Remove Zoe from the game until you can come up with a better kit for her.

Bouncemaster Zac·Jan 31, 2018·16 votes·3,153 views

There are plenty of Champions I've hated playing against in my years playing League (coughcough) but it's almost always been either a numbers game that could be tweaked with buffs/nerfs, or a single problematic spell in an otherwise fine kit ( ). Zoe, however, is the first time I've ever felt a Champion should've never been released at all. Her entire kit, every last part of it, is the epitome of 'bad design choices' and lack of fore-planning. Lane-length oneshots with a single spell, the most absolute hardcore RNG I've ever seen, rewarded for MISSING her abilities, the ability to cover all her own weaknesses with ease, and a complete lack of cooldowns or mana costs. A kit this inherently toxic and unbalanceable should have never been released into a competitive game environment, and it should be removed from that environment until properly addressed.

21 Comments

Dope SoloJan 31, 20186 votes

One-shot is fundamentally shitty game design.

ResterJan 31, 20185 votes

You can downvote me for speaking the truth but everyone bitched about Yasuo saying he's constantly broken and he actually needed buffs. They're not gonna remove Zoe and you're just gonna have to deal with it. I can give you all sorts of generic crap that everyone has said to deal with her but it seems you're just set on deleting champions you don't like instead of banning them.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 31, 20187 votes

{quoted}

You can downvote me for speaking the truth but everyone bitched about Yasuo saying he's constantly broken and he actually needed buffs. They're not gonna remove Zoe and you're just gonna have to deal with it. I can give you all sorts of generic crap that everyone has said to deal with her but it seems you're just set on deleting champions you don't like instead of banning them.

You're not speaking the truth. I am. It isn't like Yasuo who is simply frustrating but ultimately balanceable. Zoe's kit, from the ground up, is antithetical to a competitive gaming environment. No amount of numbers tweaks, buffs, nerfs, whatever will fix her. Her kit needs changed and she never should've been released the way she is. This isn't an opinion, it is an objective, observable, provable fact.

Also, I'm not "dead set on deleting champions" and it's not "you don't know how to play against her." Zoe is the only Champion I've felt should be removed entirely in the 5 years I've been playing; and it's because there is no right way to play against her because she objectively has no real outplay or counter potential because whatever weakness one part of her kit may have is covered by another part. Nothing about her is exploitable.

Taliyah RocksJan 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Mf5KdX9,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-01-31T12:28:18.863+0000)

You're not speaking the truth. I am.

How could you be speaking the truth when i thoroughly disagree with everything you said. She has SO MANY counters it's sad. She's a one-trick pony and if you deny her that she's useless. So many items and champions that can counter her.

I put her in the same category as Blitz. Sure a Blitz can turn a game with a good hook, and if he lands multiple hooks he can help snowball a team. But deny him that and he's useless.

I'm just sick of seeing people complain about stuff, but then they don't do sh*t to counter said stuff. "Oh no i'm a low mobility mage and i keep getting hit by E and one-shot by Zoe!!11one1!!" Yet you don't see Banshee's Veil in their items.

Like... really... common sense is enough to see her counters, i'm not even gonna list all the champs and items that can abuse her.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 31, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Mf5KdX9,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T15:51:48.439+0000)

How could you be speaking the truth when i thoroughly disagree with everything you said. She has SO MANY counters it's sad. She's a one-trick pony and if you deny her that she's useless. So many items and champions that can counter her.

You can disagree with the truth. It's called being wrong.

I put her in the same category as Blitz. Sure a Blitz can turn a game with a good hook, and if he lands multiple hooks he can help snowball a team. But deny him that and he's useless.

Wrong. Blitz only has one toxic ability but is otherwise fine. All 4 of Zoe's abilities plus her passive have some inherent issue or another. Deny her one thing and she'll just clap you with another.

I'm just sick of seeing people complain about stuff, but then they don't do sh*t to counter said stuff. "Oh no i'm a low mobility mage and i keep getting hit by E and one-shot by Zoe!!11one1!!" Yet you don't see Banshee's Veil in their items.

You're gonna keep seeing this stuff because for once, it isn't just current popular opinion, it's a fact. Also, lmao, "just build the spellshield with a 45s cooldown that resets every time you get hit to counter the 0 cooldown oneshots!"

Like... really... common sense is enough to see her counters, i'm not even gonna list all the champs and items that can abuse her.

She doesn't have counters. She can easily play around her own 'weaknesses' because every part of her kit covers it's own gaps.

Taliyah RocksJan 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Mf5KdX9,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T16:38:11.112+0000)

You can disagree with the truth. It's called being wrong.

Wrong. Blitz only has one toxic ability but is otherwise fine. All 4 of Zoe's abilities plus her passive have some inherent issue or another. Deny her one thing and she'll just clap you with another.

You're gonna keep seeing this stuff because for once, it isn't just current popular opinion, it's a fact. Also, lmao, "just build the spellshield with a 45s cooldown that resets every time you get hit to counter the 0 cooldown oneshots!"

She doesn't have counters. She can easily play around her own 'weaknesses' because every part of her kit covers it's own gaps.

lol.... just... lol

Sorry but i won't argue with you further. You see problems where i see none. I even give you solutions and you don't care. K mate, you can bask in your ignorance all you want, i'm done.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 31, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Mf5KdX9,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-31T17:28:14.440+0000)

lol.... just... lol

Sorry but i won't argue with you further. You see problems where i see none. I even give you solutions and you don't care. K mate, you can bask in your ignorance all you want, i'm done.

You didn't give solutions. You've just been condescending. You were done before you started because you had no intention of being constructive. Bye.

ResterJan 31, 20184 votes

You'll grow out of it just like everyone that hates Yasuo.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 31, 20186 votes

{quoted}

You'll grow out of it just like everyone that hates Yasuo.

Grow out of Zoe having an objectively broken kit? No. Not how that works.

SnyperWulffJan 31, 20181 votes

Then quit playing, because she's not getting removed from the game.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 31, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Then quit playing, because she's not getting removed from the game.

I'm getting close to, because Riot's quality levels have been steadily dropping for 2 seasons straight.

Rayjay RedfangJan 31, 20182 votes

Really getting tired of seeing the same style of post over and over again for this long. Increase Mana cost and cooldown on q and e.killing minions with q refunds some Mana and cooldown. This punishes her for missing combos on someone. That is all. she is not broken, she has counterplay, her kit is fine.

OleandervineJan 31, 20184 votes

Her kit really isn't though. A fine kit is someone like Lux, who, while she has shorter cooldowns compared to some mages, has to land Q, E, and R to effectively kill you. Zoe has to land E and then QQ to kill you, and her cooldowns are much shorter than Lux. Furthermore, Lux's skill shots have defensive and offensive uses, which gives her the problem of needing to use her spells defensively in lieu of using them for offense. Zoe doesn't have this problem at all, because her spells have primarily 1 purpose - to kill things. Her kit is flat and gimmicky, and her windows of opportunity are a lot smaller than Lux's, who has to rely on her ultimate's cooldown in order to burst someone to death. Zoe basically doesn't have a W either, which gives more reason as to why Q and E in her kit are so severely overloaded. Her kit is simply badly designed, because her flexibility is pretty non-existent, and everything is there to basically be an extension of Q, rather than spells that can operate effectively as independent tools. Zoe really needs to have her kit reworked and rebalanced, because the lack of significant damage in most of her abilities simply causes her abilities that do have damage to be overblown.

A good comparison for Zoe is someone like Zilean. Zilean has 1 offensive spell - his Q. However, his entire kit isn't just 3 different ways to set up his Q. While W is often used to double up his Q, it also affects his E, which allows him to use his utility more frequently. None of his spells are particularly overblown due to this, and he is gated by cooldowns much more significantly than Zoe is. While his kit is older in design, it's actually a good design, because his utility isn't overbearing, nor is him landing any of his spells a death sentence.

Rayjay RedfangJan 31, 20181 votes

When comparing lux to Zoe, they both have three spells in their combo to kill people. Lux has q,e,r or e,q,r and Zoe has e,r,q. In order to do her full burst like lux, she needs to use r or flash. Zoe has a shorter combo due to what her ult offers, which is a rooted blink. Without using her ult, Zoe has q,e. Q,E on Zoe hurts, but so does a lot of 2 combination spells like anivia q,e; Ahri q,e; ekko q,e etc.

Her w is a wild card spell and it makes for unique. Depending on what summoner spell you pick up, it can be used defensively, aggressively, or strategically.

With using her spells diversely, q is just used for farming and killing, w is a situational wildcard, e can be used offensively of defensively like any other cc tool. R can be used defensively and strategically. Defensively to dodge skill shots (situations vary on effectiveness), and strategically to pick up summoner shards. So this point is to argue that all her abilities are not just merely an extension of q.

Just on a side note zilean does a small amount of damage early, but once he gets some AP items, he hits Squishies like a truck. I think I hit all the points that I wanted to cover.

ShirosakMay 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rayjay Redfang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Mf5KdX9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-31T14:36:12.259+0000)

Really getting tired of seeing the same style of post over and over again for this long. Increase Mana cost and cooldown on q and e.killing minions with q refunds some Mana and cooldown. This punishes her for missing combos on someone. That is all. she is not broken, she has counterplay, her kit is fine.

Coming from unranked aram player who peaked gold, :thinking: i guess that's avg gd crusader anyway.

ParmupaevitusMar 17, 20182 votes

every reasonable post gets more downvotes than upvotes here, the demographics of this game are not the brightest

rtbf247626423May 12, 20182 votes

i agree

ShirosakMay 28, 20182 votes

I'm honestly most surprised this came from certainlyT, designer with years of experience who made very decently designed chars before, though they had the tendency to 1v9. Zoe is the kind of shit u'd expect from guy who just dropped out of college because he was watching latest summer season ecchi killers during his finals.

Laning against her is fine as you have vision on her, she cannot abuse her kit from fog because she would miss cs. Once she gets R you dodge both E and Q she still takes half ur hp with autoattack for some reason, if she rolled hextech item she can even kill you with it. 20 mins in she has oneshot on anyone but tank, hit E -> get the kill, miss E -> try again, you're miles away from danger anyway. She's manageable in lower elos as people cannot position and will often suicide with her R / trade 1:1 but the char is capable of so much more and D+ will exploit her poor design all day.

RysophageJan 31, 20181 votes

Or you could take cleanse and not stand in dumb spots when you know she's around. She has no escapes and one ability that you can deal with instead of crying.

Bouncemaster ZacJan 31, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Or you could take cleanse and not stand in dumb spots when you know she's around. She has no escapes and one ability that you can deal with instead of crying.

"no escapes"

Wrong. Bye.

RysophageJan 31, 20181 votes

No she has no escapes. When she ults she goes right back to where she was. That's not an escape. If she misses her E she's dead 100% of the time unless you're a monkey.