I don’t see a universe where Pyke is ever reasonable. He will always be too safe.

HateDaddy··32 votes·13,429 views

And this isn’t even beginning to tap into the conversation about the concept of a support having assassin tools, but the utility of a “soft engager.” In reality he does not really operate on any function other than going all-in, which there isn’t necessarily anything wrong with that since several supports operate as such. However, these supports do not have escape hatches should their engages go wrong. They also do not have a true damage executing alt. I know, I said I wouldn’t discuss the absurdity of the concept behind an assassin support - something that was obviously made to cater to 13 year old baby ragers who “can’t carry at all with support because they don’t do enough damage.” Just another example of riot simplifying the game through damage. I digress.

Pyke is too safe. His slipperiness isn’t even necessarily his most absurd feature. His healing and ult are also candidates, next to the gold he generates (even if it comes with conditions, it’s an absurd concept: it absolutely guarantees snowballing). However he is able to freely engage upon you endlessly with impunity, and the moment you attempt to engage on him or counter engage, he gets to escape should he not like what is happening. This aspect is arguably a hallmark feature of assassins, but they do not generate their health back and have the ability to all-in you a few seconds later - if they take a bad trade, it’s usually for keeps. But Pyke ignores this basic principal of assassin balance, because he practically has to. Otherwise he couldn’t support. And when you put two and two together, you realize that an assassin-support idea should have never come to fruition.

Lastly, do not take my word for it. Pyke is competing for being the most banned champion in the game, next to yasuo. He may have even surpassed it - that should say something.

47 Comments

Ralanr9 votes

Imo the reset timer on his ult is too long for how big the thing is.

Heckin Support5 votes

Not to mention even if he misses the kill by a second or so (say his target dies to an ally and then pyke ults immediately after) it still gets a reset.

C0NCH0BAR3 votes

That's not true. He gets the reset if they die during the cast animation. I believe Puke definitely needs some reworking, but let's not say false things.

FroXZenBuLLet2 votes

It's insane the rage boner people on here have for Pyke. He gets the gold if the cast animation of his ult is in progress as the enemy dies. Even if you hate the champ don't just state blantenly wrong facts (and yes Pyke needs nerfs).

MiracleMorg948 votes

I honestly wonder what Riot was on when they created this champion. They must've been drunk, high, or incredibly....use your imagination here on what insult word I want to say

He should have never been created but Riot only sees the $$$ behind the champ and not the players grievances.

D357R0Y3R6 votes

Reduce his E range by a half if he casts it in an opposite direction of a champion

like camille's E

But while pyke's too safe, damage being ridiculous is also an other problem (which is why pyke is frustrating atm, because he's the only one who doesn't die) I would like riot to fix damage because syndra having no counterplay on her combo isn't a reason to make a pyke nerf thread

Grumpig4 votes

Super easy solution, make it so his e can only be casted by point in clicking on a champion, similar to quiyana E. It keeps his bread and butter Q into Stun, but removes the ability to jump away from all trade. Also just straight up remove the heal when invis, it makes no sense to his kit, he is an assassin not a tank.

Hotarµ1 votes

Super easy solution, make it so his e can only be casted by point in clicking on a champion, similar to quiyana E. It keeps his bread and butter Q into Stun, but removes the ability to jump away from all trade.

You're going to take away a squishy champion's ability to get out of a fight? That's not a good idea.

Also just straight up remove the heal when invis, it makes no sense to his kit, he is an assassin not a tank.

Who cannot build max HP, build resistances, or heal himself otherwise.

Removing his heal would 100% destroy him unless you gave him the ability to buy health and resistances.

Eedat9 votes

Who cannot build max HP, build resistances, or heal himself otherwise.

What? He can build resistances and has ridiculous base HP

PB4UAME5 votes

The highest base, and scaling HP of any champion, and 130 motherfucking base armor, over 30 armor higher than the average of all TANKS, and over 15 armor above the next closest champion.

By base stats alone he has between 40-50% higher pEHP than any tank in the entire game.

Ralanr3 votes

Yeah because tanks are supposed to build their defenses while Pyke is supposed to be building AD.

Hotarµ1 votes

{quoted}

What? He can build resistances and has ridiculous base HP

Pyke will never build resistances until his 3rd, 4th, or 5th item, and most of the time they're not pure resistance items but rather Maw, GA, etc. So he's still squishy as hell.

And that "ridiculous" base HP that he gets is all he gets which means he gets absolutely slaughtered when the enemy has high burst.

MkLBR5 votes

Like an assassin should.

Romans VI XXIII4 votes

Who cannot build max HP, build resistances, or heal himself otherwise.

Removing his heal would 100% destroy him unless you gave him the ability to buy health and resistances.

  1. He can build resistances.

  2. He can heal with items just like any other champion. Assassins shouldn't have innate healing.

  3. He turns bonus HP into AD, so he has a passive, why does he need 2?

Hotarµ1 votes
  1. He can build resistances.

He can, but isn't going to do so until his 4th or 5th item. Building resistances any earlier significantly kneecaps his usefulness. When he finally does build those resistance items, it's pretty much never pure resistance items like Spirit Visage or Randuin's Omen, it's damage/resistance items like Maw or GA.

None of which actually make him that tanky.

  1. He can heal with items just like any other champion. Assassins shouldn't have innate healing.

Support-Assassin.

The tradeoff is that his damage output is laughably low in comparison to other assassins and even regular Enchanter supports.

  1. He turns bonus HP into AD, so he has a passive, why does he need 2?

The HP limiter and Lethality scaling act as a leash to keep him from thriving in other lanes. Both times when those leashes were circumvented (tank Pyke and solo-Pyke) they were quickly shut down.

I see your most played champion is Garen. Why should he get two passives? Surely if Garen already regens insane amounts of HP, he doesn't need the bonus armor and MR right?

Romans VI XXIII3 votes
  1. Yes I'm glad we agree he can build them and like u said he doesnt till 4th or 5th item. GOOD. He an ASSASSIN he shouldn't be building resistances other than something like Maw.

  2. He actually has very high damage, specially when considering his ult threshold. No he cant solo kill as easily as most, but he is supposed to be a "support" as well.

3.Garen does not have 2 Innate passives. Regardless 1 wrong does not constitute another wrong.

Hotarµ1 votes
  1. He actually has very high damage, specially when considering his ult threshold. No he cant solo kill as easily as most, but he is supposed to be a "support" as well.

No he doesn't, his damage is incredibly low. See this comment right here for proof.

3.Garen does not have 2 Innate passives. Regardless 1 wrong does not constitute another wrong.

1 passive ability, 1 passive on his W. They're both passives, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

My point is that plenty of champions have 2 passives, Pyke is not problematic or special because he has them as well.

Romans VI XXIII4 votes
  1. Why does he have such low damage? Oh well let's see he cant harrase very well, he is an all in champ. Typically if he goes in he gets the kill. Ud be surprised how much damage champions deal that does not result in kills. There is more to the equation than just looking at average total damage.

  2. Garens "second" passive is his the majority of his W. Pyke has 2 completely seperate passives on his innate. BIG difference.

Hotarµ1 votes
  1. Why does he have such low damage? Oh well let's see he cant harrase very well, he is an all in champ. Typically if he goes in he gets the kill. Ud be surprised how much damage champions deal that does not result in kills. There is more to the equation than just looking at average total damage.

You speficially said "He actually has very high damage," which he does not, as my comment shows. His only form of "damage" is finishing people off with his ultimate, he cleans up after others. That's where the "equation" starts and ends.

  1. Garens "second" passive is his the majority of his W. Pyke has 2 completely seperate passives on his innate. BIG difference.

1 - It's still a bonus effect.

2 - Pyke rarely builds HP anyway, have you seen some of his most common builds? That passive is to make things like Edge of Night and Targon's Brace more efficient. His core build will still always be something like Duskblade/Youmuu's/Coin/Mobility Boots/GA/Death's Dance.

In 99% of scenarios Pyke isn't getting more than 10 AD from that passive. Again, it's more of a leash than anything else, it's to keep Pyke in check.

Zero Shingetsu3 votes

{quoted}

He can, but isn't going to do so until his 4th or 5th item. Building resistances any earlier significantly kneecaps his usefulness. When he finally does build those resistance items, it's pretty much never pure resistance items like Spirit Visage or Randuin's Omen, it's damage/resistance items like Maw or GA.

None of which actually make him that tanky.

Support-Assassin.

The tradeoff is that his damage output is laughably low in comparison to other assassins and even regular Enchanter supports.

The HP limiter and Lethality scaling act as a leash to keep him from thriving in other lanes. Both times when those leashes were circumvented (tank Pyke and solo-Pyke) they were quickly shut down.

I see your most played champion is Garen. Why should he get two passives? Surely if Garen already regens insane amounts of HP, he doesn't need the bonus armor and MR right?

I'm sorry, but that ult isn't "laughably low" damage output. The rest of his damage, I can agree with. But given that his ult is basically handing him a wipe every time he walks into a teamfight, I'd say his threat level is at least on par with any other assassin in the game.

A Frisky Jacket2 votes

{quoted}

Support-Assassin.

The tradeoff is that his damage output is laughably low in comparison to other assassins and even regular Enchanter supports.

The HP limiter and Lethality scaling act as a leash to keep him from thriving in other lanes. Both times when those leashes were circumvented (tank Pyke and solo-Pyke) they were quickly shut down.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/middle

yea thats a healthy mid winrate for a SUPPORT -_-

Hotarµ1 votes

It's sad that you're actually trying to use that as evidence for him being broken.

Three things.

1 - 0.7% playrate. So even if that winrate was accurate (which it's not, I'll explain in point 2/3) it's ultimately irrelevant as it's such a laughably low rate. By that logic, Kled is broken because he's got a 59.76% winrate in the Support role, right? If that's the way we're doing things now?

2 - Look at your sample size before citing things as evidence. "4,943 matches (Last 2 days)" is way too low to make any assumptions, and again I refer you to that Kled comment. Low playrate + high winrate is not enough information to go off of in terms of buffing or nerfing.

3 - As someone who actually plays Pyke and interacts with Pyke mains frequently, Pyke mid is more reliant on his laner misplaying than anything else. Any competent laner knows how to shut him down, zone him out of CS, and stop him from roaming. Pyke mid, Pyke top, and Pyke jungle are not consistently good anymore.

A Frisky Jacket3 votes

First, i'd like to point out that you never addressed how the win rate was inaccurate in your second point, you just restated your first point that you believed the sample size to be to low. So, points deducted for stating the same argument twice but claiming it to be two different arguments. But i guess you can have them back because you got some nice html markup formatting skills? ANYWAY, I think there's a bit of a difference between the 1000 kled games and the 5000 pyke? IDk. What WOULD be an acceptable sample size for you? Doesn't really matter honestly because of the final point, which is THE point. Pyke will punish mistake way too hard but at the same time has the tools to undo any mistakes of his own that he makes. Meanwhile his snowball potential is insane because he essentially gets 3 kills for every one kill.

Jesi Oni3 votes

Yuumi is too safe as well... With Assassin meta we will be getting more and more 'too safe' champions. Member Kaisa with free invisibility? I wonder how safe will be new adc that is going to be released soon 😜

DOUBLE TAPPED E2 votes

I member, you member?

Zero Shingetsu2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jesi Oni,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Hl3arA4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-17T12:19:01.889+0000)

Yuumi is too safe as well... With Assassin meta we will be getting more and more 'too safe' champions. Member Kaisa with free invisibility? I wonder how safe will be new adc that is going to be released soon 😜

Yuumi doesn't have near the impact on the game that Pyke does.

DOUBLE TAPPED E3 votes

...he gets to escape should he not like what is happening. This aspect is arguably a hallmark feature of assassins, but they do not generate their health back and have the ability to all-in you a few seconds later - if they take a bad trade, it’s usually for keeps.

Not saying Pyke is balanced at all. I can easily see how his particular brand of sustain can be problematic in a 2v2 lane. Just wanted to point out that actually quite a few assassins can regen HP fairly quickly, but for the most part not as brianlessly as Pyke does:

Ekko R (Balanced around being an ultimate.) Evelynn Passive healing in stealth. (Probably the closest thing to Pyke that exists right now.) Katarina/Akali+item 3146 (I'm treating Gunblade as a part of their kits since it might as well be...) Kayn E (Not including Darkin form since that turns him into more of a bruiser) Khazix W (Conditional, but can be a pretty potent heal.) Nidalee E (Not really a factor early game, and she falls off later so it's fine) Rengar W (Basically Pyke's passive but instant and with AOE damage, plus he can 1 shot you with a shoe on his left hand.)

(I'm not counting mage- / fighter-assassin hybrids such as Ahri or Irelia.)

So yeah basically half of the PURE assassins in the game have some way of regenerating lost HP fairly quickly (quickly enough to all-in you a few seconds later) after taking a poor trade.

The only ones that can't are:

Diana Fizz Kassadin Leblanc Shaco Talon Zed

This just goes to show that health regen on an assassin can be a balanced mechanic. Pyke's version just flat out is NOT BALANCED.

MiracleMorg941 votes

[{quoted}](name=caffeine abuser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Hl3arA4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-17T12:36:16.047+0000)

Not saying Pyke is balanced at all. I can easily see how his particular brand of sustain can be problematic in a 2v2 lane. Just wanted to point out that actually quite a few assassins can regen HP fairly quickly, but for the most part not as brianlessly as Pyke does:

Ekko R (Balanced around being an ultimate.) Evelynn Passive healing in stealth. (Probably the closest thing to Pyke that exists right now.) Katarina/Akali+item 3146 (I'm treating Gunblade as a part of their kits since it might as well be...) Kayn E (Not including Darkin form since that turns him into more of a bruiser) Khazix W (Conditional, but can be a pretty potent heal.) Nidalee E (Not really a factor early game, and she falls off later so it's fine) Rengar W (Basically Pyke's passive but instant and with AOE damage, plus he can 1 shot you with a shoe on his left hand.)

(I'm not counting mage- / fighter-assassin hybrids such as Ahri or Irelia.)

So yeah basically half of the PURE assassins in the game have some way of regenerating lost HP fairly quickly (quickly enough to all-in you a few seconds later) after taking a poor trade.

The only ones that can't are:

Diana Fizz Kassadin Leblanc Shaco Talon Zed

This just goes to show that health regen on an assassin can be a balanced mechanic. Pyke's version just flat out is NOT BALANCED.

Diana is not an assassin. She's a Diver.

Trist mid opop1 votes

[{quoted}](name=caffeine abuser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Hl3arA4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-17T12:36:16.047+0000)

Not saying Pyke is balanced at all. I can easily see how his particular brand of sustain can be problematic in a 2v2 lane. Just wanted to point out that actually quite a few assassins can regen HP fairly quickly, but for the most part not as brianlessly as Pyke does:

Ekko R (Balanced around being an ultimate.) Evelynn Passive healing in stealth. (Probably the closest thing to Pyke that exists right now.) Katarina/Akali+item 3146 (I'm treating Gunblade as a part of their kits since it might as well be...) Kayn E (Not including Darkin form since that turns him into more of a bruiser) Khazix W (Conditional, but can be a pretty potent heal.) Nidalee E (Not really a factor early game, and she falls off later so it's fine) Rengar W (Basically Pyke's passive but instant and with AOE damage, plus he can 1 shot you with a shoe on his left hand.)

(I'm not counting mage- / fighter-assassin hybrids such as Ahri or Irelia.)

So yeah basically half of the PURE assassins in the game have some way of regenerating lost HP fairly quickly (quickly enough to all-in you a few seconds later) after taking a poor trade.

The only ones that can't are:

Diana Fizz Kassadin Leblanc Shaco Talon Zed

This just goes to show that health regen on an assassin can be a balanced mechanic. Pyke's version just flat out is NOT BALANCED.

Talon Q heals

Mrs Qtpie3 votes

Riot: BUT THE SKIN SALES THOUGH!

Daddy Ants3 votes

{quoted}

Lastly, do not take my word for it. Pyke is competing for being the most banned champion in the game, next to yasuo. He may have even surpassed it - that should say something.

He has surpassed Yasuo.

OP.GG is reporting a 66% ban rate.

Support Position2 votes

A small way to make him less safe and actually die is pull what their doing to tahm on pbe right now. And give it to pyke instead, a champion that should be getting it... Stop touching my poor Tahm :(

Bârd1 votes

Make the dash component of Pyke's E targeted, same as Fizz and Qiyana minus the instant damage.

That way he can't E into position for a Q and he actually has to do something fancy to E to escape.

HoldMyPlank1 votes

Put a cast timer on E when he presses R.

sp4411 votes

Make it so that he can't cast his W unless out of combat.

There, fixed. Now if he gets in a fix, he either needs to use his E cleverly or git gud. No more getting jumped by 3 people and just swimming to safety.

While we're at it, make his Grey Health only heal when out of Combat as well.

Hayaishi21 votes

Pyke doesn't see pro play so he's balanced.

balancng aroubd pro play its such a good idea.

Câméron1 votes

Rakan as well.

LightswornLance1 votes

me play soraka me lose to hard engage support me angery [zombie-brand-facepalm]

TheSingularity1 votes

Easy solutions: Remove double gold on R He can only heal outside of combat His ult window is reduced to 4 seconds

Illabethe1 votes

Yet he averages more deaths than any other assassin in the game, about the same as any support, and more than most junglers.

"Safe"

Safe must mean...... dies a lot. Regularly.

General Esdeath 1 votes

If Pyke didn't heal ridiculous amounts while in his speedy boy W he'd be a bit better in terms of safety. Like if he had to slowly creepy away while invisible and hope nobody ignited him or runs up to him.

Busty Demon1 votes

I don't understand how everyone keeps saying that pyke is too safe and ignores the fact that yummi is an afk champ. Like they stay hidden 80% of the time and hops off any champ with 0 cd.

The only thing broken about pyke is that buff to his ult that was uneeded. Like why get 600 Gold on solo kill. What's the point? Pyke passive isn't the issue. Pyke's problem is his ult. I don't understand people's mentality of "if am not playing this champ, he deserves to be nerfed."

MorgManBasher2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demon,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7Hl3arA4,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-09-18T08:29:45.806+0000)

I don't understand how everyone keeps saying that pyke is too safe and ignores the fact that yummi is an afk champ. Like they stay hidden 80% of the time and hops off any champ with 0 cd.

The only thing broken about pyke is that buff to his ult that was uneeded. Like why get 600 Gold on solo kill. What's the point? Pyke passive isn't the issue. Pyke's problem is his ult. I don't understand people's mentality of "if am not playing this champ, he deserves to be nerfed."

So you are saying pyke isn't safe because there is a safer support... that's some really bad reasoning.

Busty Demon1 votes

I am just saying I don't see that his kit is that broken.The only thing he didn't need was getting double gold on a solo excute while playing supp. People complaining about his passive more than the fact he finishes his build before anyone with just an R is same as saying yummi has 0 cd on w, she is so slippery and can escape by jumping from one champ to another is unhealthy and need to be punished. It's not like his kit is all point and click and with good positioning, you can sidestep his e and q making him absolutely usless. His R is the problem not his passive.

Lauchmelder1 votes

I dislike Yuumi but at least she's not gonna execute me. I don't mind her being safe that much because she does fuck all in an actual 1v1.

3ternalkarma1 votes

i mean... you could just make it so if Pyke Es away from a champion and it doesnt go through anyone on the first half it doesnt stun <_<

Linna Excel1 votes

Pyke was never intended to be reasonable. He exists because assassin mids can't take 5 minutes to learn how to play Janna or Soraka or Sona.

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