about all things.

AirSonance1 votes

Point well made.

Rebonack5 votes

I've been saying it for a while now.

Nashor's OnHit damage should work on towers.

It's still a niche item for Mages, but this would help make the niche a bit cleaner.

Then you just need an item to cover monster-based objectives. To that end, I think it would be a pretty great idea if an IAS/AP item with Madred's old passive made a return. This would allow Mages to fill in for the ADC's objective securing roles if they felt so inclined.

MealReadytoEat3 votes

Some mages are pretty good at monster-based objectives, as are many melee's. That's not really the issue. It's towers, and towers defended with ranged waveclear at that, that is the issue that makes marksmen indispensable.

just a memory3 votes

I'm loving how well thought out these articles are.

Souijinn3 votes

HP and Armor does counter Assassins and Bruisers, but the problem is that even though some of them run off of abilities, the major problem is that the some of the AD champs utilize the same items as the Marksmen, and because they are AD, they never are useless while on cool down.

Yasuo is an example. Known to build item 3031 and other AD AS and Crit oriented items, He'll always deal significant damage after using his spells on you. Maybe this is secretly a complaint about crit, I don't know, but Assassins are known to always reach you in some means, and Bruisers /Fighters are known to be tanky themselves.

This may not be the ADC meta that every might think it could be. I think this is an AD champ Meta, where the AD mids, Assassins and all, are going to be stronger. These changes are advertised to be for Marksmen, but I'm not sure if Riot though about those who also have to utilize the same items.

Maybe we'll see another change soon to re-balance, but until then, I'll declare it the Attack Damage Meta, and not just the Marksmen are Everywhere meta.

MealReadytoEat3 votes

Its really a marksmen and assassin meta, with some Yasuo thrown in to fill the gap.

Talon and Rengar are BRUTAL, while Zed's about the same - weaker against Marksmen, stronger against Mages.

Yi and Trynd are interesting. I haven't really seen much Yi, and while Trynd is certainly helped by the new items, Marksmen top lane tend to stomp him pretty hard.

Yasuo is the only non-marksmen I expect to see any serious play as the carry bot lane, though. Morde is hurt HARD by these changes.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I expect nothing but physical assassins & carries next season, with so many bonuses to crits, tanks are going to become even more useless.

Ralanr2 votes

Something that's always bothered me about Marksmen: Graves is the kind of marksman that deals more damage with his abilities the closer he is. Therefore he is technically at a disadvantage when you can keep out of his short range (technically everyone is a disadvantage when you are out of their range). But being at the edge of his range means you take less damage then being point blank.

No other marksmen have this issue. Their damage does not change no matter how close or how far you are as long as it is within their range. This is annoying when fighting a top lane marksmen as they can just zone away from you easily, or (if they're feeling ballsy) be up close to you when you're at lower health and shoot you in the face.

Their ranged damage is supposedly counteracted by their squishiness, but with all the escapes they can pull off (and the fact that auto attacks don't miss) this doesn't feel like much of a sacrifice and it makes fighting one as a melee champion frustrating (Based on my experience with Mordekaiser bot). Which makes me wonder what the hell we can put in bot lane besides a marksman and a support? Two tanks?

I'm probably just bad at the game, but fighting a marksman when you have no range is one of the most frustrating things I've dealt with in the laning phase. They can poke safer from their tower, they usually have ways to escape other than summoner 4, which also makes wasting a summoner 4 more difficult. Escaping from them is frustrating because you can't avoid their autos (unless you're Pantheon or Jax and even then it's limited) so they could kill you in retreat.

I don't know. I just don't like fighting marksman/ranged autoattackers in top lane. Even if Graves AA range has been reduced, his AA's now knockback (though he can only fire off two before reloading, so it's counterable in theory). With a lot of these updates it seems they are allowing for marksmen to be more lane versatile. Which in all honesty is great for marksmen, but sucks for everyone else.

Personally, I wish marksman (with the exception of Graves cause that's his shtick) dealt less damage the closer they were to their target.

Sightless664 votes

Even if Graves's AA range has been reduced, his AA's now knockback

They only knockback minions and monsters.

If AD carries dealt less damage while at max range, That would be quite a bit of power lost. You'd have to actually buff them at close ranges to compensate for it, and then you run the risk of making them able to poke a melee champion down while also giving them a better chance of beating the melee champion in a straight fight. There's a reason Graves has base stats comparable to most melee champions now, and it's because he's not expected to lose a straight manfight with them.

It's also going to be aggressively unfun to play with. The ideal action you want to take as an ADC is kiting, but if you kite too well you won't contribute very well to fights. Not only is that annoying because it messes with your major goal, but it also adds to snowballing. If an ADC is too behind to get in close range to deal higher damage, then they'll also be screwed because they'll be heavily penalized for staying at the safe range. There are better balance methods that won't be so annoying to play with.

Ralanr1 votes

I meant dealing less damage in close range. But I see your point. Really I can't say I know anything of balance. I can only question.

Disulfiram1 votes

I don't really agree: while it's true that at range Grave's single target damage is considerably weaker, as far as I understood it also becomes area of effect damage... if this is the case then Graves is probably going to be one of the best lategame teamfighters, with high AoE damage when staying at range (which is strong during teamfights) and huge single target damage when manfighting (which is strong against divers). He's going to be an awful ranged duelist though...

So, all in all, I guess he's going to be Vayne's polar opposite.

Sightless664 votes

while it's true that at range Grave's single target damage is considerably weaker, as far as I understood it also becomes area of effect damage... if this is the case then Graves is probably going to be one of the best lategame teamfighters, with high AoE damage when staying at range (which is strong during teamfights) and huge single target damage when manfighting (which is strong against divers).

From what I've played that's not exactly the case. His autoattacks are only AoE if some of the bullets miss a target, and it's not going to do enough damage that way to make up for the lack of sustained damage that you have from your attack speed being so low. It's not really very good AoE damage if you try to use it that way, and you'll never be at a safe range doing it because your range is so short.

He's pretty much locked into the "jump one person and burst them" aspect. The AoE aspect of his autoattacks is a fallback pattern to stop him from being extremely weak when he makes mistakes or can't go all-in. It doesn't make him good in that situation. All it does is stop him from being terrible.

Disulfiram1 votes

In this case I guess he'll just stop being played as ADC and start being played as if he was a melee bruiser?

MealReadytoEat3 votes

He plays most like a melee bruiser - but he won't build like one. He's reliant on crits and CDR to dash frequently (it's lowered .5 seconds PER pellet, and crits shoot 8 (10 with IE) rather than 4. It's an ingenious way to balance him, really. His crits add quite a lower % increase in damage, as the first pellet does 3x the damage of the rest, but it's still an incredibly valuable stat.

LankPants2 votes

If AD carries dealt less damage while at max range, That would be quite a bit of power lost.

If I was going to limit (most) ADC's damage by range I'd go the other way and make them deal less damage at close ranges. That way it emphasises that these guys are meant to be glass cannons who are meant to win by kitting you out and if you can get into melee range of them you'll most likely win.

It probably wouldn't be a bad change either, if the assassin class didn't exist.

just a memory2 votes

Bump of Justice

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Thank you, you give me motivation to keep writing. The post is finished now, although I will likely end up fixing errors as I find them.

Faith Breaker1 votes

You didn't finish

MealReadytoEat2 votes

Should be done now!

7ha7guy7771 votes

So does this mean ad malz will be the tower taking king or will lich bane veigar (2 shots inhibs lategame) contest his throne? AD malz usually doesn't build crit or attack speed so he'll be stacking ad, cdr, and armor pen. He'll typically have 1-2 voidlings out hitting a turret while he does. They get focused by turrets so minions take less damage. Each voidling can potentially attack towers 1.5 times per second with 1.5 times his AD. So with 2 voidlings he could briefly hit towers for 3.5 times his AD (his auto, empowered voidling 1.5, and normal voidling). Even without attack speed, that's roughly 3.5x his AD each second (1400 or so lategame). That could be scary.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Malz had no buffs to his tower taking ability. Veigar did

just a memory1 votes

I like the ideas behind Riot's ADC revamps, to make itemization and champions more diverse and niche. Some of the means by which they are accomplishing this I am still skeptical of. I am having positive thoughts about the different Last Whisperer upgrades, each with their own utility.

Keep on trucking.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Indeed. A rioter just posted a few hours ago about some cool changes to minion aggro that should really help prevent ranged auto attack harass from completely zoning melee's (and other ranged champs, I suppose) away from CS.

These kind of systemic changes are what's needed for the map to be opened to marksmen, without closing the map to everything else.

henrebotha1 votes

This is some amazing analysis. I really hope you can get the designers to look at this. You should send FeralPony a link on ask.fm or something, I think you're onto some huge stuff.

I like what you say about addressing systemic issues vs just tweaking numbers. If all it took to fix the meta was to tweak numbers, we'd have arrived there by now.

MealReadytoEat2 votes

I took your advise and sent FeralPony a link, here's to hoping.

Zair Umbras1 votes

I agree almost completely. The only thing I don't agree is when you mention not enough Marksman gain much outside of a duo lane.

I will competely agree that a Marksman is ideal as they need items more than levels, BUT the likes of Graves, Quinn, and Varus (Who was played all season mid and even made it into World's as a mid) do scale really well with levels. Graves scales so well with everything that he can even go jungle right now and do one hell of an incredible job while Quinn's new ultimate has put her power budget more into her Q and Harrier. Quinn's new ulti also put her in such a good roaming position that she can compete with TF just because she can do it while his is on CD and even be able to get to the lane he's Ulti'ing to for a counter-gank or clean up. The clean up part especially since her Q now has an execute mechanic.

The biggest issue though with Bot Lane being ideal for Marksmen isn't their class, it's the fact that out of all the AP's we've had, almost all of them have high bases with limited ratios, so they need levels on TOP of the items. Currently, the only champs who have more ratios than bases are Azir after that Q nerf, Kassadin, and Veigar.

Veigar has high bases, but he'll scale into the late game regardless with just Q farm. I'd say he could go bot pretty easily since his support would be able to keep him alive, but because of Veigar's poor early game and focus on farming, so his passive playstyle would really clash with the heavy aggression that bot lane has become recently. Kassadin is melee who can't do much until 6, so while he doesn't necessarily need levels, he DOES need the first 6 to be of use, which is a lot of time bot lane has to deprive him of any and all gold and experience, plus his passive makes him want to face AP's, not AD's. Azir can go bot currently and does pretty well at it against the less mobile ADCs like Twitch, Sivir, Ashe, and even Cait, but ones who are slippery and can quickly move away from his soldiers like Ez, Vayne, and Kalista would shred him in lane by moving away from the soldiers.

It's less of Marksman being better and more of being AP's weren't designed to balanced to be at a duo lane. If we had less bases, more ratios or possibly just more sustained damage AP champs like Azir and Cass, we'd be able to send some AP champs into duos, but otherwise the only other duos will end up being kill lanes, which suck if they go against passive laners.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Like i said, even if they do scale well with levels, they still scale better in bot lane than anyone else. I'm glad they have more options though on PBE.

Zair Umbras1 votes

Yeah, they need to make APs that can go bot to fix that though. APs have always been designed more for solo lane. S1, we had AP's at bot, but people didn't realize how well they did in solo or how easy it was to murder an ADC in lane.

Maybe the next champ might get some sustained magic damage casters, but we've seen that in action in the form of Cass and it's either overbearing or mana-gated. Only way to get around that is to make them a Marksmen, really.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

On point one, Mordekaiser

And on point two, Corki.

Zair Umbras1 votes

Morde yes, though Corki just feels weird on the PBE. Most of us were sorta expecting his passive to affect Trinity, but it doesn't and of course crits help him do magic, but because he's 100% hybrid, it's just not quite the same. If you want to focus on the magic portion, you'll get the Void Staff later on, but because your abilities do magic damage and half your AA's, not counting Trinity, do magic a LW is practically worthless. If they change Trinity to be affected by his passive, then I could say for sure he'd be a solid pick with a Void Staff near end game to stay on par, but as is, he's got a decent early, good mid, horrible late.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

It's intended for it to work with sheen, even though it doesn't. Even with trinity though, he's still over 3/4 magic damage.

Zair Umbras1 votes

Intended to, but not. It's a bit depressing. Late game with the right amount of crit, he does do more magic than physical. I've been using him a lot on the PBE and he can scale decently into late game with IE/ER/Cannon and then Void for your pen. The early is just sorta painful overall though. His late can be almost as strong as the other ADC's, but that early being so weak and the current Trinity not working properly is a bit... You can't get the proper damage spike.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

His early game seems quite strong in my experience, although his mana costs are fairly crippling. I've been doing very well with him both mid and bot. It's almost tempting to get a doran's ring on him.

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