Kindred's Rework is Terrible

AirKingNeo··6 votes·1,405 views

If you waste as much time on this game as me (which you probably have), then you've probably figured out by now that Kindred is horrifically weak.

Much like every thread talking about the state of a champion, that's start off with statistics. I would use league of graphs, but sadly it doesn't show comparison statistics. https://na.op.gg/champion/kindred/statistics/jungle

  • Playrate increased by 0.97%. Now at 3.88%

  • Winrate has dropped by 7.96%. Current winrate is 43.41%.

  • She only has decent matchup winrates against Gragas, Rek'sai, Xin Zhao, and Fiddlesticks.

  • Kindred has the lowest jungle winrate jungle, being right below Rek'Sai.

  • Kindred is the lowest performing jungler according to champion.gg

"But since she was reworked, more people are playing them, thus dragging own her winrate." You could be right, however, I doubt about 1% playrate increase makes a winrate drop more than 5%. "But she was reworked, meaning people who already play her are getting used to it." You might be correct on this, however people already experienced at Kindred would normally be able to adapt to this change seeing as the only huge playstyle changes were her build and the use of her E becoming an execute. Keep in mind, most of the Kindred mains subreddit, r/Kindred, is very unsatisfied with these changes.

With statistics out of the way, Kindred's problems can now be talked about. Her current rework just given to her has solved two minor problems that Kindred didn't care much about (though slightly annoying), but has now given Kindred a whole new amount of problems. Previously, Kindred couldn't build much AD because her had low total AD ratios and she didn't build crit to synergize with it. Also, Kindred couldn't build Critical Strike because that forces her to build a high AD item, like IE, which she didn't work with and would cut out of her current onhit build too much. She's gained range, but that was a balancing point to her high in combat mobility. Regardless, this rework has failed to fix many problems and has created larger ones. New problems are bolded.

  • Marks are still unreliable and required to scale. Plus you still don't get Marks from assisting on jungle monsters, only if you kill it. Furthermore, Marks now have changed value because they work on a threshold rather than each mark be as equal as the other.

  • Kindred's clear speed is very slow because she lacks base damage. This rework changed her total AD ratios to bonus AD ratios, removing a lot of damage from her first few clears.

  • Kindred has low base stats that make it hard to counterjungle and make it easy for her to be counterjungled.

  • Kindred's low base damage makes her ganks inefficient because she also lacks CC as well to kill her target.

  • Kindred's low movement speed makes her ability to move around the jungle very slow. However, they can't add a normal movement speed buff to kindred because she's mobile in fights due to her Q being on a 2 second cooldown while in her W field.

  • Critical strike doesn't fundamentally work on junglers. Crit builds for AD carries consist usually of 3 Crit items (IE + Zeal + Zeal/Essence Reaver), a lifesteal item, and a last whisper item. Being jungle, thus you needing to buy a jungle enchantment, forces you to have only 50% Crit unless you sacrifice the ability to have a lifesteal item or percent armor pen.

  • Critical Strike doesn't work on junglers because you need a large source of gold income to build Crit items, which junglers do not have, and Critical Strike doesn't become powerful until the middle to end of mid game, which is not ideally when a jungler wants to be powerspiking. Basically, Kindred's powercurve became twice as worse.

  • Kindred's damage can now be reduced by Ninja Tabi making her ability to kill tanks, bruisers, and fighters harder.

Kindred is so terrible right now that PETA might as well sue Riot Games for promoting animal abuse. Of course this can be fixed, but I can't just complain and make an argument for why Kindred sucks without offering any kind of improvements.

General Improvements - The ones that should probably be in the game already:

  • Stop Stealing Marks: Kindred now gets marks for assists on killing marked jungle monsters (as long as an allied champion kills them).

  • Not part of the jungle anymore: Kindred can no longer Mark summoned Rift Herald.

  • Trust no one, not even your own team: Kindred can no longer Mark Rift Herald summoned by her own team.

What sets changes can be done to fix Kindred:

  • Revert the rework and work from there. It's pretty clear the idea of a jungler building Critcal Strike doesn't work for the already stated reasons. Maybe make her passive disable Kindred from critically striking, but converts half her Critical Chance into attack speed. They wanted Kindred to not have Crit be a dead stat on her, but I personally think that's very possible while keeping her onhit playstyle.

  • Increase her ability's base damages across the board (normally, old Kindred would have just needed increased total AD ratios and slight base damage increase, this would have solved her lack of AD ratios) and some base stats. She has a really low clear speed currently that drags her down, but her low base armor makes her easily counter jungled by Lee Sin, Rengar, Kha'xiz, and even Elise.

  • Give her ultimate a passive that gives 20/30/40% Critical Chance. This would be a really stupid change, but it's a quick bandaid that I'm pointing out so it won't happen. It would fix her lack of jungling item not having Critical Strike Chance and thus they would build BR -> IE -> Zeal or Warrior -> Zeal Item -> IE.

  • Old Kindred: Nerf thieir passive's onhit to 1% current health damage per mark (from 1.25%) and buff other ascepts of their kit or their base stats. Maybe add random AP ratios to allow Rageblade to be built.

Overall this rework is terrible because it drastically changes the powercurve of Kindred, increases her current problems more so, and solved very little. I believe it looked great on paper, but fails in performance when you consider the scaling of Crit.

11 Comments

Just Blame Jenny2 votes

She was literally just reworked. Of course her numbers aren't quite on point.

(Why am I getting flashbacks to the Zac posts from a couple weeks prior?)

AirKingNeo1 votes

Except I literally explained why the rework doesn't even work with number's buffs.

The meta build is literally skip jungle enchant and rush IE.

Phantasmal Dawn2 votes

Kindred main here: There are several reasons why I feel she doesn't work.

  1. She was originally designed around scaling damage from her marks, while they tried to buff ratios and disribute the scaling to her W, Kindred's build only incorporated maybe 1 or two items that gave attack damage. She was balanced under the assumption that she could obtain the marks she needs to get her damage, as such they could afford to keep her numbers low to keep her balanced.

  2. Her scaling damage was shifted to her W and E. While numerically it's not bad, there are a couple of major issues. Wolf is unreliable, half the time he'll attack a random minion, and the other half a different champ than your target. Not only that, but he gets stuck on minions and terrain, even though it should bypass them. Because you can't guarantee wolf's damage, it makes her W almost useless for anything other than clearing and reducing her Q's cooldown.

  3. She now has too many requirements to make her viable. She needs marks, and she needs expensive items. However, the build that makes her viable requires more gold than a jungler normally accumulates. But you can't put her in as an ADC, because she still needs marks. And chances are that you're going to be counter-jungled anyways.

What you have left over is now the shell of a forgotten champion that is no longer viable as a jungler, nor as an ADC.

My Suggestions/options:

  1. Revert the rework, her scaling damage was core to her identity as a champion and was the only thing that actually made her viable.
  2. Buff her damage numbers and at the very least return the scaling damage on her Q.
  3. Return the scaling damage on her autos. Maybe after the initial 75 range increase at 4 marks she then begins to stack her percent hp damage again.
  4. Revert the rework and buff her as an apology.
  5. Revert the rework.
l Joe Rogan l1 votes

Reverting the rework is a bad idea. They always rework the jungle for the next season, and since every single jungler's base stats are getting looked at for the upcoming Runes Reforged, I certainly doubt they will make significant changes to Kindred before the next season. Maybe some flat buffs just to bring up their winrate. I think we just have to play the waiting game with Kindred now, until the next season.

AirKingNeo1 votes

So rework champion who's at good winrate just to kill them for no reason?

That makes no sense.

Phantasmal Dawn1 votes

Riot thought they were improving her and making her viable again because she wasn't seen in competitive and had a low pick rate. In reality though, she was a fine champion, and entirely skill based.

I think the initial 75 range increase with her marks is fine but I'd like to see her scaling damage on autos and Q return, even if at lowered numbers. She has plenty of attack speed, just no freaking damage to use with it.

AzureKindred1 votes

They're mechanically better now, with more potential if played well even with less marks. They increased the skill cap. However, I do think they need some sort of general number buffs. Even if it's just flat stat increases or base damage on their abilities.

I dont think they should be reverted. I like all their abilities more now, and the marks feel less essential for maintaining damage.

The biggest problem with kindred is just how the game works. Most of the time, enemy junglers can easily kill adcs, and mid laners too. So being an ADC without a tower and a support to hide behind, with junglers and mid laners that can one shot you.... yeah, that's it. Read that again. An ADC that has no support, or towers to hide behind.

  • Kindred main, one of the highest champions masteries on kindred in NA (top 15)
AirKingNeo2 votes

I just gave an explation why Crit doesn't work on a jungler. It should be reverted, but Riot won't listen. Also almost every Kindred main I know hates the change.

No, Marks are still essential.

AzureKindred1 votes

I read your explanation, but I literally play nothing but kindred back to back, and crits seem fine. Maybe they could just increase the crit scaling on E? The current E with even a single crit chance item is perfectly strong. If you have IE + a zeal item, it's extremely effective to use Kindred's E as an execute on Baron and Drakes, because it deals -as much as SMITE to them- if it crits. Test it, you can always secure drakes against other junglers if you use it with smite at the exact same time. I dont think I want to lose that power just because it requires you to buy a second item?

No, marks are not essential. They make things easier, but I've carried with just 4.

Again, I do think it needs a buff still though.

Phantasmal Dawn1 votes

She's fine for fighting camps and epic monsters, but trying to fight another champ other than reksai or skarner is literally suicide. Without her scaling damage, she does literally nothing to most tanks, and she's 100% reliant on marks and items for any damage. Before, I could have 4 marks and consider myself in a fine position, even if behind.

Instead of marks increasing range on autoattacks, how about: Passive (auto attack buffs): 0-3 marks: no AA bonus 4 marks: 75 bonus range 5+ marks: Each mark after the initial 4 adds X percent HP damage, even if a lower amount than pre-rework.

Q: Each stack of Mark of Kindred increases attack speed by 5% Each Stack of Mark of Kindred increases Dance of Arrows (Q) damage by 3 (was 5 pre-rework)

W: Adjustments to targeting -Wolf can freely pass over terrain -The player can now direct wolf to attack a specific target -Wolf prioritizes the champion Lamb is attacking -Wolf will prioritize champions in range over monsters and minions

Part of the major issue with the rework is how they shifted all her scaling damage to her W and E. From my experience, W was almost useless as a source of damage against champions. Wolf would always attack a random target (even if you're already attacking a champion), or just get stuck on terrain, not move from its spawn, etc. Kindred's W is not a reliable source of damage, which is a major issue when it's being calculated as a reliable source for balancing. Unless they fix wolf's bugs and let you set him to pursue a target, then don't count on it. The majority of Kindred's damage came from auto attacks and her Q, with the final burst on her E, which were reliable.

Phantasmal Dawn1 votes

Also a Kindred main.

I've always found wolf to be a very unreliable source of damage, and I would only rely on the W for the Q cooldown, with most of the damage he dealt being just a bonus. Half the time wolf will attack a random minion or jungle camp, even if you're already attacking a champion when you summon him. Or, he'll attack an entirely different champion, or just get stuck on freaking terrain for 8 seconds.

I think that after the initial 75 range increase, her marks should return to giving scaling damage, even if at a lower percentage than before. She was always balanced around her marks, and most builds were attack speed, minor crit chance, maybe some armor pen, and maybe a frozen mallet.

Now I find that while she has attack speed, she lacks any significant damage, especially in an amount that will let you reliably duel another champion. Their entire point with the rework was to give her a stronger early game and the ability to duel champs when invading early, to help her snowball, but it seems to have backfired and made her entirely mid and late game. I've found that the only junglers I find to be free food are Rek'sai and Skarner, and I've seen those two champs maybe eight times total in the past six months.

That's my honest opinion on it. In the current meta, she's simply not viable anymore, and with the removal of the scaling percent damage on her auto-attacks, not to mention her Q's damage only scaling with bonus AD, it makes it even harder to fight any champion in the game.

And before you ask or look it up: I'd evaluate my actual rank at somewhere between Bronze 1 and Gold 4, based off of my performance last year. Pre-rework I had a 69% win rate on Kindred in ranked, and a 64% win rate in norms. Since her release, Kindred has been my favorite champion, and this rework has not been a pleasant for our duo. Hopefully RIOT will take our concerns and suggestions into account and tweak her a bit.

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