What do we think of adding a final hit to Garen's E?

OyddAWqJ5r·Jul 2, 2017·13 votes·925 views

Like an arced attack in target direction at the end of it that deals more damage the longer E was cast for?

This way there's a tiny bit more skill involved (landing the final hit) as well as counterplay (dodge the final hit). Ofc take power from somewhere else to compensate for it.

Thoughts?

Edit: Alright so the first 2 replies are "Garen doesn't need more damage".

Ofc take power from somewhere else to compensate for it.

Let's put on those reading glasses people.

40 Comments

ParoeJul 2, 20175 votes

@thread Where would you take that power away from though? I think the ultimate - get rid of the villain mechanic entirely and give garen some health scaling on his W and R.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20178 votes

Honestly yeah delete the villain mechanic entirely, frees up so much power for much less gimmicky nuanced bs.

Need Gold 4 TentJul 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:34:15.808+0000)

Honestly yeah delete the villain mechanic entirely, frees up so much power for much less gimmicky nuanced bs.

not that that thing helps anyway. % hp damage on a squishy adc is still meh, and they don't build much armor either so it being true damage is also meh, since his entire purpose is to run into their team to mow down 1 squishy target. Unless, the villain mechanic actually grants him extra mobility to get to only the villain perhaps

C9 Scott Free Jul 2, 20173 votes

{quoted}

@thread Where would you take that power away from though? I think the ultimate - get rid of the villain mechanic entirely and give garen some health scaling on his W and R.

TBH villain mechanic is one of my least favorite things in League

ParoeJul 2, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 Feel The Bern,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:34:55.075+0000)

TBH villain mechanic is one of my least favorite things in League

Its really bad. Theres nothing worse than doing well and suddenly 1000 true damage nuke. If riot really wanted garen to have a true damage execute he should just do it from the start and have a passive on it thats reminiscent of darius bleed. IE "Garens abilities and basic attacks add a stack of demacian orbital justice canon coordinates. Each stack increases the base damage of demacian orbital justice canon by 50/75/100+3% of garens maximum health

C9 Scott Free Jul 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Its really bad. Theres nothing worse than doing well and suddenly 1000 true damage nuke. If riot really wanted garen to have a true damage execute he should just do it from the start and have a passive on it thats reminiscent of darius bleed. IE "Garens abilities and basic attacks add a stack of demacian orbital justice canon coordinates. Each stack increases the base damage of demacian orbital justice canon by 50/75/100+3% of garens maximum health

I legit feel like the mechanic exist to make the "REALLY BAD players" AKA newbs realize they are supposed to focus fed people. But as a balance mechanic it's pretty dumb. "Oh you're doing well, take some bonus damage boiiiiiiii!!!!!"

Sire HippingtonJul 2, 20171 votes

Yea, focus that fed tank...

C9 Scott Free Jul 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00040001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T22:43:50.824+0000)

Yea, focus that fed tank...

Because walking past a garen is actually a thing?

LadyRenlyJul 2, 20172 votes

just what garen needs, more damage xd

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

More telegraphed damage akin to other Juggernauts as opposed to his current "stand near him to take damage" kit.

Big LincolnJul 2, 20173 votes

garen already telegraphs by running at you desu

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20172 votes

True enough but I think his entire design of his weakness being when he's not on top of you is pretty bad design and the reason he's so binary.

Darius has the same "kiteable" weakness and yet still has Q and E to play around once he's in your face. Garen will just spin and point click Q/R. He needs more to play around.

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:33:36.619+0000)

He needs more to play around.

you play around him before he is on top of you, not afterwards.

people seem to mistake the ability to kite juggernauts with the ability to easily escape them. when they are on top of you, you alrady misplayed.

youre not supposed to be able to escape them without burning flash or some serious help of your team anymore at that point.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

Yet you can still outplay Yorick, Illaoi and Darius at close range. You can't outplay Garen. Your only option is to outstat him at that point (which most of the time you can).

Yorick - Dodge E, Outplay W Darius - Dodge outer Q (avoids 2 marks) Illaoi - dodge tentacles and E Garen - (this is the problem)

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:41:49.936+0000)

Yet you can still outplay Yorick, Illaoi and Darius at close range. You can't outplay Garen. Your only option is to outstat him at that point (which most of the time you can).

darius, illaoi and yorick on the other hand have better abilities available to get to their opponents in the first place. darius can outplay flash or dashes with his hook even to keep enemies in range.

it depends on the champion youre playing.

many champions can kite him around and outplay him at close range by making use of his cooldown windows.

some champions can interrupt his q animation, since the ability is so ridiculously slow. which i guess is ok for the early lane phase when you cant always avoid getting close to him when you want to cs, but completely uncalled for by midgame when the game is about skirmishes and rotations around the map.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

Darius and Illaoi with their 0 movement speed bonuses have a better time catching up to enemies than Garen with Q... hmmm...

Make use of his cooldown windows? Ha. You mean eat his entire combo but proceed to ignore the damage dealt while just attack him back and then sticking to him once his E has ended and his abilities are still on their fairly large cooldowns.

So like I said, once he catches you you either statstick him or don't. There's 0 room for outplaying outside of simply jumping away. There's a reason Garen is kept weak and this is it.

As for interrupting his Q that's a terrible interaction that shouldn't exist in the first place and shouldn't even be mentioned as counterplay. The only reason it still exists is because they don't want to buff Garen in any way even one so minor so long as his kit remains this one-dimensional.

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T04:08:33.828+0000)

Darius and Illaoi with their 0 movement speed bonuses have a better time catching up to enemies than Garen with Q... hmmm...

illaoi has her e to catch out enemies she has trouble getting in range of. darius has his pull to either stick or to get enemies in range. hes less mobile than garen yea, but hes also more of a serious aoe threat.

Make use of his cooldown windows? Ha. You mean eat his entire combo but proceed to ignore the damage dealt while just attack him back > and then sticking to him once his E has ended and his abilities are still on their fairly large cooldowns.

no, i mean throw some slow at him while hes almost in melee range, walk out of hs spin before it deals any real damage, then trade back at him. like the way you play against garen is very matchup specific, but a lot of champions have ways to fight him in melee not just by outstating him.

So like I said, once he catches you you either statstick him or don't. There's 0 room for outplaying outside of simply jumping away.

youre not supposed to win easily when he already caught you. its actually supposed to be bloody hard and at least cost you a summoner, unless youre another bruiser. your goal as mage,m marksman, or squishy assassin is to not let him get into a benficial position in the first place.

As for interrupting his Q that's a terrible interaction that shouldn't exist in the first place and shouldn't even be mentioned as counterplay. The only reason it still exists is because they don't want to buff Garen in any way even one so minor so long as his kit remains this one dimensional.

im mentioning it, because it is there and it is being used.

if they didnt want to buff him they wouldnt do it, but he is being buffed.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T04:59:25.441+0000)

youre not supposed to win easily when he already caught you. its actually supposed to be bloody hard and at least cost you a summoner, unless youre another bruiser. your goal as mage,m marksman, or squishy assassin is to not let him get into a benficial position in the first place.

Never said easily. Akin to Darius, Illaoi and Yorick in their possibility to outplay them. Garen's criteria for winning fights should line up more evenly with his fellow Juggernauts and not just be "if I'm in range I win if not I lose".

That's what's put him into his current state of "if I'm in range I might win?".

Big LincolnJul 2, 20171 votes

different champions

garen has 0 desire to stay in fights like Darius, he wants to get in, dump his combo and walk away while he cycles his CDs, unlike Darius he doesn't do well in extended fights because he has no sustain in combat

also important to note that garen is strictly melee range so making him have a hard time getting to you and then having unreliable damage means he's need either more utility to keep you in place or a hell of a lot more damage potential

C9 Scott Free Jul 2, 20172 votes

Except for "in front of him" does that mean where his model is facing? Because if so that is not adding counterplay. Also, Garen doesn't need more damage.

IcyPepperJul 2, 20172 votes

Also, Garen doesn't need more damage.

Ofc take power from somewhere else to compensate for it.

OP is suggesting a change, not a buff.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

Target direction. Prolly just take away some damage from the other spins.

Not intended to just be +more damage with 0 balance consideration. Dunno why I gotta spell that out tbh.

C9 Scott Free Jul 2, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:25:55.432+0000)

Target direction. Prolly just take away some damage from the other spins.

Not intended to just be +more damage with 0 balance consideration. Dunno why I gotta spell that out tbh.

Because it's the gameplay board and people have some of the worst ideas here.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

True

AmetDeCryptJul 2, 20172 votes

I wouldn't be opposed. the argument for theme in his current kit doesn't even really match up. he's just a dude who spins one person down and then is useless the rest of the fight.

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20171 votes

id say landing an entire spin on his opponent should empower his next q against the target.

but thats kinda what the armor shred does already.

before they add anything else, i want them to make decisive strikes animation speed scale up with his base attack speed, so the ability isnt so ridiculously clunky and can be used as a proper auto attack reset around midgame to lategame.

id really like to be able to fight champions like renekton and riven without them just constantly cancelling my q animation with their instant cc.

ParoeJul 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:31:38.136+0000)

id say landing an entire spin on his opponent should empower his next q against the target.

but thats kinda what the armor shred does already.

before they add anything else, i want them to make decisive strikes animation speed scale up with his base attack speed, so the ability isnt so ridiculously clunky and can be used as a proper auto attack reset around midgame to lategame.

^ Yes. Making his Q scale with attack speed would be really neat.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

One of my main concerns is that Q's animation makes him visible from bush before he lands the attack. And with the huge start lag it's easy as hell to instant CC even though he should've had the stealthed hit.

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-07-02T03:35:18.455+0000)

One of my main concerns is that Q's animation makes him visible from bush before he lands the attack. And with the huge start lag it's easy as hell to instant CC even though he should've had the stealthed hit.

well yea. its one of the shittiest auto attack resets in the game. pretty much on par with wukongs q.

the way i see it, they have two options here.

a) either make the animation speed scale up like i said so at lvl 18 its as fast as his pre VU q (his auto attack + q + auto attack combo used to be fast enough to take out newly planted wards before they went invisible). this buff would mostly affect higher levels of play, where animation cancels are more important to maximize the dps of your character.

b) or they keep it this slow, but make his q follow dashes and other mobility spells, similar to Warwick q if theyre cast after the animation already started. this would allow garen players to even time their q in ways where they could follow enemy flashes or mobility spells over walls and pull off similar stunts.

KyojiTakajoJul 2, 20171 votes

Wait what's wrong with Wukong Q lol

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Wait what's wrong with Wukong Q lol

i havent played him in quite a while, so i dont know if its still as slow. i just remember that i used to have problems with it, because i kept canelling the animation too early due to how slow the swing of the staff was.

maybe his q works differently now, or it always scaled with attack speed and i just forgot.

Big LincolnJul 2, 20171 votes

just have it work like Lucian Q where the animation speeds up with levels

Critmaster GarenJul 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=0003000100000001,timestamp=2017-07-02T07:14:26.101+0000)

just have it work like Lucian Q where the animation speeds up with levels

thats basically the same effect.

base attack speed scales up with level and to my knowledge, there is no way to increase it otherwise.

unless you mean with rank of the ability. that wont work, since q maxing in lane is already a good choice.

fuffychanJul 2, 20171 votes

Because Garen needs MORE damage. He already reduces everyones armor to 0 with just 1 item.

5000000000000000Jul 2, 20171 votes

Isn't his issue more about getting to the target? I feel like this doesn't really fix his issues much. I guess it could be a useful way to raise Garen's skill cap, but doesn't seem particularly necessary.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

By fixing core gameplay issues we can then target the less prominent issues such as his mobility that was drastically reduced due to his lack of overall interaction post-reaching a target.

They could always revert the MS changes to "fix" that issue but they purposely invoked those changes because Garen doesn't really have much counterplay for half the cast once he reaches his target.

VoraciousXJul 2, 20171 votes

K how about take the damage from his E and add it onto the final hit. He doesn't need more damage, but his spin is so impossible to get away from if he Qs you and deals enough damage to allow him to just ult you right then and there if you're not a tank. So take damage away from his E spin and put it on the final hit and there you can have your final hit on E, lol. Honestly this could fix part of his whole issue with "getting to people" because then he'd have more range on his main ability with most of the damage being backloaded onto the skillshot aspect. Although I feel like if he Qs you you're still not gonna be able to dodge it. I've always felt like they put too much power into his Q with the silence. The silence GUARANTEES his combo. Remove the silence and give him something else to compensate. Heck make the Q slow instead and then give him power where he needs it. I thought they tried getting rid of silences anyways.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 2, 20171 votes

Exactly it's another issue. I think it's fine with the proposed E thing so long as the Q silence doesn't last the full duration of the spin, meaning Garen either has to use it early and sacrifice potential damage or save it til the full duration when they are not silenced and risk them dodging it.

All the more reason adding a final hit just seems so intuitive.

VoraciousXJul 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7UzNAFaV,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-07-02T23:49:41.907+0000)

Exactly it's another issue. I think it's fine with the proposed E thing so long as the Q silence doesn't last the full duration of the spin, meaning Garen either has to use it early and sacrifice potential damage or save it til the full duration when they are not silenced and risk them dodging it.

All the more reason adding a final hit just seems so intuitive.

It'd be alright if Garen was mainly using the skillshot portiion of the E to deal damage, but if he Q>E's you, he's likely gonna hit you with the skillshot proposed regardless if the silence ends early or not cuz he'll be in your face. I would say make it where it cancels the skillshot portion if he's CCed during it but that'd just make him really weak. His silence is honestly his biggest problem, if he didn't have that he could be given more power elsewhere. Silences have been proven to be really bad for the game(especially targeted ones). At least in Riot's eyes, I mean look at all the silences that were removed. LB lost a silence, Talon did, Malzahar didn't because it was a skillshot. The value of his silence is likely taking up a lot of his power, not to mention it's pretty frustrating to fight against.