The LoL meta, compared to other MOBAs, is so stale.

BeatinWarDrumz·Oct 10, 2015·11 votes·1,771 views

You NEED a ranged, physical damage dps dealer for late game.

Because they scale off of gold, not levels, they will get a support

That leaves you with two lanes and three roles that need gold, so you put either a devourer jungler or a jungler that doesnt need as much gold in the jungle because it gives less gold.

Top and mid metas are always cool because there is a lot of diversity, but IMO it's said that jungle, adc, and support are necessary 100% of games. This is why I actually LIKED the mordekaiser rework, because it spiced up bot lane.

32 Comments

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20154 votes

honestly, the meta in dota is even less flexible, or atleast was last worlds when i watched it. Always 1hard supp(savelane/roaming), 1 farming supp(jungle/roam), 1 hard carry(savelane), 1 carry(mid), offlaner(hardlane) now what makes it less flexible is that save and offlane are hard set by map-layout, so no laneswaps, else, the role distrbtion is just like lol, with sup/hardsup gettin FAR less resources than their counterparts in lol. the only thing more free is the choice off carrys, as towers are so meaningless later on that you don't need a ranged champ to siege them down, so melee carrys are common in the hard carry position.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7fO5s5kA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-10-10T13:01:42.462+0000)

honestly, the meta in dota is even less flexible, or atleast was last worlds when i watched it. Always 1hard supp(savelane/roaming), 1 supp(jungle), 1 hard carry(savelane), 1 carry(mid), offlaner(offlane) now what makes it less flexible is that save and offlane are hard set by map-layout, so no laneswaps, else, the role distrbtion is just like lol, with sup/hardsup gettin FAR less resources than their counterparts in lol. the only thing more free is the choice off carrys, as towers are so meaningless later on that you don't need a ranged champ to siege them down, so melee carrys are common in the hard carry position.

what are you talking about? didn't you see the secret team playing techies?

techies planting mines everywhere tusk playing hard lane storm spirit playing an early game ganker in the mid lane bloodseeker playing a carry in the safe lane with dazzle supporting him

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20153 votes

how dose that counter my argument? you have stormspirit as soft carry mid(good early, decent late), Bloodseeker as hard carry safe lane with dazzle as hard support, farming up for a strong late, techies beeing support, stacking up camps for the carrys to farm while trying to get some mapcontroll, tusk beeing offlane, not needing much farm to do his job, 100% meta conform dota setup

If we translate that to lol, we harcarry = adc, softcarry = mid, offlane = top, Hard support = support, farming Supp = jungle. While dota has somewhat more diversity on the hardcarry spot, most over positions are rather limited, supp and farming sup have very little gold, so bit like S2 jungle in lol, offlane is always a forced by design laneswap, so low gold here aswell, softcarry(mid) usually gets alot gold, but needs to jave a good early to hold the tower and farm, which menas it's usually a pick that doesn't scale as well with the gold it gets compared to hardcarry. Inly the hardcarry can pick a scaleing hero and savely farm up the needed gold. So dota, we have 1.5 carrys, maybe 2at max vs up to 3, 4 if you count devourer in lol, so how is that more diverse in the compositions you can built?

In average, hardcarrys had ~5times the gold off supps, and ~3-4times the gold off the offlane, with softcarrys beeing a bit higher early and falling a bit behind later...and i can't recall a single game with a really differnt gold distribution las worlds...

KONO RUBICK DAOct 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7fO5s5kA,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2015-10-10T14:03:28.787+0000)

how dose that counter my argument? you have stormspirit as soft carry mid(good early, decent late), Bloodseeker as hard carry safe lane with dazzle as hard support, farming up for a strong late, techies beeing support, stacking up camps for the carrys to farm while trying to get some mapcontroll, tusk beeing offlane, not needing much farm to do his job, 100% meta conform dota setup

If we translate that to lol, we harcarry = adc, softcarry = mid, offlane = top, Hard support = support, farming Supp = jungle. While dota has somewhat more diversity on the hardcarry spot, most over positions are rather limited, supp and farming sup have very little gold, so bit like S2 jungle in lol, offlane is always a forced by design laneswap, so low gold here aswell, softcarry(mid) usually gets alot gold, but needs to jave a good early to hold the tower and farm, which menas it's usually a pick that doesn't scale as well with the gold it gets compared to hardcarry. Inly the hardcarry can pick a scaleing hero and savely farm up the needed gold. So dota, we have 1.5 carrys, maybe 2at max vs up to 3, 4 if you count devourer in lol, so how is that more diverse in the compositions you can built?

In average, hardcarrys had ~5times the gold off supps, and ~3-4times the gold off the offlane, with softcarrys beeing a bit higher early and falling a bit behind later...and i can't recall a single game with a really differnt gold distribution las worlds...

so, is zeus a soft carry? are you kidding me? he was a must pick mid and he isn't a soft carry

same for leschrac/lina/necrophos

AerostaticusDec 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7fO5s5kA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-10-10T13:01:42.462+0000)

honestly, the meta in dota is even less flexible, or atleast was last worlds when i watched it. Always 1hard supp(savelane/roaming), 1 farming supp(jungle/roam), 1 hard carry(savelane), 1 carry(mid), offlaner(hardlane) now what makes it less flexible is that save and offlane are hard set by map-layout, so no laneswaps, else, the role distrbtion is just like lol, with sup/hardsup gettin FAR less resources than their counterparts in lol. the only thing more free is the choice off carrys, as towers are so meaningless later on that you don't need a ranged champ to siege them down, so melee carrys are common in the hard carry position.

:D So much bs in a single comment

ADepressedLeonaOct 10, 20153 votes

Support will always be a thing regardless of if their is an ADC or not.

It's simply how the game is set up, with only 4 sources of gold income (Top, Mid, Jungle, Bot) Someone will have to give up farm to make the most out of all of it, and supports just happen to be the ones who can successfully do that.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowy Poro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7fO5s5kA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-10T11:32:56.404+0000)

Support will always be a thing regardless of if their is an ADC or not.

It's simply how the game is set up, with only 4 sources of gold income (Top, Mid, Jungle, Bot) Someone will have to give up farm to make the most out of all of it, and supports just happen to be the ones who can successfully do that.

support isn't a problem, in every moba there is a support dota 2 or hon. we have different supports while we have one kind of carry

DrNovaOct 11, 20151 votes

Not true. Mid and often top both carry as much or more then ADC these days.

franticFurballOct 10, 20152 votes

You NEED a ranged, physical damage dps dealer for late game.

Sure, that's why botlane Mordekaiser is almost a 100% ban :D

Cowgirl EdOct 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Sure, that's why botlane is almost a 100% ban :D

or maybe because he's a bunch of stats put together with no sense? but i agree with op, let's hope that the marksman rework (lol) will fix some of these issues

KONO RUBICK DAOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sure, that's why botlane is almost a 100% ban :D

morde was specially designed to go bot, if you think a bit instead of sleeping you can see that he has 1000 damage on his Q while building tank, bonus xp, shield to counter poke,poke, manaless sustain, dragon to siege against ranged

DrNovaOct 11, 20151 votes

Morde was given a bunch of unfun/unfair gimmicks just to force him into not.

Big LincolnOct 10, 20151 votes

that's why the ADC usually goes into a different lane for late game

and why his team usually gets destroyed late game if they don't have one

ShonjlOct 10, 20152 votes

You don't need a ranged adc at all. I have seen more than several times seeing Yasuo go bot, Yi go bot, Morde go bot, Xin go bot, hell even Tryn bot and they can do it just as well. Sure you are safer as ranged because....ranged but it isn't mandatory. You DO need an ADC but it doesn't have to be ranged.

Jungler mainly comes down to CC or burst. They don't rely on gold since their strength comes from what was said. Amumu or Sejauni just go in and ult and it either succeeds or doesn't. Diana and devourer champs like WW or Yi go in and blow you up before you have much a chance to react. Then there is some that are a mix.

Supports aren't even entirely needed either to be honest, that why champs like Annie and Morg and Brand are seeing bot a lot recently. It is no longer a support but another damage dealer and its now a kill lane. When I go sup Morg I don't really sup much. I am mostly trying to murder the enemy like my adc is, I dont farm but I am making every attempt to get the kill myself. But if anything, ADC just needs a 2nd body down there since there is always 2 people down there and 2v1 are never fun.

Top turning into a tank lane is mainly since it isn't near dragon so it requires the least attention, and tanks or bruisers are bulky enough that they don't need too much help if they play smart.

I wouldn't say the meta is stale so much as its smart. It makes sense to throw a tanky person top since its the furthest away from dragon which is a major objective in the beginning of the game, getting a dragon or 2 early game can be what wins or loses some games. The ADC being bot and right next to dragon makes sense since they are a lot of damage and can help get the dragon vastly quicker. Mid lane works well with mages and assassins since assassins are mobile and can roam easier since it takes them little time to get top or bot from mid, and mages usually have some form or long range spells.

darapier17Oct 10, 20151 votes

one time i supported yi bot and he kicked ass. Same with pre-rework gangplank

LankPantsOct 10, 20152 votes

a jungler that doesnt need as much gold

That is a wide range of junglers. LeeSin and Elise don't require much gold as they're early game weighted. Nautilus and Gragas don't require much gold as their kits give a lot of innate durability. Chogath and Nunu don't require much gold as they focus more on objective control.

There are also junglers who don't use devourer and scale well off gold. Sejuani , Amumu , Olaf , , Skarner , Khazix ect.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20152 votes

Strangly enough, we played yesterday 3 games without adc, and won them...but only faceing an enemie adc 1 time...really was a strange night. But you know what? That were 3 off the most fun matches i ever had recently.

Angry MonsterOct 10, 20151 votes

everything about mord is game breaking and does not solve anything. How you like the rework is a mystery

Exp advantage. You can not take a mage against him (in duo) cause they scale with levels and you cant fight fairly in lane.

Solves tower taking problem with dragon...... again a mord only solution. Also makes it after mord takes a drag tier one towers are going to go down no matter what

both of these are way to gimmicky and does nothing to solve a bot lane issue. Hell once you force ADCs out of the bot-lane you are going to have to deal with the fact that ADCs can not handle 1v1 mages. 0 itemization paths to allow effective goal building and having a way to survive.

Riot like you are not thinking things through and are saying oooohhh pretty without thinking things through.

IcyPepperOct 10, 20151 votes

Top and mid metas are always cool because there is a lot of diversity,

Mage or assassin mid.

I... don't really see bruiser or tanks being all that popular in mid lane, except for the niche pick (people pick bruisers on occasion to counter assassins). You got two main classes dominating the midlane, which is on par with your complaint about the jungle being either devourer or someone who doesn't need as much gold.

SleepyLionCubOct 10, 20151 votes

I think its just simpler, which makes it more popular.

Earl EulrichOct 10, 20152 votes

it´s not, it´s by far the most strategical moba on high-lvl 5v5. It´s just easier to grasp the basics and start to play compared to sth. like Dota. basically easy to learn, hard to master at it´s best.

Sire HippingtonOct 10, 20151 votes

wouldn't say 'at it's best', It may be easier to learn than some other mobas, but there is a lot room to improve the easy to learn part.

MalzaharAnyLaneOct 10, 20151 votes

Yep

The forced move toward skillshots is making it worse rather than better.

HentRexOct 10, 20151 votes

I always felt that Yasuo was Riot's first attempt at having a melee adc bot return.

DrNovaOct 11, 20151 votes

Its legit but no one uses it.

Silents429Oct 10, 20151 votes

You NEED a ranged, physical damage dps dealer for late game.

No you don't. This is brought up time and time again.

ShatteredSkysOct 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No you don't. This is brought up time and time again.

You don't need an adc for late game but you generally need one for sieging and objective control. It is really hard to take turrets during the late game without an adc.

Silents429Oct 10, 20151 votes

Anyone building attack speed can wreck turrets easily, we don't need a marksmen for it.

ShatteredSkysOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Anyone building attack speed can wreck turrets easily, we don't need a marksmen for it.

For the most part only adcs rely on as, you can't fit as onto an apc without screwing up your build. And it has to be ranged because it's simply to dangerous to walk up the turret. For an example: yes master yi, tryndamere, and jax can demolish turrets but if they get too close they'll get locked down and killed. If you brought a caitlyn or a trist than it would be much more safer to bring down the turret.

Silents429Oct 10, 20151 votes

You could also not be stupid and attack turrets when they have champions nearby capable of locking you down?

They can easily do it to the squishy vulnerable ADC attacking the turret too.

ShatteredSkysOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You could also not be stupid and attack turrets when they have champions nearby capable of locking you down?

They can easily do it to the squishy vulnerable ADC attacking the turret too.

Those opportunities are very hard to find during the late game it's often hard enough to find opportunities with a ranged adc let a lone a melee adc.

Silents429Oct 11, 20151 votes

No they are not, you take objectives at opportune moments. These do not include forcing objectives when the enemy is easily able to stop you.

You take objectives when no one can stop you, this includes split pushing or winning a team fight and pushing a lane out.